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Thread: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    But you'd agree that a work of fiction could support the actual experience of a real human being, yes? And that being the case, one should take care when proffering the material to others as a first-person account or observation. Yes?

    Kevin
    There are lessons to be learned even from fiction Kevin..... though to my eye is true, my experience collaborates it.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    There are lessons to be learned even from fiction Kevin..... though to my eye is true, my experience collaborates it.
    Agreed, Peter! And fair enough!

    Kevin
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Oh puhleeze. What a load of polemic crap.

    I paused in the first paragraph:

    The real problem is rural America doesnít understand the causes of their own situations and fears and they have shown no interest in finding out. They donít want to know why they feel the way they do or why they are struggling because they donít want to admit it is in large part because of choices theyíve made and horrible things theyíve allowed themselves to believe.
    And this sealed the deal:

    The problem isnít that I donít understand these people. The problem is they donít understand themselves, the reasons for their anger/frustrations, and donít seem to care to know why.
    The rest of the article is screed without evidence, other than when he talks to people in rural America they find him disagreeable and don't care for lectures. Ya think?

    Other than Keith, I don't think there's anyone else on this thread who lives in "ignurant white racist flyover stoopid land". My experience does not match the author's. Let's see how the Ignurant states (midwestern, rural, and "bible belt" states) rank nationally.

    According to the Washington Post, the "smartest states". Well golly gee, looka them Ignurant midwestern states (darker am smarter)!





    States with highest high school graduation rates? Nine of the top ten are Ignurant states: Iowa, New Jersey, Alabama, Texas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri http://www.usnews.com/high-schools/b...aduation-rates

    States with highest rates of college-bound high school seniors? 18 of the top half are Ignurant states. http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser...=graph&state=0

    States where 9th graders have the best chance of going to college? A whole lotta white Great Plains Ignurant states!



    Percentage of adults older than 25 with a college degree. Do you see a giant sinkhole in the center of the country? No, neither do I.


  4. #39
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Cris, I read it as an explanation of the priority some people, specifically "fundamentalists" give to belief versus any other evidence. As my experience collaborates. It's about people, not geography.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    So how about the idea that religious people are stupid, biased and closed-minded?

    Pew Research says the MOST religious people see the LEAST conflict between their religious beliefs and scientific views.

    And this isn't just a Unitarian - Episcopal thing. White evangelicals are more likely to say that science and religion are generally compatible than other groups, statistically tied with Hispanic Catholics. People with no religious faith are much more likely to see science and religion at odds with each other. http://www.pewinternet.org/2015/10/2...-and-religion/




    There are not significant differences in education levels comparing religious and non-religious people. Mainstream protestants and non-believers are essentially identical in educational attainment, and evangelical protestants are slightly less educated (e.g., 57% of evangelicals have more than a high school education compared to 63% of mainline protestants and 62% of non-believers). http://www.pewforum.org/religious-la...-distribution/

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Peter, the title of the article was supplied not by the author, who originally posted this on a blog under a different title, but the fine editors at Raw Story looking for clickbait.

    His first paragraph is:

    As the aftermath of the election of Donald Trump is being sorted out, a common theme keeps cropping up from all sides: “Democrats failed to understand white, working-class, fly-over America.”
    Trump supporters are saying this. Progressive pundits are saying this. Talking heads across all forms of the media are saying this. Even some Democratic leaders are saying this. It doesn’t matter how many people say it, it is complete bull***t. It is an intellectual/linguistic sleight of hand meant to throw attention away from the real problem. The real problem isn’t east coast elites who don’t understand or care about rural America. The real problem is rural America doesn’t understand the causes of their own situations and fears and they have shown no interest in finding out. They don’t want to know why they feel the way they do or why they are struggling because they don’t want to admit it is in large part because of choices they’ve made and horrible things they’ve allowed themselves to believe.

    His primary lens is "white, working-class, fly-over America" or "rural America".

    The first time he refers to Fundamentalism is a couple of paragraphs in:

    In deep-red white America, the white Christian God is king, figuratively and literally. Religious fundamentalism is what has shaped most of their belief systems. Systems built on a fundamentalist framework are not conducive to introspection, questioning, learning, change.


    First, Fundamentalism is by no means a majority religion in America, it is a tiny colorful splinter. Again, referring to the Pew data.
    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ About 25% of Americans identify themselves as Evangelical Christians, but that is a wide umbrella under which Fundamentalists live. For example, 7.8% of Americans are Southern Baptist Convention or Independent Baptists, who are by no means Fundamentalists. There are many religious groups who represent less than one half of one percent of Americans, but one large group that you might broadly paint as Fundamentalists are the Pentacostals, who represent about 3.6% of Americans.

