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Thread: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    The Nanni looked quite good
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  2. #72
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I think Beta were offering something like 5 year warrantee and 12 months install grace period, which is something to think about. I found for the model I was looking at though the Nanni was the smallest overall dimensions which seeing as its the same base engine i'm not really sure about, probably something about heat exchanger size???
    Size may not be as crucial for you though.
    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 02-15-2017 at 04:25 PM.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    The Nanni looked quite good
    Just had a call from Nanni, their boat show special is VERY competitive and they are offering to include the Waterlock, Strainer, Syphon Breaker, Coupling and delivery to Gold Coast in that price.......that’s worth around another $800.00, going on their previous quote.

    However - even while typing this, the Lombardini/Kohler price has come in and that’s just slightly better again.......


    So it’s become not quite as simple a decision as the “buy the Yanmar and be done with it” solution as it was looking this morning, the Nanni or Kohler/Lombardini are now looking like the best buy....it’s boiling down to:

    Yanmar 3YM20: 21hp, .854ltr disp, 125amp alt, 130kg, 600mm (h) 463mm (w) 693mm (l)
    Nanni 3.21: 21hp, .719ltr disp, 70 amp alt, 106kg, 506mm (h) 462mm (w) 659mm (l) - $30.00 less than the Yanmar - but includes Waterlock, Strainer, Syphon Breaker, Coupling
    Kohler (Lombardini) LDW702: 20hp, .666ltr disp, 120amp alt, 99kg, 522mm (h) 488mm (w) 560mm (l) - $450.00 less than Yanmar


    Edited to add - I misread the Kohler quote which didn’t include 10% GST as the others did, so it’s not quite as good a deal as the Nanni by about $350.00
    Last edited by Larks; 02-15-2017 at 10:47 PM.
    Larks

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Just had a call from Nanni, their boat show special is VERY competitive and they are offering to include the Waterlock, Strainer, Syphon Breaker, Coupling and delivery to Gold Coast in that price.......that’s worth around another $800.00, going on their previous quote.

    However - even while typing this, the Lombardini/Kohler price has come in and that’s just slightly better again.......


    So it’s become not quite as simple a decision as the “buy the Yanmar and be done with it” solution as it was looking this morning, the Nanni or Kohler/Lombardini are now looking like the best buy....it’s boiling down to:

    Yanmar 3YM20: 21hp, .854ltr disp, 125amp alt, 130kg, 600mm (h) 463mm (w) 693mm (l)
    Nanni 3.21: 21hp, .719ltr disp, 70 amp alt, 106kg, 506mm (h) 462mm (w) 659mm (l) - $30.00 less than the Yanmar - but includes Waterlock, Strainer, Syphon Breaker, Coupling
    Kohler (Lombardini) LDW702: 20hp, .666ltr disp, 120amp alt, 99kg, 522mm (h) 488mm (w) 560mm (l) - $450.00 less than Yanmar


    Edited to add - I misread the Kohler quote which didn’t include 10% GST as the others did, so it’s not quite as good a deal as the Nanni by about $350.00
    Looking at all the numbers except price, the yanmar is the least stressed on a CC to hp basis, and has 31kg more nuggetyness (yes, that is a real word ;-) ) than the Kohler.
    Is that a cast iron block and head vs alloy, or just all round more solid working parts?

    Pete
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Posted this on your other thread Larks. Jay

    The engine in "Bright Star" was Universal Atomic 5416 twin diesel that produced 16hp and weighed in at 365lbs/165.5kg. I have always wished the engine were lighter in weight. It was installed in the 1960's and gave good service but, even though it had a heat exchanger, it gave up to a perforated water jacket and was unreparable. We considered the Yanmar but, I still want less weight in the stern. It looks like the Kohler/Lombardi will be the one I will take. It produces 18HP, two more HP than the old engine and it weighs in at 99kg/218lbs which is 147lbs lighter than the old engine. That makes an amazing difference to my thinking!
    Thanks for the reference to the Kohler/Lambardini Diesel Larks! Jay

  6. #76
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Looking at all the numbers except price, the yanmar is the least stressed on a CC to hp basis, and has 31kg more nuggetyness (yes, that is a real word ;-) ) than the Kohler.
    Is that a cast iron block and head vs alloy, or just all round more solid working parts?

    Pete
    There’s an extra cylinder in there Pete, not sure that it’d add up to the extra 31kg, but it’d help - however that theory contradicts why the 3 cylinder Nanni is only 7kg heavier than the Kohler and 24kg lighter than the Yanmar.

    The Kohler 702 does have (if I’m reading between the lines correctly) a cast iron cylinder head and block (the smaller 502 has an aluminium block).

