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Thread: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

  1. #1
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    Default Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    I apologize if this has already been posted and I missed it.

    Looks like a perfect boat for Family BoatBuilding events, smaller sailing clubs, or just as a DIY project:

    http://opengoose.com/plans/oz-goose-2016-plan-now-available-from-our-agents/

    What do you think?

    Thanks, Carl

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Cramer View Post
    I apologize if this has already been posted and I missed it.

    Looks like a perfect boat for Family BoatBuilding events, smaller sailing clubs, or just as a DIY project:

    http://opengoose.com/plans/oz-goose-2016-plan-now-available-from-our-agents/

    What do you think?

    Thanks, Carl
    Agreed. It has been used that way for events in the Phillipines, where Mik now resides, as I understand it.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/opengoose/

    oz goose is working really well in the phillipines.

    mik has ply, cutting files, sails, all sorted ready to import sets of 10 or what ever.

    would be great carl to give the project a push at the us end

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    I've not sailed one of the 12' Goose-boats. But own hull #77 of the original 8' PDR. I was a very reluctant builder, but soon discovered how capable they are.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    One aspect of the boat is the surprising speed. Over the past two years the peak speed has been raised from 12 knots to 13 knots. It is currently at 13.8

    Helpfully the records were all set on tideless freshwater lakes in Texas and the Philippines.


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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    The boat sails very well with three adults aboard. And has good sensitivity and speed even in light winds.

    We use the boats for teaching. And some of the best teaching is in the patchy morning breezes from April to October in the Philippines.

    The boats behave very well even when heeled under pressure. There is no helm load to speak of and pace is good.



    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    In the Philippines we have had two group builds.

    This is significant because sailing is considered something that only wealthy people do.

    With some sponsorship help we can get the price of building ten Oz Geese down to the price of importing one Laser Radial and enough spares for a couple of seasons.



    This photo is last year's 11 boat build in Cebu. The previous year there was a 10 boat build on Taal Lake, just south of Manila. There are now 28 Oz Geese in the Philippines. Another 10 will be built this year at a resort on the island of Palawan.



    This allows the growing middle class to become involved in sailing. You almost never see a Laser in the Philippines. Most racing is in Hobie 16s so the Goose is allowing new people to participate in the past time.

    That is 10 to 20 people on the water for the price of a Laser. Two person crews are able to mix it with singlehanders in club racing at the Taal Lake Yacht Club. This has attracted members of the Philippines Paralympic team into joining us for racing events.



    This might give some perspective on the possibilities in developing nations.

    http://opengoose.com/places/philippi...s-philippines/

    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Oz Goose National Titles 2017

    We have just put together the video for the first ever Philippines National Championship for the Oz Goose Class.

    It was sponsored by Hyde Sails International.



    17 boats, 8 races in the two days, with 45 sailing participants. We sailed the boats two up to maximise participation and swapped beginning sailors in and out of boats so everyone got their first taste of racing.

    We are having another group build in February at the yacht club that ran the event. They want to build the size of the goose fleet and introduce collegiate sailing in the Philippines.

    Best wishes to All

    Michael

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Michael I salute the focussed engineering and material efficiency of these boats and they look like simple fun. All in a good way.

    From a standpoint of naval architecture, could you elaborate as much as you can on the performace in waves. Given the restrictions of the shape, what sort of entry angle can be achieved when flat and when heeled? I can understand that the relative symmetrical ends will give a balanced boat, the flat sections a planing potential etc, all good in more flatter water but most planing boats have a 'pointy triangular front' to attempt to reduce wavemakeing resistance at low to moderate speeds. I'm not being critical, just wishing to understand how they go in short wind over chop waves and what the lines flat and healed look like. Does the entry angle reduce at 20-30 degrees heel for upwind ~ F3 working those conditions. How much spray is produced? Does the effectively wide 'super' pram bow give large flare over the water line forward and effectively deflect spray?

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Oz Goose National Titles 2017

    We have just put together the video for the first ever Philippines National Championship for the Oz Goose Class.

    It was sponsored by Hyde Sails International.



    17 boats, 8 races in the two days, with 45 sailing participants. We sailed the boats two up to maximise participation and swapped beginning sailors in and out of boats so everyone got their first taste of racing.

    We are having another group build in February at the yacht club that ran the event. They want to build the size of the goose fleet and introduce collegiate sailing in the Philippines.

    Best wishes to All

    Michael
    Great work!

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Michael I salute the focussed engineering and material efficiency of these boats and they look like simple fun. All in a good way.

    From a standpoint of naval architecture, could you elaborate as much as you can on the performace in waves.
    Some nice questions here Edward. It has also been a course of discovery about this type of boat which I was originally very sceptical about in its 8ft form.

    It worked and worked well with the hullform handling the 82 or 89sq ft sailplan with ease into stronger winds without any significant vices. The boats have enormous stability that allows full use of the large sail area and a handling mistake won't usually dump you in the water either.

    I then drew up the 12ft Oz Goose kindof envisioning it as a hull using all the 8 footer's running gear to take the family out sometimes. Despite quotes that the 8 footer has a static displacement allowing 600lbs of payload, this is wrong because it settles down in its wave trough and starts dragging the ends.

    Ian Henehan of Texas made us aware that the Goose was performing waaaay better than expected as he recorded maximum speeds of 11 then 12 and 12.9 knots ... This opened my eyes that the behaviour of the longer boat was dramatically different to the 8 footer.

    I met Ian at Sail Oklahoma around four years ago and was very surprised at both average speeds and peak speeds he was logging in very moderate conditions.

    I added to those later with peak speeds of 13.8 and later 18 knots for 2 seconds (on a crazy day when racing was cancelled)

    [QUOTE] Given the restrictions of the shape, what sort of entry angle can be achieved when flat and when heeled? [/QUOTE}

    Entry angles really are an artefact of when bows were much more immersed than they are now. The lateral measurement of half bow angle is relevant for that type.



