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Thread: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    There's a 3 cyclinder heat exchanger cooled 3JH25 Yanmar with gearbox at 200hrs here at Ł2595.



    http://www.marineenterprisesltd.co.uk/

    Might be good value with the pound devaluation. Say they ship worldwide...

    SKB....they've got some 20 & 30hp ex lifeboat Sabb's in, any experience with the bigger ones?

    That’s a great site Ed, thanks for the link. The Yanmar looks a bit heavy but it’s a great price and I’ll spend some time tomorrow going through the site itself, it looks well worth an explore
    Larks

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Craftsman diesel is a newish supplier of Mitsubishi based blocks, assembled with their own marine parts in Holland, prices are below Vetus (same engine block) and the spares are cheaper than vetus on my last check. There was a Oz supplier with a video on Utube. The CM16 twin looks about right.
    I had a Bukh 10 single in my 28ft Ferro Hartley, (7 tons) and it was fine. Did throw a large prop, but had no prblem keeping way on going through the straights of Gib with a Levater blowing and short steep seas, nor pushing out of a estuary/river mouth with a hard tide against us.
    A 20 triple might run a bit smoother than a smaller twin, but i find the price increase percentage will be above the performance percentage in comparison.
    Reading through "Yacht Cruising" by Claud Worth, his calculations for hp on a H28 would suggest an engine of 3.25hp.
    That’s a terrific lead, thank you. I see that Craftsman are about an hour up the road from my home in Queensland, I’ll give them a call/email and see what their pricing is like.
    Larks

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    The pictured Saab is a 2jhr and weighs 370kg without gearbox. Has 1880cmc for 30HP at 1900rpm. With the pictured Hurth gearbox it will need a 20"x16"RH propeller. It also does not have a heat exchanger since the lifeboat engines were fitted with keel coolers.

    Larks before deciding to buy check your access space for mantainance. The Lombardini has a side mounted oil filter and the seawater pump is in the back (cam driven). The oil change pump is also in the back. They can all be relocated of course but it costs extra. There are also two instrument panel options beside the standard digital one. Here a link with good photos and a price: http://mobile.nauticshop24.de/item/3130343631

    P.S. The Craftsman Mitsubishi is a indirect injection type, the Lombardini is direct injection. Weight with transmission is similar (98 and 99kg). Here the price is different 1000 euros more for the Craftsman, but that means nothing for you.
    Last edited by Rumars; 01-09-2017 at 10:28 AM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Ed, never owned a sabb, but been aboard several boats fitted with them, generally well liked by owners. Heavy by modern standards, but will run for days on end,or until oil service needed. Vetus told me i could run the new series non stop for 250 hours between oil changes.
    There is a Sabb 22 for sale locally for just over a grand, complete with shaft and prop, but i would need to build a hefty boat to fit it in!
    The 30hp is hand crankable if you have a sound back, not as easy to start as a Lister JP3, but doable. Sabb say the 30 is suitable as an auxillary in boats up to 55ft, can throw a good size prop. Ian

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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    If you look on the marine enterprise site, they also supply new Thornycroft brand, based on Mitsubishi also. Cheaper than the Craftsman, but ancillary spares might not be as good as a dealer one hour up the road!

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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    whatever rocks your boat

  7. #42
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    The pictured Saab is a 2jhr and weighs 370kg without gearbox. Has 1880cmc for 30HP at 1900rpm. With the pictured Hurth gearbox it will need a 20"x16"RH propeller. It also does not have a heat exchanger since the lifeboat engines were fitted with keel coolers.