    But it also has an overhead camshaft and one reviewer elsewhere seemed to think that this is an issue on a boat - however I can’t think why.....any thoughts on that?
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    OHC's tend to be taller, so they don't fit in small spaces as well. Also, timing belts may need maintenance. A snapped cam belt = new engine.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    My Lombardini 903M was junk after 1500 hours. I had to replace the heat exchanger at around 1000 hours, also changed glow plugs, wiring harness, feed pump and alternator. The panel also is u/s.
    I am currently installing a Beta 20. The boat is Gartside 116, 10500 lbs. The old engine had too much power so 20 hp should be about right. As per the recommended 3-4 hp pr.ton.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    OHC's tend to be taller, so they don't fit in small spaces as well. Also, timing belts may need maintenance. A snapped cam belt = new engine.
    Thanks Rob, I suppose I don’t consider maintaining a cam belt as such an issue as others might, having replaced a few on other engines and cars - the Kohler shows them as a 4000 hour replacement and they look to be easy access and a relatively simple job to replace, compared to many others that I’ve had to do.

    Height wise, it is 522mm, the Nanni 506mm and the Yanmar 600mm.





    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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  10. #80
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I had some experience with a Nanni using an overhead camshaft, and the toothed belt and pulleys were not what I consider "marine grade" only a dust cover on the belt and the toothed pulleys were seriously rusted. Broken belts were common.
    A non-overhead gear driven cam is largely bullet proof.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    A pushrod engine will probably have a decompression mechanism that will be simple. not sure the same could be said of OHC. I would make sure whatever engine you have has decompression lever/levers. May give you a starting capability with a weak battery and the ability to clear the engine of water ingestion OHC is another thing to worry about, pushrod is the go here. Wouldn't have a diesel engine with an alloy head, unless an aircooled Lister. Reliability/ease of servicing at a reasonable weight/horsepower should be the criteria. Hand start is a bonus.

    Some of the other things I've done is to keep the saltwater cooling injection well away from any ferrous metals or aluminium. Make sure the flex mounts are soft. I will be attaching a flex mount to the top of the engine to hold the engine if the boat ends up laying over.
    the invisible man........

  12. #82
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Seconded on the decompression lever but I don't like the chances of finding on on a modern engine. As Adrian says , you can start an engine with an essentially flat battery with one. A hand start is another old fashioned but desirable feature .... the two go together I guess.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Have you investigated Farymann engines? I certainly like our 23 hp 2-cylinder.

    http://www.farymann.com/engines.php?page=18wMarine

  14. #84
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Said it before, get a Yanmar and be done with it. Great reputation, guaranteed peace of mind.
    On reflection, and after discussing this subject with a few people recently( now a repower is on our hopefully somewhat distant horizon), I think this is what we would look at. And resale is good with yanmar in the boat.
    Regarding decompression on a modern light motor, I don't think you'll get it. You have to rely on the starter motor. But with solar and those small jumpstart batteries you can cover most issues these days. I have a dilemma for example, should I buy a starter motor to carry as a spare for that reason....
    Even that isn't as bad as it could be , they can be bought as aftermarket now and not too expensive. The reality is that unless you hydro lock the motor you'll probably never need to worry about it.
    Last edited by John B; 02-17-2017 at 02:09 PM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Thanks for the PM JB.

    I had fixed my sights on the Yanmar when I first went through the exercise five years ago, but at that time it was the most expensive of options so, while I’m keeping a tight rein on the rebuild budget, I’ve been much more influenced by price this time around. But as the Yanmar seems to have come down slightly in price and the others have gone up slightly, the margin no longer justifies the compromise of going to another option. If I can still pick up the Yanmar at the Hobart boat show special price of $9k (or less), the weight (an extra 30kg) seems to be the Yammer’s only remaining vice.

    I’m not overly worried about the decompression lever, having had to start an 82hp Perkins at sea with a makeshift pull cord I’m very mindful of battery management and alternative means of starting an engine.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  16. #86
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Have you investigated Farymann engines? I certainly like our 23 hp 2-cylinder.

    http://www.farymann.com/engines.php?page=18wMarine
    I hadn’t heard of them Dave, but I see that the rep’ in Australia is a guy who I know and who is also in my neighbourhood, though it doesn’t look like he may have the same range available here in Oz as you do in the US. But, as much as I’m now pretty much convinced that I’ll go with the Yanmar, I’ll check them out next week when I’m back home and see what he has and how they might compare price wise etc.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  17. #87
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Thanks for the PM JB.