    But for shallow types there is another bow angle, which is the angle of the underside of the bow, which is frequently much finer than the lateral measurement. Which is not the case for the more traditional hullform.



    So we see that a lot of fast boats, even keelboats have their bow clear of the water to make use of the finer lines of the bottom entry angle. Bolger wrote about it too.



    Incidentally the lateral angle for the goose is the side angle .. which is zero. Though that is altered by leeway (as it is for all boats).

    In the case of the Goose the entry angle for bottom panel is less than 7 degrees. Once the waveform builds up around the boat this is reduced significantly. Whether it is important that it is reduced by the waveform ... I don't have a clue. It is just an observation of what happens.

    I can understand that the relative symmetrical ends will give a balanced boat, the flat sections a planing potential etc, all good in more flatter water but most planing boats have a 'pointy triangular front' to attempt to reduce wavemaking resistance at low to moderate speeds.
    I think that is covered. But just to grab a couple more examples. Light scows are well known for speed. If the lateral entry angle is projected from the waterlines the entry angle looks ridiculously large - near 90 degrees depending on the lateral curvature of the bottom.

    But the boats are not slouches on any point of sail. The heel the big scows of course which gives an asymmetric waterline - narrow to leeward of the most forward point, but still quite wide on the windward side.



    ---End part 1 --- (reached image limitation)

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    --- Continued ---

    On the other end of the scale is the Australian Scow moth, now superseded by hydrofoil boat. But in its highest form of evolution this 11ft boat with 85sq ft of sail and hullweight of around 40 lbs (in plywood) ...



    Would consistently outperform the more conventionally shaped Contender in champion of champion regattas (best two boats of each class compete against each other in Oz in the '80s). This is despite the "more conventional" hullshape of the Contender and its impressive stats of 16ft with 120 sq feet of sail. Basically fast boats do not look like this any more.



    Just pulling back a bit from these high performance examples, the Goose has average upwind speeds of around 4 to 5 knots which is consistent with the length of the boat and that it is body hiked without trapeze or other devices.

    Downwind the speed is also in the range for normal dinghies - weight of the Philippine version is a bit above what I would like, but over 10 knots is pretty easy downwind. Sailing at the few Lasers you see in the Philippines, the Laser is faster upwind, but downwind it depends on who gets the gust first.

    The Goose has much better handling than the Laser though. If coming down a wave face in 25+ knots and sticking the nose into the back of the wave in front (which would result in the Laser spearing off in one direction or another) it is fingertip steering with no vices whatsoever.

    For the beginning and intermediate racing sailors, even in quite extreme conditions the goose demonstrates very few capsizes despite the mistakes of inexperience we have all gone through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I'm not being critical, just wishing to understand how they go in short wind over chop waves and what the lines flat and healed look like.
    Best way to get an idea of this is to look at the boats in the video in this thread. You will see some are going quite quick upwind, while others are not. There is not a lot of spray kicking around in the upwind shots

    For a bit more speed you can see this nosedive ... a day when racing was cancelled. I had to bear away to avoid the committee boat that was filming and truly stuck the nose in. Going across the wave would have avoided that as we all know.



    Does the entry angle reduce at 20-30 degrees heel for upwind ~ F3 working those conditions. How much spray is produced? Does the effectively wide 'super' pram bow give large flare over the water line forward and effectively deflect spray?
    The boat approaches waves very differently. A bit of heel means the windward corner of the bow is well over the heights of the oncoming wave slope so they pass under the bow.



    We do have to keep the bows up as the waves get larger. But there is little slowing one up, but with two aboard there is plenty of power to smash any wave top out of the way.

    Here is me heeling a bit too much at the beginning of a gust.



    I hope this helps cover some of your questions. As you can see, for some of it I am reasonably sure of what is happening, but still working out some of the aspects.

    In the class racing we certainly are still learning the fastest way upwind - and you can see significant differences in the speeds of the different boats in the video. Some are clearly flying. But there is quite a difference between those who are "getting it" and those who are missing out on the speed band.

    One interesting thing with racing ... is that the old idea that the "bad" tack is the one with the sail to windward of the mast is completely wrong in the case of the goose. Repeatability of racing week after week (A reminder to all of us to be careful of repeated wisdom).

    Pretty much the same with "half angles" of shallow bows. It was highly relevant. But with much lighter displacements it becomes far less relevant.

    Best wishes

    Michael
    Last edited by Boatmik; 12-14-2017 at 02:36 AM.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Thank-you for the detailed response Michael. 13-14 knots is impressive, and a boat that can hold full sail in 20 knots is a great attribute.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Thank-you for the detailed response Michael. 13-14 knots is impressive, and a boat that can hold full sail in 20 knots is a great attribute.
    Both of those were a total surprise. It made me realise that a lot that I took to be design knowledge was just fashion.

    On the water is the only test.

    And surprise is the best reward as assumptions crumble.

    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Another photo argument about pointy bows ...



    Several of the mini transats are like this ... because it works.

    They have unlimited sail area, so the stability from the scow shape allows a lot more grunt.

    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    . . . the stability from the scow shape allows a lot more grunt
    From the "small boat pron" thread, in the dreaded bilge:
    Zephyr - 8' x 8'
    “. . . the greatest sail carrier for her size ever known on Port Jackson” and her reaching power made her almost unbeatable. Zephyr’s bowsprit extended 13 feet from her square stem and she carried a 13 foot long gaff, 19 ft boom, and an eight foot wide “ringtail” sail that extended the mainsail down the square runs."


    I might have to build a modern version . . . the Oz Swan, perhaps.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by DGentry View Post
    From the "small boat pron" thread, in the dreaded bilge:
    Zephyr - 8' x 8'
    “. . . the greatest sail carrier for her size ever known on Port Jackson” and her reaching power made her almost unbeatable. Zephyr’s bowsprit extended 13 feet from her square stem and she carried a 13 foot long gaff, 19 ft boom, and an eight foot wide “ringtail” sail that extended the mainsail down the square runs."