    Larks before deciding to buy check your access space for mantainance. The Lombardini has a side mounted oil filter and the seawater pump is in the back (cam driven). The oil change pump is also in the back. They can all be relocated of course but it costs extra. There are also two instrument panel options beside the standard digital one. Here a link with good photos and a price: http://mobile.nauticshop24.de/item/3130343631

    P.S. The Craftsman Mitsubishi is a indirect injection type, the Lombardini is direct injection. Weight with transmission is similar (98 and 99kg). Here the price is different 1000 euros more for the Craftsman, but that means nothing for you.
    Thanks Rumars, I hadn’t picked up on the fuel injection, so much appreciated. I’m probably most interested in the Lombardini at the moment, pending updated pricing which I’m waiting on. Access won’t be a problem as I’m rebuilding the boat from bare hull up http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ild&highlight= .

    I’ve been working away from home for a few years now so she’s sat idle for too long but I plan to get back into her in a couple of months when my current contract finishes up. Hence I need to decide on the motor and get it on the way so that I can include any access issues in the fit out plan accordingly.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?


    I’ll be sticking with new for this fit out Paul, but that web site has a few other things of interest for other “potential” projects.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    If you look on the marine enterprise site, they also supply new Thornycroft brand, based on Mitsubishi also. Cheaper than the Craftsman, but ancillary spares might not be as good as a dealer one hour up the road!
    agreed
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Nice boat Larks. I would say that right now the Lombardini is the most modern of the commonly installed inboards. The next step would be a Mercedes Smart motor. 40HP in a 121kg package (including transmission) with a titanium heat exchanger. Pricetag is 10196,40 Euros (sans VAT for export 8790 euros).
    The Lombardini is a direct injected engine with unit injectors. The timing belt is good for 5000 hours. The water injected exhaust collector is stainless steel some say it should be checked after 7 years. Alternator is a standard one from a Fiat.
    The indirect injection of the Mitsubishi would give you a quieter and smoother running engine for a increase in fuel consumption. It uses a standard Bosh fuel pump. Craftsman says they use a bronze exhaust collector so no problems there. Their raw water pump is belt driven.
    Pluses and minuses as usual. If the Mitsubishi is cheaper I see no problem in using one.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Nice boat Larks. I would say that right now the Lombardini is the most modern of the commonly installed inboards. The next step would be a Mercedes Smart motor. 40HP in a 121kg package (including transmission) with a titanium heat exchanger. Pricetag is 10196,40 Euros (sans VAT for export 8790 euros).
    The Lombardini is a direct injected engine with unit injectors. The timing belt is good for 5000 hours. The water injected exhaust collector is stainless steel some say it should be checked after 7 years. Alternator is a standard one from a Fiat.
    The indirect injection of the Mitsubishi would give you a quieter and smoother running engine for a increase in fuel consumption. It uses a standard Bosh fuel pump. Craftsman says they use a bronze exhaust collector so no problems there. Their raw water pump is belt driven.
    Pluses and minuses as usual. If the Mitsubishi is cheaper I see no problem in using one.

    Thanks Rumars, I really appreciate your obviously well founded advice on this. The Lombardini seems to have one of the bigger alternators supplied as standard here in Oz at 120A, compared to any of the others that I’m looking at.

    Very interestingly and perhaps propitiously, when I’ve just gone to email the Craftsman distributor in Brisbane it turns out to be the engineering company who's Gold Coast yard I used to manage. So I rang my old boss (the owner) for a chat and it turns out he is about to also take on the Kohler distributorship, which means he’ll also be taking on Lombardini but which (if I understood him correctly) will now be sold under the Kohler brand in Oz......very handy!!!
    Larks

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    You are welcome Larks. I am not trying to steer you one way or another. Shop around, pricing may differ, someone may have a deal on something. If you get a good deal on a Mitsubishi buy it. Fuel consumption will be around 10-20% more, but for this size of engine that is negligible, under 0,5l/hour. And it will probably be quieter and smoother running.