    Second, let's dig into beliefs of Pentacostals as surveyed by Pew.
    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-family/pentecostal-family-evangelical-trad/

    They are 59% white, 21% are immigrants, half make less than $30,000 a year, and half have a high school education or less. 69% say that religion is their guide to right and wrong (with 23% saying "common sense"). So other than the white bias of our author, these are the people he's talking about. What do they believe?

    47% are Republicans, 33% Democrats, and 20% politically unaffiliated.
    51% are Conservative, 25% Moderate, 19% Liberal
    50% say we should have smaller government with fewer services, 43% say we should have bigger government with more services
    49% say that government aid to the poor does more harm than good, 46% more good than harm
    28% believe abortion should be legal in all/most cases, 69% say it should be illegal
    28% say homosexuality should be accepted, 63% say it should be discouraged
    20% favor/strongly favor same-sex marriage, 74% oppose/strongly oppose it
    48% say stricter environmental regulation is worth the cost, 45% say it isn't
    9% say humans evolved due to natural processes, 22% say humans evolved due to God's design, 2% "evolved but don;t know how" and 61% say humans always existed as they do today.

    So, these Fundamentalists are more conservative than not, but they are hardly the closed-minded, mean, racist, ignorant simpletons that the article depicts.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    the article stated the educated wouldn't get it - and they were right, you don't!


    David


    "before you attribute the disposition of rural Americans solely to religious beliefs you should be aware that "religiosity" has been declining everwhere including rural America. How do you measure "religiosity?" God only knows. But church attendance has been going down. In rural states actual, self reported church attendance is one stat, it might be 30 to 50%, but actual church attendance is likely half those numbers."


    I live with these people, you are wrong. They get their social & political views straight from the pulpit. Except for highways (& sometimes there too) you can't drive more than 5 miles without seeing 3 churches.. & come sunday (& wednesday) they are packed. that article is spot on. you can either read it carefully & try to understand, or prove it correct & poo, poo it - but if you don't understand the problem (& recent voting results strongly suggest you don't), you'll never fix it. I warned the lot of you this was coming & why. You didn't believe me, you don't believe the article, & yet - it came. What's Keith's .sig again?


    Thanks for posting that Peter.



    bobby

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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    add Saturday to the list.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Oh puhleeze. What a load of polemic crap.

    I paused in the first paragraph:



    And this sealed the deal:



    The rest of the article is screed without evidence, other than when he talks to people in rural America they find him disagreeable and don't care for lectures. Ya think?

    Other than Keith, I don't think there's anyone else on this thread who lives in "ignurant white racist flyover stoopid land". My experience does not match the author's. Let's see how the Ignurant states (midwestern, rural, and "bible belt" states) rank nationally.

    According to the Washington Post, the "smartest states". Well golly gee, looka them Ignurant midwestern states (darker am smarter)!





    States with highest high school graduation rates? Nine of the top ten are Ignurant states: Iowa, New Jersey, Alabama, Texas, Nebraska, Wisconsin, New Hampshire, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri http://www.usnews.com/high-schools/b...aduation-rates

    States with highest rates of college-bound high school seniors? 18 of the top half are Ignurant states. http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser...=graph&state=0

    States where 9th graders have the best chance of going to college? A whole lotta white Great Plains Ignurant states!



    Percentage of adults older than 25 with a college degree. Do you see a giant sinkhole in the center of the country? No, neither do I.

    Cris, you are way off.
    1.- Intelligence is not that relevant. The son of a colleague of mine was intelligent enough to gain entrance to Oxford, but could not figure out why the chain would not stay on his bike. There are different sorts of intelligence and different sorts of dumb.
    2- The article itself pointed out the the bright ones did the work at college to pass the exams, and then wiped their minds of the stuff that contradicted their world view.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Quote Originally Posted by C. Ross View Post
    Peter, the title of the article was supplied not by the author, who originally posted this on a blog under a different title, but the fine editors at Raw Story looking for clickbait.

    His first paragraph is:


    His primary lens is "white, working-class, fly-over America" or "rural America".

    The first time he refers to Fundamentalism is a couple of paragraphs in:



    First, Fundamentalism is by no means a majority religion in America, it is a tiny colorful splinter. Again, referring to the Pew data.
    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ About 25% of Americans identify themselves as Evangelical Christians, but that is a wide umbrella under which Fundamentalists live. For example, 7.8% of Americans are Southern Baptist Convention or Independent Baptists, who are by no means Fundamentalists. There are many religious groups who represent less than one half of one percent of Americans, but one large group that you might broadly paint as Fundamentalists are the Pentacostals, who represent about 3.6% of Americans.

    Second, let's dig into beliefs of Pentacostals as surveyed by Pew.
    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/religious-family/pentecostal-family-evangelical-trad/

    They are 59% white, 21% are immigrants, half make less than $30,000 a year, and half have a high school education or less. 69% say that religion is their guide to right and wrong (with 23% saying "common sense"). So other than the white bias of our author, these are the people he's talking about. What do they believe?