    I might have to build a modern version . . . the Oz Swan, perhaps.
    That's exactly why we put 81sq ft and then 89 sq ft on our 8ft ozracers in the beginning.

    People were playing with 35 to 55 and we thought it a great home to double it.

    Then we found the 8footers with light hills, nice homemade sails and good foils were a delight to sail and handle in any wind.

    Assumptions proved wrong a new area of exploration.

    Then we started to see the videos from Ian henehan in Texas sailing with a boatload of kids with excellent speed and a light abalanced helm for them to learn with. And Ian's top recorded speed of 12knots and later 12.9 kn

    The hullform was full of surprises. All based on the absurd stability.

    Curve the sides and it is lost.

    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    I'd like to pitch in here and comment. I sailed a couple of "Ducks", the original 8 ft boat from which the "Goose" grew and was amazed and interested in just how well those things went, and feel that while many people would question its looks, and argue about whether or not the "Goose" will perform, the boat has demonstrated that it sure does.
    Its fast, amazingly so, it handles the short of conditions that you'd expect to find when going out for a sail in a 10 ft open boat, it carries two adults with less loss of speed than you'd expect, its a lot of boat for not a lot of cost or work, and whether one agrees with its premise and looks its a very effective boat for its intended purpose.
    Mik has done an amazing job, getting two fleets built and into use in a country with culture of recreational sailing of small boats by "ordinary"" people, he's to be congratulated!

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Thanks John!

    It has been quite a voyage of discovery.

    MIK

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    What a versitile little boat. Small enough a child or two can sail. Large enough to add Mom and Dad. And really for community building.

    When the Optimist Pram was born when I was but we did not meet until 1964 when one of our Setauket Yacht Club members came back from Florida enthused about a kid's boat and evangelizing a sailing program for the next generation. My grade school shop teacher and I made all the standard unfinished parts and then the dads held a building party, getting a dozen Opti's knocked together and ready for paint. No one minded that somehow each was a little different. The moms ran up sails. Ah, the glory days of sexism. The group building was one of the greatest things ever to happen in o ur club and long after OIpti's turned into a factory built just buy the thing boat the people who'd done that first group build had a relationship with the sailing program, with their kids, and with each other than could not be matched.

    I did find that as first instructor it could be hard to discipline the short tempered Commadore's two spoiled know-it-all beasts but it's all good in the end.

    So in that spirit, I hope the Oz Goose is never licensed for other than amateur construction and kids around the world get lessons in the moring, then sail with the folks in the afternoon.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    What a versitile little boat. Small enough a child or two can sail. Large enough to add Mom and Dad. And really for community building.

    When the Optimist Pram was born when I was but we did not meet until 1964 when one of our Setauket Yacht Club members came back from Florida enthused about a kid's boat and evangelizing a sailing program for the next generation. My grade school shop teacher and I made all the standard unfinished parts and then the dads held a building party, getting a dozen Opti's knocked together and ready for paint. No one minded that somehow each was a little different. The moms ran up sails. Ah, the glory days of sexism. The group building was one of the greatest things ever to happen in o ur club and long after OIpti's turned into a factory built just buy the thing boat the people who'd done that first group build had a relationship with the sailing program, with their kids, and with each other than could not be matched.

    I did find that as first instructor it could be hard to discipline the short tempered Commadore's two spoiled know-it-all beasts but it's all good in the end.

    So in that spirit, I hope the Oz Goose is never licensed for other than amateur construction and kids around the world get lessons in the moring, then sail with the folks in the afternoon.
    As long as I've known him, Mik has been crosswise with the trend in small boating. Lamenting the arms race that has led us to ever more expensive, ever more drastically tuned boats. And which has led to the sport shrinking and shrinking. It was his unceasing pondering on the problem that led to his first genius boat - the Goat Island Skiff. Amazingly simple and inexpensive build leading to a 'real' boat. I love ours. And his quest for low-cost, high-performance boats which normal people can both enjoy and afford continues to this day. Also part of the reason he started 'Really Simple Sails'. Performance at a reasonable price... in aid of making small boat sailing accessible to a much wider audience. http://reallysimplesails.com/

    As far as the Puddle Duck Racers, and the Oz Goose variant - we should tip our cap to Phil Bolger for the design that started it. And Shorty Routh for revising and reviving that design... and turning it into a 'movement'. A developmental class that encouraged innovation. But it was Michael Storer who ran with it in a huge way. Promoting it as the potential core of a new grass-roots small boating community. It was that community that hatched the 12' 'Goose'. And once again... Mik was off and running (and reaching, and experimenting again). His prior research and experimentation on rigs, foils, etc. made all the difference between a pig of a boat, never performing up to its potential, and the exciting design it is today.

    Yeah... I know the looks are an impediment for many. They were for me. I resisted building one until my youngest son wanted a boat he could handle on his own (age 10 or so?) and not as 'racy' as the GIS. And even then... not until a buddy offered to build me a sail if I'd finish building the boat and enter it into one of the 'world championship' events. I did... hull #77 (of over 1,000)... and was still bolting on hardware and setting up the rig as my friends carried the boat to the starting line. Despite the fact that it had never seen water before that day, and despite my own skippering deficiencies (they are legion)... I managed 4th place, despite getting rammed/tangled at the start. And that was entirely due to the boat, the sail, and the fact that I built/rigged precisely to Mik's plans. I resisted the urge to 'improve things' and that trust paid off.

    So kudos to Mik. Big kudos!!! And kudos to all those who did the work along the way to continue the experiment: Bolger; Routh; Welsford; Michalak; and the whole worldwide Duck/Goose community.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Howdy,

    I have some ideas about how class rules and class association decisions have led to small boat sailing becoming elitist again.