    The 120A alternator is a bonus only if you got the batteries to match. Normally smaller vessels do not, so on smaller engines you find smaller alternators. For example to fully use the 120A alternator you would need at least 300Ah AGM's, or 340Ah gel, or 480Ah flooded lead acid batteries. Anything more than that just takes longer to charge, anything less and you are not using the full 120A because the batteries can not accept them. A 120A at full power will take some 4HP from the engine so that is another reason you don't see big alternators on small engines.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    You are welcome Larks. I am not trying to steer you one way or another. Shop around, pricing may differ, someone may have a deal on something. If you get a good deal on a Mitsubishi buy it. Fuel consumption will be around 10-20% more, but for this size of engine that is negligible, under 0,5l/hour. And it will probably be quieter and smoother running.

    The 120A alternator is a bonus only if you got the batteries to match. Normally smaller vessels do not, so on smaller engines you find smaller alternators. For example to fully use the 120A alternator you would need at least 300Ah AGM's, or 340Ah gel, or 480Ah flooded lead acid batteries. Anything more than that just takes longer to charge, anything less and you are not using the full 120A because the batteries can not accept them. A 120A at full power will take some 4HP from the engine so that is another reason you don't see big alternators on small engines.
    You are worth your weight in gold Rumars - I’m learning something new and valuable from every one of your posts (anything electrical is generally considered witchcraft to me)!!!

    It will ultimately boil down to price I feel now. I’m getting the picture that the Nanni, Vetus, Lombardini and Craftsman are falling into the ones to choose from and of those I have a direct connection to the Lombardini (Kohler) and Craftsman supplier, so I expect (hope) he will look after me.

    I’ve just received a reply from the Vetus supplier here and the price on the 2cylinder 16hp M218 is looking reasonably attractive as the first updated price (i.e. 2017 instead of 2012) that I have received back. It’s come in at $8156.00 including GST standard retail (when I decide which way to go I’ll go back looking for a trade price and will also be able to claim the 10% GST - Goods and Services Tax - back). Here’s what it includes:

    Standard package price for the M2.18 is currently $8 156.00, Including GST ex Capalaba.
    Standard package consists of complete engine with –
    Mechanical fuel injection system
    Heat exchange cooling system with gear driven seawater pump
    Coolant cooled exhaust manifold
    Seawater injection exhaust outlet elbow (40mm outlet, bronze)
    12 volt starter motor
    75 amp alternator
    Engine wiring harness
    Instrument extension harness (2 metre)
    MP10 instrument panel with key start and fault alarms including high wet exhaust temperature. (As pictured in the attached brochure)
    Set of 4 anti vibration engine mounts
    Fitted ZF12 mechanical transmission @ 2.14:1 reduction (2.63:1 optional)
    Sump emptying pump
    Remote control (Morse) cable engine end mount brackets and connections
    First fill of engine oil and coolant
    Operators handbook

    Optional Extras:
    Upgrading of the MP10 instrument panel to the MP22, which adds tacho/hourmeter and voltmeter, is an additional $556.00 Inc GST.
    Upgrading of the MP10 instrument panel to the MP34, which adds tacho/hourmeter, voltmeter oil pressure and temperature gauges, is an additional $660.00 Inc GST.
    Substitute 4 metre instrument extension cable for 2 metre is an additional $15.00 inc GST
    Substitute 6 metre instrument extension cable for 2 metre is an additional $35.00 inc GST
    Alternate transmission and saildrive options. POA.
    Second alternator mounted on engine and driven from auxiliary front crankshaft pulley. POA.
    Vetus of course also manufacture a complete range of installation components such as gear / throttle controls, exhaust systems, fuel systems, seawater systems etc. To more accurately quote these items I would need to further discuss your proposed application with you.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I was quite impressed with the spec for the Vetus M18 and the feedback i was given from an agent in the UK, however, he said he could not sell me an engine package, as it would have to come from the Swedish dealer which he arranged to contact me to answer my queries. As usual, there was a price increase for the basic engine, but i never got back a quote for all the extra installation equipment i wanted a quote for, despite 3 emails. That lead me to a local supplier of Craftsman, who actually answers questions and emails. I did write to Vetus head office with regards to customer service, and surprise surprise, no answer.
    From my limited electro-mechanical knowledge, that big alternator on the Lombardini is only going to be causing a bigger fuel use when its demand is at its peak, which is an unlikely battery bank size unless you going offshore with a lot of toys, suffice to say at a 70amp load of a smaller alternator, is no more fuel power sapping than the larger at the same amp charging rate, and that rate is usually down to how big and discharged your batteries are. I found a smart charge controller a handy thing if you only motor on occasions and for faster battery topping off, as it will allow the smaller alternator to keep putting in a high rate of amps rather than backing off as the battery recharges. Might be something to think about down the line.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Thanks Skars', the alternator issue is pretty much what Rumars advised as well but which I wasn't really aware of (actually I sort of realise now that I was but like most things electrical it wasn't something that I'd remembered until prompted) so I'm really quite interested in this advice.

