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Thread: 30 Square meter

  1. #1
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    Default 30 Square meter

    Hello!

    This is my first post because I have a question or two that I'm sure some on here will be able to answer.
    Hopefully this is the correct area of the forum.

    I am just about to return to the Uk and for the first time fancy buying a yacht. Idly browsing online I have seen a 30 for sale and really fancy it or something like it. (I own up to the fact that the one I have seen is plastic hull but teak deck, sorry! I would prefer all wood but not seen one for sale yet)
    I have sailed/raced a lot in the past but not so much recently, and never something like this.
    In the past I raced everything from Toppers to Bosuns to Wayfarers to lasers to 420s to 505s to Contessa 38s, Sigma38s to a 68ft ketch to tall ships races on big square riggers and a Fastnet as watch leader. I'm not particularly book smart or qualified though and have been spoiled enough that I have always raced/ sailed other peoples yachts so have never felt the pain of repairs, berthing fees and maintenance.

    My questions concern this.

    1. How many crew is realistic to either race or cruise it?
    2. Do those crew need to be quite competent? Is it realistically usable as a family dayboat with occasional racing and camping trips away?
    (I have two girls 10 and 12 and a wife who sails but would freely admit to mostly liking the lying on deck sunbathing.)
    3. Would I be making a terrible error to buy one as a first owned boat, and if so what would you suggest instead?
    4. I have heard that I should budget 10% of the value per year on maintenance. Is that realistic for such a yacht?

    Thanks in advance.
    Sweyn

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    I just googled them to remind me...
    As a well ballasted boat, you could probably sail them with three or more crew. But not everybodies first boat, as long, so marina fees, as well as not much room inside.
    Really a second boat for racing with a keen crew. It could well frighten your family. Might be better to go for a more family orientated boat, with creature comforts.
    As for the 10% question. How old is it and how well looked after? Quite a few people would worry about a teak deck on an older boat. Fixing it could a frightening amount of loot. A good survey will be essential.
    At least you live in a good area to find like minded souls

    Not trying to pour cold water, but my cuz kept 6 & 8 mtrs for racing and it was not cheap!
    A2

    Edit: as for 2: The only people who would want to crew would be racers, which is what these boats are.
    Last edited by Andrew2; 12-26-2016 at 12:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hi Andrew, thanks for answering.

    i hear what you are saying about a more family oriented boat, but I find it difficult to love them. I love the grace of these things. Like a baby J class.
    Not too worried about creature comforts, they are a robust bunch, more worried about the feasibility of it.
    The sail area is actually pretty small which is what made me wonder if a young crew would be ok.

    The one I have seen advertised is a 1989 and from the pics looks pretty solid, though yes I would certainly be having a full survey before purchase.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    I would post the link to the one I have seen, but I don't want to upset anybody re advertising. There only seems to be one currently for sale.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    My friend sailed in one some when a teenager. She agrees with Andrew. Me, I do think of the 30s as race oriented Skerry Cruisers. Only one of the type I have experience of is one of the larger Tumlara. There is a fellow on the forum (from Berlin I think) who has cruised the Baltic with his 2 daughters, seemingly doing very well, In (again, I think) a 22 sq, smaller quite a bit. They do go, the skinny things.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    I have spent a lot of my life's time racing meter boats from 5.5's to 12's. As a result it really like a meter boat hull as it is so responsive to both helm and sail trim. I also like to cruise so I own a boat that is a compromise between the two. We have a Common Sense Sloop. It is essentially an 6 meter with no overhangs and a bowsprit affording a sparred length of 33ft. and a beam of seven feet. This boat is equivalent to the performance of a six meter but is faster in some respects. It also is set up for comfortable cruising with a family of four or five, we race with a crew of that number as well but it is a simple boat to single hand if needed. I have posted information on these boats in the past and can give you more info if it is of interest to you.
    Jay

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    They are long and skinny and lovely to behold.Sadly this also means minimal accommodation and rather steep marina charges for the amount of space you have inside the boat.On the other hand you will always look back at the boat before you leave as it will be the best looking boat in the marina.The estimate of 10% of the boats cost as an annual expenditure is probably about right once you have the boat in decent order.Is the example under consideration in decent order?Price a new suit of sails before enthusiasm runs away with you....

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Let's really look at where you live and what you'd be really sailing. You need a tougher boat if you want to do channel sailing or family cruising. I sure would! Summer holiday to the Isle of Jersey on a hop to the French coast is a bit more than a day.