    I had fixed my sights on the Yanmar when I first went through the exercise five years ago, but at that time it was the most expensive of options so, while I’m keeping a tight rein on the rebuild budget, I’ve been much more influenced by price this time around. But as the Yanmar seems to have come down slightly in price and the others have gone up slightly, the margin no longer justifies the compromise of going to another option. If I can still pick up the Yanmar at the Hobart boat show special price of $9k (or less), the weight (an extra 30kg) seems to be the Yammer’s only remaining vice.

    I’m not overly worried about the decompression lever, having had to start an 82hp Perkins at sea with a makeshift pull cord I’m very mindful of battery management and alternative means of starting an engine.
    I think you've talked about the pull cord before, but I don't remember the details.
    When we first had Waione she had a Ford 1500cc petrol motor in her. It was fine but we fell into that neverending failing peripherals issue.. electrics, fuel pump, water pumps etc. I had to crank start it but didn't have a crank, so used a ratchet on an extension and socket straight onto the crankshaft pulley. There was a zen thing to it, else it bit you.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I have a 55 hp Lees marine Ford D series that just seems to keep going even though I was advised would need replacing when the boat was purchased 10 years ago.
    I do have 2 Bosch 700 CCA batteries on it though.
    It starts OK with one, but prefers 2!
    Whatever I get as replacement will be smaller, lighter, quieter, less smelly and start with only one battery.
    It stopped in the middle of the rip in Cook Strait last month coming back from Nelson.
    We were still doing 5 knots with the current, so I changed the prefilter from the tank once we got into flat water and carried on.
    I must remember to buy some diesel bug treatment snake oil when it back in stock.

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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Larks there is a great fully rebuilt Yanmar 20HP for sale here that you could probably get for nz$6k if value for money is high on the list I think the link for it is on the other page. Something else to consider is that you don't really need a huge amount of redundancy on your boat because its got sails and eventually the wind will blow you in the right direction i.e. handstarting is nice but with an averagely well maintained engine you should never need it. Uunless you plan to keep the boat for a long time then perhaps a good second hand motor is all you need.
    whatever rocks your boat

  20. #90
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Larks there is a great fully rebuilt Yanmar 20HP for sale here that you could probably get for nz$6k if value for money is high on the list I think the link for it is on the other page. Something else to consider is that you don't really need a huge amount of redundancy on your boat because its got sails and eventually the wind will blow you in the right direction i.e. handstarting is nice but with an averagely well maintained engine you should never need it. Uunless you plan to keep the boat for a long time then perhaps a good second hand motor is all you need.

    Thanks for the heads up Paul, but as I’ve said a few times here before, second hand isn’t a consideration in this case. Value and budget are certainly high on the list, but not at the cost of compromising the integrity of what I want to achieve.
    Larks

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  21. #91
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Larks, plenty of people buy boats with existing motors in other words second hand, and do just fine for their entire ownership. In my case I use my boat a lot and when it was on a mooring I would motor about 1.5 hrs per week for about 40 weeks, on the annual cruise and overnighters add in another 40 hours (which is a lot btw) so about 100 hours a year.

    Thats a lot of hours and now I'm on a marina I would halve that usage, but lets say you do 100 hours on average which really is getting up there for a small yacht. Most small diesels do about 2-2500 hours between overhauls, and some a lot longer if well looked after. I am not trying to make you buy an old motor but a fully rebuilt diesel with freshwater cooling will see out your ownership and them some. What I dont understand from your original question is what you are looking for that any new diesel will not provide.

    On the net most of the engine info and feedback on forums tend to be from those who have had issues and are looking for help, seriously for an H-28 there is no "wrong" new small diesel. I like Yanmar, but Volvo or any Kubota version is just as good, pick a colour and bargain hard. On another note you could get away with a less than 20hp and not really notice a difference, 15 or at a push 10 would still work.
    whatever rocks your boat

  22. #92
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Larks, plenty of people buy boats with existing motors in other words second hand, and do just fine for their entire ownership. In my case I use my boat a lot and when it was on a mooring I would motor about 1.5 hrs per week for about 40 weeks, on the annual cruise and overnighters add in another 40 hours (which is a lot btw) so about 100 hours a year.

    Thats a lot of hours and now I'm on a marina I would halve that usage, but lets say you do 100 hours on average which really is getting up there for a small yacht. Most small diesels do about 2-2500 hours between overhauls, and some a lot longer if well looked after. I am not trying to make you buy an old motor but a fully rebuilt diesel with freshwater cooling will see out your ownership and them some. What I dont understand from your original question is what you are looking for that any new diesel will not provide.