    Its interesting what you say about Vetus as I had heard similar elsewhere overseas, but the guys here in Oz have always been quite proactive and helpful. I've dealt with them before through work and can't fault their service, so theirs was one of the first engines that I looked at back in 2012.

    I must say that while researching engines again, the Nanni web site is by far the most informative, useable and helpful.
    Larks

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    This page could be useful Greg ... https://www.electromaax.com/product-...ked-questions/

    What about the alternator?

    Since the acceptance rate described the maximum rate at which a battery bank can be recharged, it stands to reason that the proper size alternator can only be selected once the acceptance rate has been determined. It is wasted money to charge a battery bank that has an acceptance rate of 70 amps with a 165 amp alternator. Likewise, using a 100 amp alternator to charge a battery bank with an acceptance rate of 240 amps is pointlessly slow and inefficient. The goal is to get the output of your alternator (under actual charging conditions) to match the acceptance rate of your battery bank as closely as possible.
    Most alternator manufacturers will provide you with the output curve of the alternator you are considering under hot conditions and at a variety of speeds. An alternator rated at 150 amps will likely only put out 130 amps once it gets hot and will only do that running at full speed. Under realistic charging conditions, you may only be running your engine at 1100 – 1200 RPMs. If your alternator is belted at a 2 to 1 ratio it will be spinning at twice that speed, or 2200 – 2400 rpms then it is quite possible that 150 amp alternator is now only going to putting out 80 amps or so.
    Given this, how is it possible to get 200 to 300 amps of real charging capability? Sometimes it isn’t possible, but don’t give up too quickly. Very large alternators with outputs of 200+ amps are now quite common. Additionally, it is often very practical to use two or more alternators simultaneously to charge a single bank. Some boats are already set up to have one alternator charge the engine start battery and a second to charge the house bank. Usually the engine start battery needs little if any charging. An automatic battery bank combiner can be used to allow both alternators to charge the house bank.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  17. #52
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    You are welcome Larks. I am not trying to steer you one way or another. Shop around, pricing may differ, someone may have a deal on something. If you get a good deal on a Mitsubishi buy it. Fuel consumption will be around 10-20% more, but for this size of engine that is negligible, under 0,5l/hour. And it will probably be quieter and smoother running.

    The 120A alternator is a bonus only if you got the batteries to match. Normally smaller vessels do not, so on smaller engines you find smaller alternators. For example to fully use the 120A alternator you would need at least 300Ah AGM's, or 340Ah gel, or 480Ah flooded lead acid batteries. Anything more than that just takes longer to charge, anything less and you are not using the full 120A because the batteries can not accept them. A 120A at full power will take some 4HP from the engine so that is another reason you don't see big alternators on small engines.
    Thanks mate but can you help me? ( I hope this is OK Greg .... not too much drift ) . If the batteries are charged doesn't the alternator just spin at the load required to maintain them (the batteries), irrespective of the alternator's maximum possible charge rate ? That only being drawn if the batteries will take the charge ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    This page could be useful Greg ... https://www.electromaax.com/product-...ked-questions/

    What about the alternator?