    I am more practical. Jay has truly great skills and has lived with great boats his entire life. With a boat and the balance of family, I would chose a vessel that suits more in balance with family needs and personal ambition. Ever thought of a fiberglass or wooden folkboat? It is such as a well thought out boat that gives owners most everything one would want in a near 30 square meter. The idea of a boat and using one is so far apart nowadays as childern and life make for less personal time management. It just takes a cold day and dampened spirits to turn off the most loving family. I have personally found a sailboat 30 square meters and under is ideal size regardless of what most people are making now and how most people sail currently. Any bigger vessel generally means a cost multipler and well as time away from your family chasing leaks, doing every single costly regular fixes and upgrades and even more if you pay out of pocket to have someone else do the work.



    But if I were you and lived where you lived... I would own a spidsgatter as they are small sailing ships with the look and immense joy you will only get after you sail them. (it is my real true regret i did not buy the last one offered to me). Sailing in England and along the atlantic wall in one would be a dream. You would not lose money in its purchase and generally were built to last (and are often really cared for). a squared away one will take a weekend a month in spring and summer to keep up - fold it into your time spent and she would become a wonderful holiday retreat and lifestyle.

    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 12-26-2016 at 09:31 PM.
    Self-Awareness Isn't a Magic Bullet, But It Is Step One.
    Politcal posts require a ugly boat photo with each comment. Hope i run out of photos before i run out of comments.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    I would post the link to the one I have seen, but I don't want to upset anybody re advertising. There only seems to be one currently for sale.
    Since it is not you trying to flog the boat, I don't see a problem putting a link on here. Only risk is you might alert someone who buys it from under you
    A2

  10. #10
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    The meter-type racing boats are quite easy to sail, but the dimensions are problematic for easy handling. The decks are so narrow at each end, it is a balancing act to dock and tie up. The accommodations are mainly for sails, not people, although you can make it through the night crawling in on top of a spinnaker bag. I think for the kind of cruising/sailing you envision, they are about the exact opposite of your basic requiements.
    Last edited by Dan McCosh; 12-27-2016 at 12:14 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    A couple of questions I always recommend friends ask of themselves before buying a boat with the race/cruise thought in mind:
    1. How effectively do you want to race as a family? Will back-of-the-pack finishes lead you to frustration?
    2. How adventurous is your family? Are they going to enjoy drifting down to a leeward mark trying to keep a 'chute flying in the rain and manage the sailchange for the upwind slog?
    3. How much does your family share the dream? Does your wife have the sailing bug? Introducing kids to sailing at 10/12 is awesome, but keep in mind that their interests will ​change (voice of experience here . You have a couple of precious years to set the hook of passion...use them wisely and enjoy them!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hi everybody, sorry I've been quiet. Mid escaping from Saudi Arabia!

    https://m.apolloduck.com/advert.phtml?id=461418&z=gb

    http://www.ancasta.com/boats-for-sal...Y5qZZtvdvZMUry

    This is the only one I've seen.

    Wife definately is positive, and kids I'm not worried about. They have sailed for years and are generally up for anything. It is the practicalities I'm really concerned about. Will they be strong enough to do the various roles required?

    Im lucky enough to have access to various boats of the sort people are mentioning and I full realise that they are more practical, but then a Ford Focus is more practical than an E type. That doesn't mean an E type is a bad idea. (Though, to be fair it usually is)

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Given that, my heart would say "go for it"! Keeping in mind that this will be your "first" boat and acknowledging that needs and boats change. Awesome way to start!

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    A couple of questions I always recommend friends ask of themselves before buying a boat with the race/cruise thought in mind:
    1. How effectively do you want to race as a family? Will back-of-the-pack finishes lead you to frustration?
    2. How adventurous is your family? Are they going to enjoy drifting down to a leeward mark trying to keep a 'chute flying in the rain and manage the sailchange for the upwind slog?
    3. How much does your family share the dream? Does your wife have the sailing bug? Introducing kids to sailing at 10/12 is awesome, but keep in mind that their interests will ​change (voice of experience here . You have a couple of precious years to set the hook of passion...use them wisely and enjoy them!
    You are discribing my early life, except my mother bailed when we were big enough to crew. All in dinghys and light cruisers, usually at the front...We won the designer's cup three year running, but, since the old man was the designer, gave it straight back..

    That is a lovely boat, but really only a racer. It appears that three can crew it, possibly even two, but close handling, as mentioned above, would be tricky.
    As a first boat, even with plenty of experience sailing, makes me nervous. It's in the detail. There will be lots of bits to keep you busy, or, having to pay someone to do it.
    Since the price has been reduced, humm, that might indicate something about the demand for such a boat in Cornwall.