    On the net most of the engine info and feedback on forums tend to be from those who have had issues and are looking for help, seriously for an H-28 there is no "wrong" new small diesel. I like Yanmar, but Volvo or any Kubota version is just as good, pick a colour and bargain hard. On another note you could get away with a less than 20hp and not really notice a difference, 15 or at a push 10 would still work.
    As I had said, I was looking to hear if anyone was aware of any new products on the market since I last looked at this in 2012 and put together a spreadsheet on what I could find available and costings, as well as what sort of experiences people may have had with their new engines or issues, rumours etc and any advice, warnings or recommendations .

    When I last did this exercise I was managing a marine engineering company and was dealing daily with new and used diesel engines from 2 to 3000hp so had pretty good contact with suppliers and service agencies and so was reasonably up on what products were like and what was available, worth considering and worth avoiding. (And, not wanting to sound unappreciative of your advice Paul, but because of my job I reckon it’s fair to say that I am probably as well, if not more aware than most, of what you can get - or more specifically not get - with supposedly fully rebuilt engines...., even with OEM W6’d engines that have been operated and serviced to OEM recommendations throughout life.)

    But in the last five years or so I’ve been working more with just the bigger commercial engines so have lost touch with what’s happening in that smaller leisure market.

    I have found out from this thread and a few other enquires and contacts that there are indeed some new products on the market here in Oz and I’ve also found that some of those products that were reasonably recent to the Australian leisure market (when I last did this exercise) have had a bit more time in circulation and so there’s more information on their performance....or otherwise.

    There’s at least one brand of engine that I was quite interested in but which I’ve heard sufficient concerns about to temper that interest.

    So this exercise has definitely been well worthwhile for me and I hope, perhaps, for others who may have been taking notice of responses and suggestions.
    Last edited by Larks; 02-19-2017 at 05:31 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I've been looking at this also... and honestly, I would have expected that a small efficient gas powered water jet type setup would have picked up in general use. Also, the big bonus in my mind is, when building, no need to put shaft holes thru your keel

    Curious about this approach, if anyone has tried it

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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirc View Post
    I've been looking at this also... and honestly, I would have expected that a small efficient gas powered water jet type setup would have picked up in general use. Also, the big bonus in my mind is, when building, no need to put shaft holes thru your keel

    Curious about this approach, if anyone has tried it
    Interesting concept Dirc. When you say gas, do you mean petrol or LPG - liquid petroleum gas? Either way, neither are ideal on boats, but we do have diesel powered marine jets here and I’ve worked with them in the commercial marine industry.

    But thinking of the ones that I know, I can’t say that I can really see much advantage of one on a sail boat over a propellor: They do away with a rudder, but you need that when sailing so there’s no gain there; they’re not particularly fuel efficient; they are more costly to buy and set up; because you have both an engine and a jet unit they are heavier and they add a further complication to maintenance and repair.
    Larks

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  25. #95
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    Larks you should buy the motor you feel confortable with. Any of the listed options is equally good in my opinion, but your peace of mind is the decisive factor. The tehnical solutions chosen by the factory are secondary.

    As for refurbished motors it depends on the standard. A real "exchange motor" refurbished by the manufacturer or reputable shop should be identical to a new one. Waterpump, oilpump, injection pump, turbo should all be new. Often the auxilliaries like starter and alternator are also new, or at least refurbished with new bearings, brushes, etc. On a marine engine I would also expect a new heat exchanger, mixing ellbow and raw water pump. Such exchange engines are common for trucks and buses and come with at least 1 year warranty. Given the mileage they can achieve within a year with a 3 driver team no serious company is willing to risk its good name with shoddy work. After all they expect the customer again.
    But I agree that there also are a lot of vendors offering less quality work and I would not buy form someone whitout a good reputation. And buying from someone who is not in the business of refurbishing engines and where you can not see the machine shop is playing the lottery. I would sooner buy an old engine for nothing fully expecting to refurbish it in the shop of my choice or buy a new popular industrial engine and marinize it myself with a kit.

    I think that most sailboats are actually better served with a petrol engine but I am not aware of a small modern fuel injected petrol inboard for sailboats. They only seem to exist for skijets or as outboards and are to powerfull for small sailboats. I would love an inboard option of an E-Tec for example.

    I have seen LPG conversions in ski towing boats where the operator invested in the needed infrastructure to fuel the boats. Otherwise it's not really practical as floating LPG stations are almost unheard of.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: 20hp(ish) marine diesels - anyone recent advances/suggestions?

    I ruled out Volvo because the engine block is made in China. The Yanmar is made in the Netherlands. The Lombardini may be a good engine but the marinization isn't good enough. Too much aluminum and the wiring is added as an afterthought. Gearbox, alternator size and other options also were factors The Kubota engines have a good reputation. Nanni or Beta:=)
    Last edited by norseman; 02-22-2017 at 04:23 PM.

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