    Since the acceptance rate described the maximum rate at which a battery bank can be recharged, it stands to reason that the proper size alternator can only be selected once the acceptance rate has been determined. It is wasted money to charge a battery bank that has an acceptance rate of 70 amps with a 165 amp alternator. Likewise, using a 100 amp alternator to charge a battery bank with an acceptance rate of 240 amps is pointlessly slow and inefficient. The goal is to get the output of your alternator (under actual charging conditions) to match the acceptance rate of your battery bank as closely as possible.
    Most alternator manufacturers will provide you with the output curve of the alternator you are considering under hot conditions and at a variety of speeds. An alternator rated at 150 amps will likely only put out 130 amps once it gets hot and will only do that running at full speed. Under realistic charging conditions, you may only be running your engine at 1100 – 1200 RPMs. If your alternator is belted at a 2 to 1 ratio it will be spinning at twice that speed, or 2200 – 2400 rpms then it is quite possible that 150 amp alternator is now only going to putting out 80 amps or so.
    Given this, how is it possible to get 200 to 300 amps of real charging capability? Sometimes it isn’t possible, but don’t give up too quickly. Very large alternators with outputs of 200+ amps are now quite common. Additionally, it is often very practical to use two or more alternators simultaneously to charge a single bank. Some boats are already set up to have one alternator charge the engine start battery and a second to charge the house bank. Usually the engine start battery needs little if any charging. An automatic battery bank combiner can be used to allow both alternators to charge the house bank.
    Thanks Peter, great info’!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Thanks mate but can you help me? ( I hope this is OK Greg .... not too much drift ) . If the batteries are charged doesn't the alternator just spin at the load required to maintain them (the batteries), irrespective of the alternator's maximum possible charge rate ? That only being drawn if the batteries will take the charge ?
    absolutely OK, I’m interested as well. I do have a couple of 12v books at home that I plan to refer to.....at some stage.... I just hadn’t picked them up in anger yet. I have “The 12 volt bible for boats” and another that I can’t remember.....maybe “The 12 volt doctor” or something like that. I should get Kate to post them up to me so that I can read through them and study up.
    Larks

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    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Thanks mate but can you help me? ( I hope this is OK Greg .... not too much drift ) . If the batteries are charged doesn't the alternator just spin at the load required to maintain them (the batteries), irrespective of the alternator's maximum possible charge rate ? That only being drawn if the batteries will take the charge ?
    Yes you are correct. However in a boat this situation would only exist if you leave the dock with charged batteries, hand cranking the engine and without any electronics on. Or if you motored a long time without using anything electric, or if you have enough solar. The reason you see large alternators in newer cars is because all of the electronics in it have to be powered. No car has 300Ah batteries but a lot have 100Ah alternators. It's the same for boats. When leaving the dock with full batteries your alternator supplies just enough current to power all of your electronics that are switched on and the power consumed by the starter motor. If you motor long enough the batteries will be full and output would be reduced to what the electronics demand. When returning to dock the alternator is suppling power to the electronics plus replacing all the power they consumed while sailing. As you said the alternator has a duty cycle dependent on rpm and temperature and in a ideal world everything would be matched. In reality we just accept the losses and slap a bigger alternator on hoping to even everything out. Its the same as installing a diesel in a sailboat.
    A diesel motor is stupid for 80% of the sailboats they are installed on, since a diesel loves constant rpm's in a narrow band (around 80% of the power) in order to be efficient. So a diesel makes sense only if you motored long streches at the motors sweet spot. For getting in and out of the dock, short motoring and battery charging a gasoline engine is better but nobody wants the gas inboard anymore so we do not see a nice small fuel injected gas inboard on the market. This results in engine overhaul times that are very low compared to the same engine in industrial use.