    Hugh MacD
    Have you made an offer
    A2

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    No no, very early days. No offer or anything like it. Currently sitting in an airport departure lounge waiting to come back to the sunny UK.
    It looks to my untrained eye to be pretty solid, however that is where a survey would obviously come in.
    My wife loves the idea, my father in law who owns a few boats thinks it's pretty but absolute idiocy to go anywhere near it!
    He does have rather different ideas than me about what sailing is all about, being far more aligned with what seems to be the general consensus on this forum.
    I'm not oblivious to the fact that most people who have actually owned a boat see it as a bad idea.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Here is one of the Common Sense boats that are sneaking giant killers. Sleeps five and goes like all get out.
    Jay

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    I like Jay's boat very much. Rare jewels for sure.
    One might suggest the modern version is the Essence 33 (below) or another spirit of tradition boat that checks the boxes you and your family would want.



    My current boat is a wonderful wooden sloop. A great daysailor, international race winner, proven cruiser and large roomy cockpit. Checks much of the op original boxes but with the proper toughness to be sailed hard and put away wet. Another box that always needs to be checked especially for families and friends - crew remains dry and can get out of the wind/weather comfortably if needed.
    This boat is faster than the 5.5s in the estuary or the IODs in the bay, keeps the skipper dry at the helm and comfortably sleeps 4.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 12-28-2016 at 11:02 AM.
    Self-Awareness Isn't a Magic Bullet, But It Is Step One.
    Politcal posts require a ugly boat photo with each comment. Hope i run out of photos before i run out of comments.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    I think that the idea of a glassfibre hull with teak deck would be a positive in many ways.

    I have some history with trying to purchase a square metre boat, trying to get a syndicate together to purchase the 30 square metre boat 'Pilgrim' when it was out in Oregon a few years ago. George Fisher had just re-done his 'Hansina' at that time and wanted investors for 'Pilgrim'. I was in and one other Forumite expressed interest but the project didn't get anywhere. 'Pilgrim' was purchased by someone in Germany where she was restored and iirc won the Gold Cup this past summer. Square metre boats are rare in North America and some of those that were here were shipped back to Europe.

    I used to say that 30 squares are the boats we will get to sail in heaven. I think they are quite beautiful.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  19. #19
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Having owned a 22 sq m for some years and also sailed on a 30 sqm i can say that theyre indeed bliss to sail - especially upwind.
    My 22sq was 12.5m loa (about 41 ft) and just on 2m beam (6' 6") so once it had a bit of a heel and the waterline length came into play it dug in and sailed very high and fast. Downwind was fast too, but i just loved the way it sliced to windward. Ditto for the 30 sq, but i only crewed on that.
    anyway, on a practical note - theyre a wet boat. It doesnt take too much to get a bit of water the gunwale and then sailing newbies o'r the nervous type start to clamber upwards.
    What else? Those running backstays are a real PITA if youre just cruising and, if racing, you need an alert crew.
    Typically, they dont have a self-draining cockpit which can make any offshore work a bit uneasy.
    Accommodation is usually spartan.
    Wives tend not to like using a plastic bucket as a loo.
    People over 4'6" are not well-served with headroom.
    Apart from that, they truly are a dream to sail, and you'd have the best looking boat in the bay.
    Lots of luck.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hi Chris, I was going to ask about the running backstays. They seem to have a clever system I have not seen before?

    http://falmouth.boatshed.com/interna...at-212761.html
    You need to register to see the pics but it only takes an email address.

  21. #21
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    Hi Chris, I was going to ask about the running backstays. They seem to have a clever system I have not seen before?

    http://falmouth.boatshed.com/interna...at-212761.html
    You need to register to see the pics but it only takes an email address.


    Thanks for the link - that really is a great looking boat.
    The set-up it has for the runners is the same as I had on my boat, withe 2:1 purchase off the wire leading to the wheel winches. It's effective in racing situations but something of a nuisance when you have a cruising crowd in the cockpit. Highfield levers on the deck are sometimes used too, and when they are its not unusual to see a small person stationed in that hatch behind the tiller, just to operate the runners.
    And stating the obvious, the cockpit has only a thwart at the stern which is great when the racing crew just is standing, trimming and tacking. For cruising you'd have to find a way to accommodate family bottoms. Those cockpit coamings are not made for comfortable sitting.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  22. #22
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hi Sweyn,

    I learned my offshore sailing in 30 squares as a teenager - all wooden 'Windfall' yachts. As has been said above, they are essentially racing machines. The accommodation space is small (smaller still if the one you are interested in has a motor - ours didn't). Optimum crew for a passage race is 4, though I do recall up to 6 sometimes ! Minimum for safe handling is 3 who know what they are doing. Being designed for the Baltic, they have very low freeboard and are very wet indeed when beating in any sort of a chop.