    For a very brief time it looked like it was going to lose the elitist tag.

    But now if you want to race an optimist seriously you are up for around 600 bucks for a "black mast" in aerospace grade 7000series aluminium.

    And they Optimist is very difficult to build in wood now because the tolerances for fibreglass construction are so close that small variations in wood building are a risky process.

    In the Philippines there is a copy of the Optimist. It is an awful heavy boat made of glass because nobody in the middle class can afford the real thing.

    And that O'pen Bic thing is designed as an Opti killer coming in a few thousand under the Opti price.

    All of this is saddening for what should be a very simple timber boat that can be built in a couple of weekends for a few hundred bucks including sail - if it still was the water would be black with Optis throughout Asia.

    So that mess foisted on sailing by parents is to be avoided.

    And I have some specific ideas about that.

    Meanwhile the ability of the Goose to carry one to three adults with good sailing response is its killer app - if we can keep people oriented toward the low cost aspect.



    My beef is that technology and innovation that have made boats faster are something that has happened in the realm of IDEAS and THINKING - and can equally be applied to boats with wooden spars and laced sails as boats with carbon masts and composite sails that cost 15 to 20 times more.

    We have two selling points we use to counter the idea that sailing is elitist in the Philippines.

    To Filipinos "Build a boat for less than the price of an iPhone"

    For Westerners "We built 10 boats for the price of importing one Laser with spares - that is 10 to 20 people on the water for the price of one.

    Best Wishes
    Boatmik

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Howdy,

    I have some ideas about how class rules and class association decisions have led to small boat sailing becoming elitist again.

    For a very brief time it looked like it was going to lose the elitist tag.

    But now if you want to race an optimist seriously you are up for around 600 bucks for a "black mast" in aerospace grade 7000series aluminium.

    And they Optimist is very difficult to build in wood now because the tolerances for fibreglass construction are so close that small variations in wood building are a risky process.

    In the Philippines there is a copy of the Optimist. It is an awful heavy boat made of glass because nobody in the middle class can afford the real thing.

    And that O'pen Bic thing is designed as an Opti killer coming in a few thousand under the Opti price.

    All of this is saddening for what should be a very simple timber boat that can be built in a couple of weekends for a few hundred bucks including sail - if it still was the water would be black with Optis throughout Asia.

    So that mess foisted on sailing by parents is to be avoided.

    And I have some specific ideas about that.

    Meanwhile the ability of the Goose to carry one to three adults with good sailing response is its killer app - if we can keep people oriented toward the low cost aspect.



    My beef is that technology and innovation that have made boats faster are something that has happened in the realm of IDEAS and THINKING - and can equally be applied to boats with wooden spars and laced sails as boats with carbon masts and composite sails that cost 15 to 20 times more.

    We have two selling points we use to counter the idea that sailing is elitist in the Philippines.

    To Filipinos "Build a boat for less than the price of an iPhone"

    For Westerners "We built 10 boats for the price of importing one Laser with spares - that is 10 to 20 people on the water for the price of one.

    Best Wishes
    Boatmik
    Sadly the cost of the Opi is only half the story. Joining the squad and doing the circus costs more than the purchase price of the boat. I can’t guess the what the expenses are as they progress to more sophisticated boat. Despite the proven success as a training boat I meet many people who discredit it as a boat purely based on the hull shape and rig.

    What you have achieved in the Philippines with the Oz Goose is inspirational but in the consumer driven and image conscious UK I sadly don’t see you model working here. At the same time the biggest issue facing dinghy Sailing in the UK is dwindling participation. We have probably 30 serious racers at our club sailing about 15 different classes each choosing their class because they think it will give them an edge.

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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Great points Tink! I agree, but see things a bit differently.

    I don't have a model for world domination (by the Goose). It does what it does quite well and is easy and cheap to build. It is dead easy to sail to cover ground with few vices and easy speed, but like the Opti or Laser, it is hard to sail really really well - you have to know your stuff.

    The goose has actually flourished in the Philippines because it is OUTSIDE the sailing establishment. The establishment courted the goose because they could see something happening that had value for them. And importantly we were interested in becoming official.



    There is no model except for what has actually happened.

    With participation declining (except, interestingly in self build wooden boats - just look at this Forum ) sailing does need a revolution.

    It was kicked out of the Paralympics because not enough countries and not enough participation ... the disability classes of sailing boat have their own problem and own class of expense to get very few people sailing.

    But I'm enough of a student of history (Berlin Wall, Taiwan democracy, Overthrow of Marcos, Solidarnosc, Fall of Soviet Union) to know that years of groundwork happen before the big event occurs that everyone remembers.

    Whether the Oz Goose is part of the curve before the actual revolution and will be unremembered, or if it will be part of the visible change that is remembered - I don't know and don't really care. It does what it does. I promote it. Promotion involves working with what you have and following new openings.

    Which is all that I do with all my designs anyhow. And the reason I do it is for sailing's good and the change that people undergo when they build a boat themselves - as we also see on the Woodenboat forum - there is a personal reassessment for every builder that is really interesting and important.

    Revolutions ... if they occur ... happen from outside the establishment. "The revolution will not be Televised".

    If three or five people in the UK decide to build Oz Geese in a particular area and then go join their local club ... that might be enough as clubs are accommodating to new members that turn up regularly - but it doesn't matter if it specifically happens.

    They could even potentially already be club members that feel current boats aren't answering their needs (Goose sails about the same speed with two adults as one on windward/leeward courses and sails well with three adult's weight aboard - teaching or family sailing).

    But maybe it won't happen in the UK - but who knows? I've had nibbles from Thailand, Brazil and South Africa from people active in promoting sailing - they have one common theme - that they have been involved in sailboat racing at some point and found it wanting. The demographic changes for those countries are the same as the Philippines now or "The West" post WW2 with the rise and rapid growth of a real Middle Class with a bit more money and time to spend.

