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Thread: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

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    Default Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    I have been following these two threads (A mini-faering in Newfoundland, most seaworthy amidships hull shape on rowboat) with great interest and really love the creativity of BOI's approach in designing her own rowboat.

    I could not withstand to emulate her clever way of using the butterfly concept for the panels to create my own version of this kind of boat, but I was not quite pleased with my take on it.



    So I gave up on the butterfly concept and designed a similar hull in a more conventional way with three separate panels per side. Immediately I tried to figure out a way for nesting the panels to maximize the use of the plywood sheets. It's just something I can't help.





    Just recently I came back to this panel layout and played around to see if it could still be optimized.
    This is the latest result (two sheets of 6 mm marine grade plywood 244 x 122 cm, hull: LOA = 488 cm, beam = 125 cm, midship depth = 38 cm):




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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Dang Flo-mo, where's the rest of the boat? Where's the decked ends, the side benches with the removable thwart that fits between them, the offset centerboard, and a couple of bulkheads and a mast step for a birdwing mast? Just halfway kidding you, flo-mo. Sometimes I think a man of your talents ought to be designing the rest of the boat as well and this morning was one of those times.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    That is a nice looking boat! Definitely squeezing the most from two sheets of plywood and looks like it would be pleasant to row.

    I haven't given up on the butterfly concept yet; it seems to work for the boat I have in progress (A mini-faering in Newfoundland). This build is sleeping right now because it got too cold before I was able to get started with the epoxy.

    I am also experimenting with 4-strake models with the bottom 3 strakes butterfly style and the last strake set onto a chine stringer. This idea comes from the boats of the Nordfjord, Sunnfjord and Sogne regions, which were probably at some point 3 strake boats to which a 4th strake was added later. The inwale remained at the top of the 3rd strake; the 4th strake sometimes got an outwale and sometimes not. This concept uses an extra plywood sheet but gives a wider, deeper boat. I decided that my framing would involve plywood also, and the rest of the extra sheet would be used for that.

    Besides hull shapes I am working on the details kenjamin mentions, the framing, decking/buoyancy tanks vs. foam blocks, seat thwart placement, foot stretchers, floorboards, spaced inwale vs. not spaced, oarlock placement and attachment, and the shape and construction of the solid wood stem/keel assembly. Those things are very time consuming and not anywhere near as much fun as modeling hull shapes. It looks like I'll have to learn a regular CAD program to be able draw those features as well. I can definitely appreciate now why plans for fully outfitted boats aren't often free.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    I like it. This just passed ROMAX as my favorite design you've cooked up.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Flo-Mo, I love your boats. The simplicity in their construction but complexity of the resulting hull, and the lack of waste and minimal use of materials is remarkable, and laudable.

    However, I notice your double-enders are symmetrical. Would it be possible to make a boat that was a bit fuller aft, without going crazy developing it, or increasing the waste too much?

    There is a picture of Ian Oughtred sailing his Ness Yawl in a big chop in the Firth of Forth, reefed down hard and planing like a Laser. (It was in the Launchings section of the parent magazine about 20 years ago.) I don't think your boats with their slender afterbodies could manage that as easily.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Awesome. You are a real artist.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Yes awesome Flo-mo. It is amazing how little cut off you manage. I wouldn't have thought this possible at all.
    Thanks for sharing.
    Max

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    Flo-Mo, I love your boats. The simplicity in their construction but complexity of the resulting hull, and the lack of waste and minimal use of materials is remarkable, and laudable.

    However, I notice your double-enders are symmetrical. Would it be possible to make a boat that was a bit fuller aft, without going crazy developing it, or increasing the waste too much?

    There is a picture of Ian Oughtred sailing his Ness Yawl in a big chop in the Firth of Forth, reefed down hard and planing like a Laser. (It was in the Launchings section of the parent magazine about 20 years ago.) I don't think your boats with their slender afterbodies could manage that as easily.
    The thin afterbody is very important when rowing into steep seas in coastal waters.
    In the Beltic where the waters are shallow and the wave pattern very short and steep compared to the long North Sea swells most traditional doubleenders are actually a little beamier forward than aft. No extreme difference but enough to give the bow a little extra lift while the stern sinks a bit deeper.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    Flo-Mo, I love your boats. The simplicity in their construction but complexity of the resulting hull, and the lack of waste and minimal use of materials is remarkable, and laudable.