    Larks the pricing seems to be similar to here despite our 19% VAT. Craftsman could be lower for another 1500AUD and I predict the Lombardini list price in the same 8000AUD region. People here normally don't buy engines for listed prices they wait for discounts at boat shows so ask the guys directly if they want to give you the discount now or wait until the next boatshow . Once you decided you can work on the boat, the engine can be bought later.

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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Yes you are correct. However in a boat this situation would only exist if you leave the dock with charged batteries, hand cranking the engine and without any electronics on. Or if you motored a long time without using anything electric, or if you have enough solar. The reason you see large alternators in newer cars is because all of the electronics in it have to be powered. No car has 300Ah batteries but a lot have 100Ah alternators. It's the same for boats. When leaving the dock with full batteries your alternator supplies just enough current to power all of your electronics that are switched on and the power consumed by the starter motor. If you motor long enough the batteries will be full and output would be reduced to what the electronics demand. When returning to dock the alternator is suppling power to the electronics plus replacing all the power they consumed while sailing. As you said the alternator has a duty cycle dependent on rpm and temperature and in a ideal world everything would be matched. In reality we just accept the losses and slap a bigger alternator on hoping to even everything out. Its the same as installing a diesel in a sailboat.
    A diesel motor is stupid for 80% of the sailboats they are installed on, since a diesel loves constant rpm's in a narrow band (around 80% of the power) in order to be efficient. So a diesel makes sense only if you motored long streches at the motors sweet spot. For getting in and out of the dock, short motoring and battery charging a gasoline engine is better but nobody wants the gas inboard anymore so we do not see a nice small fuel injected gas inboard on the market. This results in engine overhaul times that are very low compared to the same engine in industrial use.

    Larks the pricing seems to be similar to here despite our 19% VAT. Craftsman could be lower for another 1500AUD and I predict the Lombardini list price in the same 8000AUD region. People here normally don't buy engines for listed prices they wait for discounts at boat shows so ask the guys directly if they want to give you the discount now or wait until the next boatshow . Once you decided you can work on the boat, the engine can be bought later.
    Yes, that’s pretty much the plan. I want to settle on the engine so that I can fabricate the engine bed to suit and design and start building the engine box framework and so on outward from there. As far as pricing and discounts, if I go with either the Craftsman or Lombardini I reckon I’ll get as good a discount as would be possible straight up anyway, whether I wait for the boat shows or not - (which are around May). I’ll be really interested to see how the prices compare to your estimates, if they are even close to them I’ll be pretty pleased and it’ll come down to which of the two to choose.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  21. #56
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Its interesting what you say about Vetus as I had heard similar elsewhere overseas, but the guys here in Oz have always been quite proactive and helpful. I've dealt with them before through work and can't fault their service, so theirs was one of the first engines that I looked at back in 2012.

    I must say that while researching engines again, the Nanni web site is by far the most informative, useable and helpful.
    i do not want to tar all Vetus dealers with the same brush, i think its a more local problem, in that some suppliers here do not answer questions or give information when asked, or in one case called me 6 months after my inquiry. That was a whole lot of money gone back to UK suppliers, must be a Swedish thing, but i mostly import everything marine related now.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Just an update on current prices (in Oz dollars excluding GST) if anyone is interested. Still waiting on a couple more yet and some have provided me with (supposedly) a trade discount whilst others appear to be standard retail. Interestingly the Yanmar, which was my original ideal but which originally seemed much more expensive than other options, appears to have come down in price and is actually looking like reasonably good value.

    We have our boat show season coming up over the next few months so I reckon there’s still some room to get these prices down a little more:

    Beta 20 (Kubota) 20hp 104kg 75A Alt $7891.00
    Yanmar 3YM20 20hp 110kg 125A Alt $8954.00
    Nanni 3.21 (Kubota) 21hp 106kg 70A Alt $9663.00
    Vetus M3.28 (Mitsubishi) 27hp 134kg 75A Alt $9,337.00
    Vetus M2.18 (Mitsubishi) 16hp 107kg 75A Alt $7,414.00
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  23. #58
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post

    Universal M3-20dB (20hp 3 cyl) - no price
    .
    I bought a new Universal in 2006.