    That is why sailing boomed in our countries. Rise of middle class and inexpensive boats.

    If there are fleets of inexpensive boats in Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, India, Uruguay, Senegal then the UK might just take notice. I'm not at all saying it will happen. But it is a possiblity. Revolutionaries (even misguided ones) work away for years without any recognition )

    So how did it happen in the Philippines - very little was to do with me - a classic catalysed reaction. Everything was in place - I moved there and was already known to the group. Then Ian Henehan in Texas started putting up videos of the Oz Goose he built showing how well it sailed. And we, in the Philippines, started talking about it. As a result Roy Espritu, Joaquin Casals, Bicky Punzalan and I started building three boats.

    YOu can go back three years ago to the first videos he put up here - scroll to the bottom - I can tell you his speeds and the general carrying ability with good rate of travel were totally unexpected.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/PittsN1BZ/videos

    I posted them (and was already in the Philippines and a member of the PHBYC) - so we started talking about the Oz Goose videos and saw the potential. The yearly PHBYC Family Boatbuilding weekend was looming.

    The PHBYC - an internet group that is much like the woodenboat forum - sharing information on building boats of wood because it is inexpensive and fun. But because it is focussed in the one country it can mobilise relatively easily.

    It is not a yacht club - just an internet group - Philippines Home Boatbuilder's Yacht Club.

    The group has run Family Boatbuilding Weekends for around 10 years on a volunteer non profit basis. It is only the last three years that they have gone to to the Oz Goose and drawn the attention of the national organisations.

    We (speaking as a PHBYC member) do have one useful link ... years ago the Taal Lake Yacht Club, which is a main Hobie 16 racing club south of Manila (an hour away - clean water live volcano) allocated a little corner of their premises to the PHBYC for a boat rack and offered to run mixed fleet racing on a shorter course for any of their boats. Just one extra buoy and a starting sequence.

    That was in place before the Oz Goose came along. The Geese really were their own thing and when we took the first one to the club the club had complete doubts. They looked at it and thought WT#.

    The commodore of the club (Peter Capotosto) saw that the foils were pro quality, the sail looked well sorted and the whole thing was light. He made the observation that each airbox had the same volume as a Hobie 16 hull. But he couldn't believe it would sail OK.

    I took the goose out and Peter joined in one of the club Lasers (there are two lasers in the club - they never caught on because too expensive) out and sailed alongside me. Wind was 8 to 12 knots with occasional 15 knot gusts. Not a race ... but you know sailors.

    1/ He found that upwind the Goose was slower than the Laser but not embarrassingly slow.

    2/ We got to the top mark around the same time and headed downwind - one of the gusts hit and I picked it up before he did and was 50 metres ahead in a few seconds.

    3/ Back on shore he was grinning, impressed, but saying "what will happen upwind in the waves we get here".

    We've been sailing Geese in regular club races for three years now so that question has been answered. We've had some snorting weather and considering that much of the fleet are new sailors there's nothing like the capsize rate of people in other sailing boats. The beginners and disable sailing group can get on with building sailing skills rather than fighting the boat.



    Peter actually won the first National Championships in the Oz Goose a few weeks ago, with me in second place. We had tight starts, some close tacking duels, full tactics, but he had found a little extra pointing ability and capitalised on that by being a few metres ahead by the finish of almost every race. He spent the previous week or so practicing. I was busy moving boats around - (so next year Peter!) and third place was Job Ferranco who also practices and started sailing when he joined our group less than three years ago.

    So as Peter has seen the original 13 boats locally turn into 20 and seen fleets kicked off in the second largest city (Cebu) and a new fleet this year in Davao) and he wanted to race in a national championships he contacted PSA (The peak body for sailing) and asked what would be necessary to run a real National Championships.

    It turned out to be a bit of paperwork on his side and some quick organisation on our side to get some preliminary class rules published.

    In the Philippines, and through Asia, South America and Africa people are involved in, or aspiring to learning to sail - and also like post WW2 in the advanced economies there is now an inexpensive route into sailing. Particularly if you don't have the knowledge or confidence, or are not willing to risk expense for what might be no or a poor outcome - to buy an old boat and fix it up.

    As a lot of us know here it can be cheaper to build something from scratch compared to "fixing up".

    My final point is an observation about the Wooden boat movement.

    Competitive sailing is contracting in the advanced economies. It's heyday was the 60s and 70s where in many of the advanced economies people were building their own boats. This equated with the rise of the middle class.

    Since then sailing has been on a decline as an organised past-time. The organising bodies seem helpless to do anything about that decline. We have seen sailing dropped from the paralympics and it is likely going to be decimated for the next olympics or the ones after.

    Meanwhile we have seen a huge organic sailing movement appear of people, without any organisational membership, find ways of getting onto the water - Woodenboat, Wooden boat associations, Watercraft magazine, Texas 200, Duckworks etc etc etc.

    People have not lost their interest in the water - they just don't see that the boats that are being supported by the normal sailing organisations have any relevance to their real needs.

    But the need is still there. And maybe it can be responded to in a way that can create a true low cost social, teaching, family, picnic, racing, kids playing in boats kind of way.

    All in inexpensive self build boats.

    That's what happened in the 60s and 70s in a huge way, but everyone has forgotten that and made it too expensive.

    Let's see what happens! It going to continue to be interesting and fun whatever happens.

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 12-25-2017 at 04:57 PM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Thanks MIK, late on Christmas Day here in the UK. I will fully absorb your very detailed response and reply tomorrow. I have no doubt that your thoughts provide a credible alternative to the cheque book sailing that is prevalent even at a basic club sailing level

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Thanks too Tink,

    I hadn't appreciated the additional costs beyond the boat cost that are applied now to kids (and paid by their families) in the Opti class.

    Also ... as you can see ... you made me think! Which is often a process of putting what exists now (the randomness that it is) into some sort of form.