    However, I notice your double-enders are symmetrical. Would it be possible to make a boat that was a bit fuller aft, without going crazy developing it, or increasing the waste too much?

    There is a picture of Ian Oughtred sailing his Ness Yawl in a big chop in the Firth of Forth, reefed down hard and planing like a Laser. (It was in the Launchings section of the parent magazine about 20 years ago.) I don't think your boats with their slender afterbodies could manage that as easily.
    This boat is a lot smaller and narrower and with much slacker bilges than the Ness yawl. I doubt that it is worth it to try and tweak it for sailing; it is rightly optimized for rowing. Just guessing, but I would expect this boat to feel tippier, and have less resistance than your average 15' canoe and I bet that a raincoat hoisted on an oar would get it moving nicely...

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Dang Flo-mo, where's the rest of the boat? Where's the decked ends, the side benches with the removable thwart that fits between them, the offset centerboard, and a couple of bulkheads and a mast step for a birdwing mast? Just halfway kidding you, flo-mo. Sometimes I think a man of your talents ought to be designing the rest of the boat as well and this morning was one of those times.
    Thank you for your relevant comment. As I do not intend to build this boat or to sell plans, I won't go into detail about the interior layout. Most of my design exercises are only ideas for the hull and not proper boat designs.

    Anyhow here are some photos of the 1:10 plywood scale model:









    Last edited by flo-mo; 10-23-2018 at 04:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    By request I add the panel offsets for the design above labeled Two Sheet Faering 3:

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/btZRsamk5w4eL1TL8









    The measurements for the width at the sheer line are 61 cm apart measured at the inside of the sheer.



    Last edited by flo-mo; 08-17-2018 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Added missing dimension to panel 2 offsets

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Thank you to Flo Mo for posting measurements! I started in on building the two-sheet faering last weekend. I can only squeeze an hour or two of work in every couple days, so progress has been slow. Here's a google photo link of the build so far. The weather is warm this weekend here in MT, so there is a chance that I may be able to start stitching the boat together tomorrow morning!

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lq4YCtKbKvCbu9mz5
    Last edited by MT Rower; 10-20-2018 at 11:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    What an excellent project. I wonder if one could scarf the sheets of plywood first, then use plunge-cuts to cut the folds/joins? Why? I don't know, it just occurred to me to wonder about it. -- Wade

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Hi MT Rower,

    I am excited about your project and happy that you are willing to share photos of your build. It is impossible for me to build a prototype of all of my designs so I am glad if someone else is keen enough to do it.
    I am looking forward to any progress and will keep following with great interest.

    My best wishes to you
    Stefan

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    It will be awesome to see this boat become real. It looks so slippery that I bet you could paddle it with a teaspoon.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    MT Rower,

    Will be following your build pictures with high interest. Flo-mo's faering design is very sweet!

    Just curious is your SOF Ruth adequate for camp cruising or do you need a little bit more room?

    Thanks,

    Woody

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Dang Flo-mo, where's the rest of the boat? Where's the decked ends, the side benches with the removable thwart that fits between them, the offset centerboard, and a couple of bulkheads and a mast step for a birdwing mast? Just halfway kidding you, flo-mo. Sometimes I think a man of your talents ought to be designing the rest of the boat as well and this morning was one of those times.
    The plywood for the decks comes from the five sheet 21 foot version where you expand everything by 40%. The rest of the design is easy, you just start spiling the extra bits to make them fit. The sail and centerboard slot are even easier. Sheesh, IT"S A ROWBOAT. You don't need them! Why does everyone want to sail rowboats?

    And yes, Stefan, very nice. Again.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    I think Kenjamin asked tongue in cheek a justified question and I tried to give a genuine answer. I don't feel it was meant to be offensive.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Kenjamin said in a humorous way that the design was worth fleshing out. I agree. I thought that my 'complaint' would also be seen as a joke, hence the stupid red face. It is something of a standing joke that as soon as some people look at a good rowboat design they immediately ask if you can put a sail on it. Bolger has commented on it in his books.