    It's based on a Kubota 1 liter 3 cylinder.

    $6500 at the time with gearbox and "Admiral" control panel. 300+ lbs for engine and gearbox.

    ran nice and smooth, but they did a poor job "marinizing" it. They basically just took the tractor engine and mated it to the gearbox, then shot paint all over it and called it good.

    All electrical connectors were steel with light chroming.. they didn't even spring for brass. That was very upsetting.

    The paint does not stand up to the salt environment and the injector feedline tubes were getting significantly rusty even though I frequently gunned the whole thing in WD-40.


    I'm not sure any of the brands do any better these days.

    BTW, the Albin AD-2 (made in 1970) is miles better quality, and I wish I had just rebuilt it... 20hp over 500lbs for engine and gearbox.

    100 Cast Iron.. no rust anywhere....

    All electrical fittings brass

    All plumbing... bronze

    Downside is it is a 2 cylinder 1 liter and the vibration is pretty bad.
    Last edited by BrianM; 02-07-2017 at 06:00 PM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Greg, some comments that may be of help: beware of the time/cost/eases of installation equation, I bought a pair of what I assumed were Yanmar 3 cyl marine engine engines, with gearboxes, alternators, gauges, etc, at a quite reasonable price, sight unseen from Qld. Turns out they were ride on mower engines, marinised, probably John Deere, with large, heavy cast iron Chinese marine gearboxes (same weight is the engine, maybe more) some reasoable gauges, car alternators. They were good engines, 3TH72 Ithink, 970cc, 3 cyl, about 18HP at 2800RPM. The exhaust manifold looked to made in Australia, water cooled and well made. The heat exchangers were cast iron and heavy.

    What I did was to make a bell housing pattern which I got cast in aluminium and fitted a ZF 10 gearbox, much lighter! Modified the original heavy ss mounts and mounted engine of rubber isolation mounts on heavy wooden bearers. Made up a vinylester glass heat exchanger with a copper tube core, modified the original cooling pump drive (aft facing, engine, too fast) by making a drive with a small section double v belt pulley. Then attached the pump to a bracket that clamped to the drive I made, attached the existing Jabsco pump and made a large double v belt pulley for the pump, the pump now runs at a max of about 900 RPM and is forward facing for easy impeller changes. Found an alternaor with a tacho sender for the tacho. No handstart capability (yet). The engine side of the cooling sysem includes the exhaust manifold, so no danger of it rotting out, and the heatexchanger I made was of sufficient capacity for this. The engine is very smooth and reasonably quiet. Looking back at the amount of work I put into this, its just insane.

    Much better to buy a new marine engine with all the accessories, I would go for the Yanmar 3YM20 only because of parts and familiarity. My only experience with Lombardini engines were aircooled single cylinder diesels used in a fruit picking machine in the Riverland, the maker of the machines had plenty of dead engines lying around. No experience with the marine versions. The only Bukhs that I have seen were heavy, maybe too much for the aft end of a H28. Chasing the lowest price may not be wise, think of your time and maybe having to fix the thing in the future.
    the invisible man........

  25. #60
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Thats a very reasonable price on the Beta, if the Craftsman is not significantly cheaper, i think thats where i would go.

    With regards to the Albin Ad2, parts are starting to get so expensive now that many people are re-powering, rather than fixing a 40 year old motor.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I am also in a motor selection process and find it quite hard to get my hands on valid, dicriminating facts. Also funny to me, that manufacturers delivering purpose build marine engines directly to the market (as eg Yanmar or Lombardini) are not (willing to be?) cheaper than marinizing companies (like Nanni, Vetus, Sole ...) which are adding one more element to the suplliy chain.