    MIK

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Posts
    7,713

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Just curious Mik... how would a Goose perform if her rocker profile were reversed? making the stern the bow and the bow the stern... seems she might have a bit flatter run aft for greater top speed? and the sailor could shift weight foreward in light air to bring the transom clear of the water...


    just thinking out loud...


  28. #28
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    Apr 1999
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    Hyannis, MA, USA
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    43,952

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Interesting thought Daniel. I think the idea is that with the reduced bouyancy aft the sailor can shift the bow out of the water more easily. And heeled over, the run along the lee strake is pretty flat.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    45,628

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Interesting recent article. But... journalists... sheesh --

    https://businessmirror.com.ph/oz-boa...-grand-design/
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Great points Tink! I agree, but see things a bit differently.

    I don't have a model for world domination (by the Goose). It does what it does quite well and is easy and cheap to build. It is dead easy to sail to cover ground with few vices and easy speed, but like the Opti or Laser, it is hard to sail really really well - you have to know your stuff.

    The goose has actually flourished in the Philippines because it is OUTSIDE the sailing establishment. The establishment courted the goose because they could see something happening that had value for them. And importantly we were interested in becoming official.



    There is no model except for what has actually happened.

    With participation declining (except, interestingly in self build wooden boats - just look at this Forum ) sailing does need a revolution.

    It was kicked out of the Paralympics because not enough countries and not enough participation ... the disability classes of sailing boat have their own problem and own class of expense to get very few people sailing.

    But I'm enough of a student of history (Berlin Wall, Taiwan democracy, Overthrow of Marcos, Solidarnosc, Fall of Soviet Union) to know that years of groundwork happen before the big event occurs that everyone remembers.

    Whether the Oz Goose is part of the curve before the actual revolution and will be unremembered, or if it will be part of the visible change that is remembered - I don't know and don't really care. It does what it does. I promote it. Promotion involves working with what you have and following new openings.

    Which is all that I do with all my designs anyhow. And the reason I do it is for sailing's good and the change that people undergo when they build a boat themselves - as we also see on the Woodenboat forum - there is a personal reassessment for every builder that is really interesting and important.

    Revolutions ... if they occur ... happen from outside the establishment. "The revolution will not be Televised".

    If three or five people in the UK decide to build Oz Geese in a particular area and then go join their local club ... that might be enough as clubs are accommodating to new members that turn up regularly - but it doesn't matter if it specifically happens.

    They could even potentially already be club members that feel current boats aren't answering their needs (Goose sails about the same speed with two adults as one on windward/leeward courses and sails well with three adult's weight aboard - teaching or family sailing).

    But maybe it won't happen in the UK - but who knows? I've had nibbles from Thailand, Brazil and South Africa from people active in promoting sailing - they have one common theme - that they have been involved in sailboat racing at some point and found it wanting. The demographic changes for those countries are the same as the Philippines now or "The West" post WW2 with the rise and rapid growth of a real Middle Class with a bit more money and time to spend.

    That is why sailing boomed in our countries. Rise of middle class and inexpensive boats.

    If there are fleets of inexpensive boats in Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, India, Uruguay, Senegal then the UK might just take notice. I'm not at all saying it will happen. But it is a possiblity. Revolutionaries (even misguided ones) work away for years without any recognition )

    So how did it happen in the Philippines - very little was to do with me - a classic catalysed reaction. Everything was in place - I moved there and was already known to the group. Then Ian Henehan in Texas started putting up videos of the Oz Goose he built showing how well it sailed. And we, in the Philippines, started talking about it. As a result Roy Espritu, Joaquin Casals, Bicky Punzalan and I started building three boats.

    YOu can go back three years ago to the first videos he put up here - scroll to the bottom - I can tell you his speeds and the general carrying ability with good rate of travel were totally unexpected.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/PittsN1BZ/videos

    I posted them (and was already in the Philippines and a member of the PHBYC) - so we started talking about the Oz Goose videos and saw the potential. The yearly PHBYC Family Boatbuilding weekend was looming.

    The PHBYC - an internet group that is much like the woodenboat forum - sharing information on building boats of wood because it is inexpensive and fun. But because it is focussed in the one country it can mobilise relatively easily.

    It is not a yacht club - just an internet group - Philippines Home Boatbuilder's Yacht Club.

    The group has run Family Boatbuilding Weekends for around 10 years on a volunteer non profit basis. It is only the last three years that they have gone to to the Oz Goose and drawn the attention of the national organisations.

    We (speaking as a PHBYC member) do have one useful link ... years ago the Taal Lake Yacht Club, which is a main Hobie 16 racing club south of Manila (an hour away - clean water live volcano) allocated a little corner of their premises to the PHBYC for a boat rack and offered to run mixed fleet racing on a shorter course for any of their boats. Just one extra buoy and a starting sequence.

    That was in place before the Oz Goose came along. The Geese really were their own thing and when we took the first one to the club the club had complete doubts. They looked at it and thought WT#.

    The commodore of the club (Peter Capotosto) saw that the foils were pro quality, the sail looked well sorted and the whole thing was light. He made the observation that each airbox had the same volume as a Hobie 16 hull. But he couldn't believe it would sail OK.

    I took the goose out and Peter joined in one of the club Lasers (there are two lasers in the club - they never caught on because too expensive) out and sailed alongside me. Wind was 8 to 12 knots with occasional 15 knot gusts. Not a race ... but you know sailors.

    1/ He found that upwind the Goose was slower than the Laser but not embarrassingly slow.

    2/ We got to the top mark around the same time and headed downwind - one of the gusts hit and I picked it up before he did and was 50 metres ahead in a few seconds.

    3/ Back on shore he was grinning, impressed, but saying "what will happen upwind in the waves we get here".

    We've been sailing Geese in regular club races for three years now so that question has been answered. We've had some snorting weather and considering that much of the fleet are new sailors there's nothing like the capsize rate of people in other sailing boats. The beginners and disable sailing group can get on with building sailing skills rather than fighting the boat.