    My comment was also an observation that this design could be scaled up to by 40% to a full sized 6.5m (21' 8") faering. Doing that would not fit well on standard sized sheets of plywood. Half of the panels fit on a 122 x 366cm (12') sheet of plywood with a curved left over ranging from 50 to 75 cm wide. Plenty of material for decks and things. I worded it that way to see if anyone would do the math and work with the idea. I had no intention of offending anyone. Scarfing with a filler piece instead of a butt block would be required to make a full 12' panel would take a sort of double scarf that would be unusual, but not difficult. A Payson fiberglass butt is the easier alternative.

    =====\=\====
    Last edited by MN Dave; 10-27-2018 at 02:12 PM.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    I had to put this project on hold for a bit there, but I have made some progress of late. I hope to finish stitching the stern together and start tacking the strakes together (with thickened epoxy) tonight!


    DSC05613.jpgDSC05614.jpg

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Jones View Post
    MT Rower,


    Just curious is your SOF Ruth adequate for camp cruising or do you need a little bit more room?

    Thanks,

    Woody
    I had to bump Ruth down the project list. Ruth will be a sweet boat, but I have a greater need for a boat that can handle the occasional rock encounter, and possibly handle a dog (though this two-sheet boat may be too tender for a dog).

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Wow, those lines are sweet!

    I started my own faering inspired by this concept, just a little bit different: four strakes instead of three, all strakes joined at the hood ends (origami or butterfly construction) and a bit firmer bilge for more initial stability.

    Alas I made not one, but at least three serious mistakes.

    1) I started this boat (and another one as well) when I already had an unfinished boat to work on. The end result was that none of the three are moving as quickly.

    2) I used cheap birch plywood, 4mm thick with 5 veneers, the face veneers hair thin. The glue isn't waterproof and it didn't bend the way I was anticipating.

    3) I used exterior latex house paint over exterior latex primer to paint the panels in the basement in the winter before assembly. It is still sticky even after half a year of drying.

    Long story short, I postponed the finishing of this boat.

    However, this thread gives me impetus to eventually finish it. It would be so interesting to meet up one day to do a real life comparison of the two designs. Too bad it is the wrong side of the pond for Stefan.

    For those interested, there is a new build thread happening here:
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t-faering-quot

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    DSC05615.jpgDSC05617.jpg
    Shockingly enough, it took longer to get the exterior seams tacked together than I expected... I got the exterior seams done yesterday evening. I had a hard time getting the strakes to line up properly, so I ended up stitching in blocks (wrapped in packing tape to avoid epoxying them in place). Owing to a few errant cuts, I had some gaps along the seams in a few spot that were wide enough to require backing with tape.

    I flipped her over this evening and tacked together the bow and tacked the bulkhead in place. I still haven't settled on a final bulkhead shape.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Awesome progress so far!

    The origami method I'm using results in small gaps too, but they are inherent in the technique, don't have anything to do with cutting errors although they can add to the gaps.

    I've have seen the use of dowels to align the planks at the stitches in other build threads and have done that myself, so I wouldn't worry about needing the blocks either. Appears to be that the self-aligning qualities of the stitch and glue technique are often overstated, especially if there are more than just one or two planks per side.

    I think it would make sense to cut the bulkhead down by about half in the middle and create a flat edge there to form part of the seat support. You could double the bulkhead, one on each side of the buttblocks, and turn the whole thing into a hollow box frame. This would create a rigid structure with very little weight.

    That's the thing with a new design, you get to invent all the details as you go along.

    In my similar faering I ended up not using plywood bulkheads or buttblocks but solid wood for an integrated midships buttblock/frame that is essentially and I-beam. It had to be in place before fixing the seams with epoxy.

    There are many ways to build a frame, and you could always modify it if your first try doesn't work out. With my experimental prototypes I plan to get them tested out on the water with just an epoxy coat on. It is much easier to remove/reinforce something before painting than after.

    In my boats of similar beam, which will also be pretty tippy, I plan to put the seat fairly low down. The depth of my mini-faering style boats is ~14-15", and I plan to put the seats about 6" up from the bottom of the V, leaving ~8" from the top of the seat to the rail. From this I anticipate two benefits: 1) lower centre of gravity and 2) the oarlocks don't need to go on risers, which would seriously get in the way of sliding the boat onto car roofracks. The drawback is that the legs end up more outstretched and it is more difficult to get up and out of the boat for less limber people.