    One minor observation: I have found, that only Nanni equips its mixing elbows with a zinc anode, all other doing nothing on this field (right?): Is this important for corrosion prevention?
    Thomas
    -----------------------------------
    panta rei

  27. #62
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I have found from experience it is best to renew the mixing elbow every 10/15 years.
    One might consider that the mixing elbow IS the anode. Trying to save it,(with zincs) may cause weird problems further in the exchanger...like those copper tubes going hinky.
    Like putting bronze plumbing on an engine made with a lot of aluminum,might come back and bite you in the butt.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    My Yanmar manual tells me to replace all the rubber hoses and the mixing elbow every 2 years.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Would you consider buying a used engine? I regularly see them around here. Frequently some of the boatyards that do a lot of reporter jobs have reconditioned ones at very attractive prices as they effectively get the core for free as part of the job.

    Just an example I recently found: https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/bpo/5964850502.html

    we've have a 2 cylinder Yanmar for 19 years now and it has been solid.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    7 years seems to be the elbow/mixer life for me.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Re engine sizing and some comments earlier about what would be suitable for the H28: for anyone who may be interested in how I calculated my engine size requirements - I found in my old files the calc’s that I’d done a few years ago leading me to be looking for 20hp.


    Sh=1.4 x √WL

    Where ‘Sh’ is the max hull speed in knots and ‘WL’ is vessel water line in feet

    S/√WL = 10.65 ÷ 3√D/Shp

    Where ‘S’ is the given speed, ‘D’ is displacement in pounds and ‘Shp’ is the horsepower required to be generated at the shaft (allowing that there will be some loss of hp through the gearbox etc.)



    D = 4 t = 8818lb (estimated - based on haul out weight pre-refit)
    WL = 26’


    Sh=1.4 x √26
    Sh=1.4 X 5.099
    Sh=7.13


    S/√26 = 10.65 ÷ 3√D/Shp
    S/5.099 = 10.65 ÷ 3√8818/Shp
    1.4 = 10.65 ÷ 3√8818/Shp
    3√8818/Shp = 10.65/1.4
    = 7.61
    8818/Shp = 7.613
    = 440
    Shp = 8818/440
    Shp = 20
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  32. #67
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by SailAR View Post
    Would you consider buying a used engine? I regularly see them around here. Frequently some of the boatyards that do a lot of reporter jobs have reconditioned ones at very attractive prices as they effectively get the core for free as part of the job.

    Just an example I recently found: https://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/bpo/5964850502.html

    we've have a 2 cylinder Yanmar for 19 years now and it has been solid.
    No, 'had that discussion here in previous posts - only interested in new for this rebuild.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  33. #68
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Larks - Have you made a decision yet as to which one you'll go with?

    I think I'm about in a similar stage with my project as you are with yours. I just ordered a Beta 25 from the dealer which I plan to install this spring. I had it narrowed down to Beta or Yanmar. They both were similarly priced. In the end, it came down to both the dealer helpfulness and the feedback I got from this forum regarding Beta, which seemed favorable. That, and I can get future parts from any Kubota dealer, which is easy around here.

    I've been figuring out electrical panels too so I've been keeping an eye on your latest threads. Thanks for sharing your project.

    Travis.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I’m still waiting on a couple of prices Travis, including the Lombardini, but at the moment I’m leaning most heavily towards the Yanmar 3YM20. The main dealer/head office for our state is just around the corner from home and the price is looking quite competitive, warranty is the best of the options and parts and service are readily available and seem to be reasonably priced.

    Our boat show season starts in a few weeks so I plan on making my final decision when I get a chance to pin the dealers down on their best price at the first boat show on the Gold Coast.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  35. #70
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Said it before, get a Yanmar and be done with it. Great reputation, guaranteed peace of mind.
    whatever rocks your boat

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