    Peter actually won the first National Championships in the Oz Goose a few weeks ago, with me in second place. We had tight starts, some close tacking duels, full tactics, but he had found a little extra pointing ability and capitalised on that by being a few metres ahead by the finish of almost every race. He spent the previous week or so practicing. I was busy moving boats around - (so next year Peter!) and third place was Job Ferranco who also practices and started sailing when he joined our group less than three years ago.

    So as Peter has seen the original 13 boats locally turn into 20 and seen fleets kicked off in the second largest city (Cebu) and a new fleet this year in Davao) and he wanted to race in a national championships he contacted PSA (The peak body for sailing) and asked what would be necessary to run a real National Championships.

    It turned out to be a bit of paperwork on his side and some quick organisation on our side to get some preliminary class rules published.

    In the Philippines, and through Asia, South America and Africa people are involved in, or aspiring to learning to sail - and also like post WW2 in the advanced economies there is now an inexpensive route into sailing. Particularly if you don't have the knowledge or confidence, or are not willing to risk expense for what might be no or a poor outcome - to buy an old boat and fix it up.

    As a lot of us know here it can be cheaper to build something from scratch compared to "fixing up".

    My final point is an observation about the Wooden boat movement.

    Competitive sailing is contracting in the advanced economies. It's heyday was the 60s and 70s where in many of the advanced economies people were building their own boats. This equated with the rise of the middle class.

    Since then sailing has been on a decline as an organised past-time. The organising bodies seem helpless to do anything about that decline. We have seen sailing dropped from the paralympics and it is likely going to be decimated for the next olympics or the ones after.

    Meanwhile we have seen a huge organic sailing movement appear of people, without any organisational membership, find ways of getting onto the water - Woodenboat, Wooden boat associations, Watercraft magazine, Texas 200, Duckworks etc etc etc.

    People have not lost their interest in the water - they just don't see that the boats that are being supported by the normal sailing organisations have any relevance to their real needs.

    But the need is still there. And maybe it can be responded to in a way that can create a true low cost social, teaching, family, picnic, racing, kids playing in boats kind of way.

    All in inexpensive self build boats.

    That's what happened in the 60s and 70s in a huge way, but everyone has forgotten that and made it too expensive.

    Let's see what happens! It going to continue to be interesting and fun whatever happens.

    MIK
    Thanks for that, and may I add, people who make their boats seem to have a deeper commitment to them than people who simply buy them.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
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    591

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Just curious Mik... how would a Goose perform if her rocker profile were reversed? making the stern the bow and the bow the stern... seems she might have a bit flatter run aft for greater top speed? and the sailor could shift weight foreward in light air to bring the transom clear of the water...


    just thinking out loud...

    Hi Daniel,

    I'm not a believer in the "long flat run aft" approach.

    The advantage of some curvature there was hammered home by windsurfers and surfboards.

    A flat run means the nose will stick in.

    The 8ft Duck version has a very strong tendency to lift its nose, which is welcome. But it is speed dependent and the shorter boat jumps up and down in boatspeed. It planes, but drops off the plane very easily. Going through a gust watching a gps might look like 9 ... 5...4.5 ... 8 ... 4.5 ... 8.5.

    Almost as fast as reading it High speeds mean the bow is high up in the air, the lower ones mean the crew has to move back to stop the bottom edge of the bow transom from clipping the wave tops (never assume static displacement distance to the bow and stern bottom edges are the same as dynamic position).

    The Oz Goose is very different and is happy in the higher speed range, the nose lift effect is less, but it seems about right to keep the boat out of trouble - particularly with less experienced sailors.

    As we develop the class rules we may allow some fiddling around with the maximum rocker position.

    I'm not sure there will be any advantage in doing so. Maybe some in flat water, but the boat would lose its rough water competence and forgiveness for less experienced sailors.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    North Shore, Massachusetts
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    7,713

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Hi Daniel,

    I'm not a believer in the "long flat run aft" approach.

    The advantage of some curvature there was hammered home by windsurfers and surfboards.

    A flat run means the nose will stick in.

    The 8ft Duck version has a very strong tendency to lift its nose, which is welcome. But it is speed dependent and the shorter boat jumps up and down in boatspeed. It planes, but drops off the plane very easily. Going through a gust watching a gps might look like 9 ... 5...4.5 ... 8 ... 4.5 ... 8.5.

    Almost as fast as reading it High speeds mean the bow is high up in the air, the lower ones mean the crew has to move back to stop the bottom edge of the bow transom from clipping the wave tops (never assume static displacement distance to the bow and stern bottom edges are the same as dynamic position).

    The Oz Goose is very different and is happy in the higher speed range, the nose lift effect is less, but it seems about right to keep the boat out of trouble - particularly with less experienced sailors.

    As we develop the class rules we may allow some fiddling around with the maximum rocker position.

    I'm not sure there will be any advantage in doing so. Maybe some in flat water, but the boat would lose its rough water competence and forgiveness for less experienced sailors.

    Best wishes
    Michael
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Interesting thought Daniel. I think the idea is that with the reduced bouyancy aft the sailor can shift the bow out of the water more easily. And heeled over, the run along the lee strake is pretty flat.
    good points... I was just thinking about some of the American scows, they tend to have a very flat run forward, a kink in their rocker amidships then a very flat run aft... Not sure the goose is long enough to take advantage of this type rocker profile...

    I could totally see a sailing club or group of friends going in on building a hard chine plywood E scow type boat for club sailing, with their low compact rig and simple hull what a blast!

    Congrats on all the success your having with the goose Mik, looks like a lot of fun!




    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 12-26-2017 at 09:27 PM.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
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    591

    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Howdy Daniel,

    It was found with a number of restricted classes in Oz that a flat rocker forward and aft with a hardish kink was a bit slow through the transition between sub hull speed and fully above hull speed.