    Beautiful boats, but I wouldn't recommend them as family boats with kids. The 50 squares, which I sailed out of Kiel as a young man, are even more fun !
    Nick

  23. #23
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    That is a great looking boat and the price looks pretty good, as well.
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  24. #24
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Chris, thanks for the reply. Yes I have been trying to work out if there is some way to organise a bit of seating on mellow cruising days!
    Hi Whameller. I have been getting a range of opinions re the number of crew required. The owner tells me he routinely cruised it with a crew of him plus one. Needed him plus two who know what they are doing for spinnaker, and him plus three to race. He says it is surprisingly dry, though whether that is only compared to other similar yachts remains to be seen.

    Hi bamamick, yes she is pretty, isn't she!? I think that is why I'm considering making my bank balance look so different...

  25. #25
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    Chris, thanks for the reply. Yes I have been trying to work out if there is some way to organise a bit of seating on mellow cruising days!
    Hi Whameller. I have been getting a range of opinions re the number of crew required. The owner tells me he routinely cruised it with a crew of him plus one. Needed him plus two who know what they are doing for spinnaker, and him plus three to race. He says it is surprisingly dry, though whether that is only compared to other similar yachts remains to be seen.

    Hi bamamick, yes she is pretty, isn't she!? I think that is why I'm considering making my bank balance look so different...
    Such a lovely boat. But she does meet most of your basic questions you set forth...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweyn View Post
    My questions concern this.

    1. How many crew is realistic to either race or cruise it?
    2. Do those crew need to be quite competent? Is it realistically usable as a family dayboat with occasional racing and camping trips away?
    (I have two girls 10 and 12 and a wife who sails but would freely admit to mostly liking the lying on deck sunbathing.)
    3. Would I be making a terrible error to buy one as a first owned boat, and if so what would you suggest instead?
    4. I have heard that I should budget 10% of the value per year on maintenance. Is that realistic for such a yacht?

    Thanks in advance.
    Sweyn
    I have sailed many 6 meters, IODs and similar boats in cold waters and wet conditions. I know she is she is not a family boat you'd want to cruise in, she lacks the comforts you'll need for great female sailing or even nice sun bathing for your wife. For a fun lovely local racer, elegant day boat and dockside small cocktail party - she would be perfect.
    Self-Awareness Isn't a Magic Bullet, But It Is Step One.
    Politcal posts require a ugly boat photo with each comment. Hope i run out of photos before i run out of comments.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hey Sweyn

    I like those boats. If I would have the choice (and the money) I would go for her. These SK30 are great sailors. They might be a bit wet in waves, but You are near the water, so the spirit of sailing is great.
    To get an Impression, how such a boat sails, please have a look at:



    I sailed with Bento two times and I believe 2 Persons are enaugh to handle a SK30. Our SK15 I sail often allone. i know many people, who sail SK30 with only 2 persons. There is not much room on bord, but I believe this could be the adventure for Your girls. There is also no toilett on board. Just everything like in the 1930's. Our SK15 "Solgun" is only 9 m long and 1,8m wide, but we lived last summer for 2 weeks on her. It was a great experience.

    Wherever You go with a sqaremeter, You get "thumbs up" from the spectators. As a daysailor it's the best You can get. Easy to sail, not to big, the sail area is good to handle.

    Regards from a SK-Sailor

    Lothar
    Last edited by Lothar; 02-16-2017 at 02:08 AM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    The Common Sense sloops displace about the same as a six meter and have a similar underbody. However, they are defiantly more versitile and comfortable than a six. The boats are surprizingly fast for their size and they can pack on more sail than a six in light airs. In fact my own boat "Red Witch" was once match raced against the R class sloop "Pirate" over a fifeen mile triangular course and beat the R by more than a half an hour. Here is the match race tropy that was awarded to Matt Walsh and the Common Sense sloop for that race.
    Jay

  28. #28
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hey Sweyn, what did you decide?
    Was it head or heart that won?
    Last edited by Chris.; 02-16-2017 at 04:10 PM. Reason: typo

  29. #29
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    Default Re: 30 Square meter

    Hi guys, thanks for posting the video Lothar, very nice!

    Both head and heart still in the game Chris.
    Decision delayed by both waiting for decent weather to properly take a look at her and catching a nasty case of pneumonia.

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