    You can pad the seat up to make it higher more easily than lower it when glued/fastened in.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by BOI View Post
    Awesome progress so far!

    I plan to put the seats about 6" up from the bottom of the V, leaving ~8" from the top of the seat to the rail.
    Thank you for your advice, BOI! I am going to start with 6 inches and see how she feels! I am still considering a sliding seat, so I may cut it down a bit more. (Her ends are probably too fine for a sliding seat, though, and her water line length is definitely too short, but...)


    I was able to put in a lot of time this weekend of this project! The seams are taped inside and out. Pictures are posted here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lq4YCtKbKvCbu9mz5

    I am currently thinking African Mahogany for the outwale.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    DSC05625.jpg

    I test fit the 3/4"x3/4" African Mahogany outwale last night. I am debating between outwales that are laminated the full length of the boat (1.5 inches wide for the full length) and tapered outwales. Since I used butt blocks that are the full width of the strakes, I am not going to add an inwale.

    I hope to finish sanding the exterior tape down (and possibly adding a bit more epoxy in places). I am considering a bright finish on the entire boat, but may paint for the ease of maintenance.
    Last edited by MT Rower; 11-16-2018 at 07:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    DSC05629.jpg

    After digging around this forum and other forums, I have settled on laminated full-length outwales. I got everything scarfed together yesterday and began the installation this morning! I have a bit more sanding to do on the interior tape. I hope to get the interior sealed prior to heading out of town for Thanksgiving.
    Last edited by MT Rower; 11-18-2018 at 01:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    I have had to re-order my tasks in anticipation of leaving town. I am now going to try to get the bottom finished, then let the varnish cure while I am out of town. I am sealing the wood with Total Boat Varnish primer. I couldn't resist intentionally applying it over the fiberglass tape in a few spots to get a better idea of what it will look like with varnish.

    Here she is before and after one coat of the varnish primer:

    DSC05634.jpgDSC05636.jpg

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Looks terrific -- you are making great progress!

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by flo-mo View Post
    Looks terrific -- you are making great progress!
    Thanks! I am getting very excited for my first trip with her! We'll be heading to Lake Powell in mid-December to explore the side-canyons that have been exposed as the reservoir level has dropped.

    I just got done varnishing the exterior:

    DSC05648.jpgDSC05646.jpg

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Almost done! Here she is after two seal coats. I got a third coat on late last night, so I will varnish her tomorrow. I hope to get her on the water for a trial row by the end of next week!

    More photos and comments at: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lq4YCtKbKvCbu9mz5

    DSC05665.jpg

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Very exciting to see her almost finished!

    The highlighted grain pattern looks really nice.
    I like the simplicity of your build. If one frame is all you need for sufficient rigidity I am all for it.

    What is the temperature of the waters in Montana at this time of the year? I guess the trial row will be a chilly event.

    Cheers
    Stefan

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Quote Originally Posted by flo-mo View Post
    Very exciting to see her almost finished!

    The highlighted grain pattern looks really nice.
    I like the simplicity of your build. If one frame is all you need for sufficient rigidity I am all for it.

    What is the temperature of the waters in Montana at this time of the year? I guess the trial row will be a chilly event.

    Cheers
    Stefan
    Thanks Stefan! She still has some flex in her gunwales, but I think she'll row OK for now. I may add either a scuppered inwale or permanent flotation tanks (depending on how the trip south goes in a few weeks) to stiffen her up.

    The water temps around here are getting close to freezing, so I may need to launch on a river if the nearby lake is iced up too much.
    -Blake

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    Default Re: Inspired by BOI - my own take on designing a two sheet mini-faering

    Some more tinkering on optimizing the panel layout for the two sheet mini-faering and a scheme for the internal structure:



    I bought two sheets of cheap 6 mm pine plywood (250 x 125 cm) with the intention to eventually build my own mini faering should I ever finish the five to ten other projects I have in mind.
    Using these slightly larger sheets the main dimensions would be:

    LOA: 514 cm
    Beam: 128 cm
    Midship depth: 36 cm

    The video is of poor quality, but I hope it helps to comprehend the concept and to get a better idea of the hull shape.

    Last edited by flo-mo; 12-06-2018 at 05:30 PM.

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