    Any curve or negative angle sucks

    Multis use kinks like that to keep the nose out - which has allowed bow volumes to totally decrease - solve the problem dynamically. Stern is pulled down to hold the nose out rather than relying on the nose volume to do the work when it is too late.



    The bows on the C class and A class cats had already become very small volume before they tried foiling.

    I suspect the longer and narrower the boat the less the sucky effect through the hullspeed transition so the kink effect makes more sense.

    For most boats minimising rocker as much as possible by shifting volume downward each side of the centreline and then having an almost circular curvature to the rocker makes the best sense.

    If the boat volumes and flattish sections in the U near the nose and centrecase mean the boat doesn't want to stick its nose in then can afford to flatten the back a bit but keeping it a bit curved makes the boat safer at high speeds.

    The Goose being shorter with a big sail well forward does need extra curvature aft to help keep the nose out.

    I'm sure a flatter run would be faster in smooth water, or reaching across the waves but I suspect an all round boat with predictable and easy higher wind handling will have a bit more rocker aft as in the Oz Goose. Just to make it easier to keep the nose out of harm's way when racing. Waves don't bother it tooooo much upwind and down.

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 12-30-2017 at 12:33 AM.

  34. #34
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    Dec 2011
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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Thanks too Tink,

    I hadn't appreciated the additional costs beyond the boat cost that are applied now to kids (and paid by their families) in the Opti class.

    Also ... as you can see ... you made me think! Which is often a process of putting what exists now (the randomness that it is) into some sort of form.

    MIK
    just to clarify the costs are not those a normal club racer would expect. My daughter is currently part of of the regional development squad which required he to compete in a qualifying regatta. She now has a winter training program comprising of land days and 6 weekends of on Water training - many in sub zero centigrade conditions. She also is wanting to do various national competitions. The cost comes from entrance fees, the training, hotels and fuel. Next year she want to get in the National Squad which is a similar format but travelling all over the country and the training camp fee is £1000 alone (sound a lot but is for about 15 days training). I am in no way complaining as she is getting some very top quality training and is totally focused and working hard. We also got a brand new boat to borrow for two years (one of only 2 given nationally). My sailing calendar looks very bleak for 2018......

  35. #35
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    Dec 2011
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    Default Re: Michael Storer's Oz Goose

    Reply to post 24
    Sorry for taking so long to reply to your post, Christmas, family and now tough cold


    MIK - It does what it does quite well and is easy and cheap to build. It is dead easy to sail to cover ground with few vices and easy speed, but like the Opti or Laser, it is hard to sail really really well - you have to know your stuff.


    ME - I think that is a big advantage, they say the reason that Optimist sailors go on to achieve success in sailing is because despite it’s simplicity you have to sail in really well, trim etc being critical, I would imagine the OZ goose requires similar skill.


    MIK - The goose has actually flourished in the Philippines because it is OUTSIDE the establishment......
    With participation declining (except, interestingly in self build wooden boats - just look at this Forum ......
    sailing does need a revolution.....


    ME - I think this is all very true. At my club for many it is all about the winning and some people chop and change classes to give themselves the best chance of winning. A skilled sailor can probably win in most boats but having the right boat for your weight is a key factor. I moved to the Streaker because I am top of the weight limit and would like to be the weight that is optimal for the Streaker. My race results are improving as a get closer to that weight, currently (well before the holidays) half way there. There have been attempts to have equalising systems, movable racks etc, but they never seam to catch on because people actually don’t want to be equal they want and advantage - perceived or real. How sensitive to weight is the goose?


    MIK - Which is all that I do with all my designs anyhow. And the reason I do it is for sailing's good and the change that people undergo when they build a boat themselves - as we also see on the Woodenboat forum - there is a personal reassessment for every builder that is really interesting and important.


    ME - true, I think however boat builders and dinghy racers are very different people. At our club there is only one other boat builder, a semi - professional IC builder. My builds, especially the Proas are meet with a degree confusion and ‘why would you even want to build a boat when you can buy something ‘better’’. I am not getting a much more positive response for my canoe, especially now it has a sail and some little outriggers. The wooden boat forum is a very special and supportive forum, I have dabbled with a few others but they have some very negative contributors who like to shout loudly.


    MIK - Revolutions ... if they occur ... happen from outside the establishment. "The revolution will not be Televised".


    ME- the last revolution was probably foiling moths, starting with one guy tinkering about. The people launching alternatives to the moth are also outside the mainstream manufacturers.


    MIK - If three or five people in the UK decide to build Oz Geese in a particular area and then go join their local club ... that might be enough as clubs are accommodating to new members that turn up regularly - but it doesn't matter if it specifically happens.


    ME - truly would be great but getting two people sufficiently outside the establishment who would want to do this would be a rare thing. One of the issues is the massive range of second hand boats available at very reasonable costs.


    MIK - That is why sailing boomed in our countries. Rise of middle class and inexpensive boats.


    ME - today’s middle classes are working harder and longer than their predecessors in post war Dinghy boom and have many other family commitments associated with being middle class. There children have a great deal of other opportunities for sport and leisure which dilute the time they get to sail until it falls by the wayside.
    I love the success you are having in the Philippines but as you say it is due to being outside the establishment and a response to the vacuum the lack of sailing opportunities. I would love to organise a OZ goose family boat building weekend but as I American very content with mu Streaker don’t suppose I ever will.


    MIK - Competitive sailing is contracting in the advanced economies.


    ME - we have increased our membership by 10% this year but it has taken a LOT of effort by many people, try a sail day - ideal weather, and they a lot of training.


    MIK - Let's see what happens! It going to continue to be interesting and fun whatever happens.


    ME - I wish you all the best in this journey where ever it leads you. Hopefully you will also find time to look at a 12ft GIS, I have asked before and you have said you are never happy with the design.


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