    47% are Republicans, 33% Democrats, and 20% politically unaffiliated.
    51% are Conservative, 25% Moderate, 19% Liberal
    50% say we should have smaller government with fewer services, 43% say we should have bigger government with more services
    49% say that government aid to the poor does more harm than good, 46% more good than harm
    28% believe abortion should be legal in all/most cases, 69% say it should be illegal
    28% say homosexuality should be accepted, 63% say it should be discouraged
    20% favor/strongly favor same-sex marriage, 74% oppose/strongly oppose it
    48% say stricter environmental regulation is worth the cost, 45% say it isn't
    9% say humans evolved due to natural processes, 22% say humans evolved due to God's design, 2% "evolved but don;t know how" and 61% say humans always existed as they do today.

    So, these Fundamentalists are more conservative than not, but they are hardly the closed-minded, mean, racist, ignorant simpletons that the article depicts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    the article stated the educated wouldn't get it - and they were right, you don't!


    David


    "before you attribute the disposition of rural Americans solely to religious beliefs you should be aware that "religiosity" has been declining everwhere including rural America. How do you measure "religiosity?" God only knows. But church attendance has been going down. In rural states actual, self reported church attendance is one stat, it might be 30 to 50%, but actual church attendance is likely half those numbers."


    I live with these people, you are wrong. They get their social & political views straight from the pulpit. Except for highways (& sometimes there too) you can't drive more than 5 miles without seeing 3 churches.. & come sunday (& wednesday) they are packed. that article is spot on. you can either read it carefully & try to understand, or prove it correct & poo, poo it - but if you don't understand the problem (& recent voting results strongly suggest you don't), you'll never fix it. I warned the lot of you this was coming & why. You didn't believe me, you don't believe the article, & yet - it came. What's Keith's .sig again?


    Thanks for posting that Peter.



    bobby
    I gotta go with bobby on this one, Cris. These people are 'educated fools'.

    They elected a crime family to lead the Nation, and they don't give a rip that the Nation is being led to the slaughter. We are watching a handful of evil men unravel our democracy, and they were not put into position by wise and educated people.

    Just look at some of the boiling cauldron of hate-fueled lies that spew forth right here on this board, and tell me that these people are anything but deplorable, willfully ignorant rubes.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    There is a lot of hate and blind prejudice in the article, and a lot of us vs them. Them is poorly defined, which is always helpful when you write and article saying "they" are bad. It reminds me of the things I don't like about Trump.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Button pushed.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    ^ ditto.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Interesting thread, even if revived by a spambot. I went back and read the article again, and while it's harsh and not very balanced, it contains altogether too much truth. This has unfortunately become clearer in the 6-1/2 years since it was originally posted.

    A couple of minor points:

    RE Emily's post #30: 'Fundamentalism' has two basic meanings. The smaller one refers to a specific conservative Christian movement in the US started in the late 19th and early 20th century as a reaction against secularization, science, and liberal religion. The name comes from a series of essays entitled 'The Fundamentals: A Testimony To The Truth' published between 1910 and 1915 (link). That was what I was referring to when I said it was a relatively recent thing. The term is also used in a much larger sense to refer to any kind of rigid dogmatic intolerant religion, i.e. 'Iranian fundamentalists'. There's all too much of that, alas.

    And regarding Chris's point in #40 about 'People with no religious faith are much more likely to see science and religion at odds with each other': Perhaps one reason for that is that many people with no religion are more likely to think of religion as fundamentalism (in the larger sense). We see that here all the time. I don't know how many times I've repeated my 'they're not all like that' schtick, but I'd bet its approaching 100.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Which begs the question about where are the rural educated elites?
    Gerard>
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerarddm View Post
    Which begs the question about where are the rural educated elites?
    Mostly in cities, after they got educated and became part of the 'elite'.

    But the idea of an 'educated elite' is kind of dubious, at best.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 03-30-2023 at 09:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    spambot took a pretty good wbf handle tho

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    Default Re: Rural conservative America and the educated elites. an article.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    It would be worthwhile noting, as neither the OP's article nor the University of New Hampshire's pieces do, that conservative Christianity isn't the only kind.

    That in fact, Christianity isn't a homogenous blob of reactionary slop when it comes to any number of issues. Pretty much every "progressive" social issue of the past 250 years or so, including Ecological issues, will find Christians both at the movement's origins, and key supporters throughout the movement's arc.

    Forty years ago, Herself worked as a summer student illustrating an "EarthCare Toolkit" for a collection of Canadian mainline churches, in response to a groundswell then among members to understand environmental care within a Christian theology of being called to be Stewards of Creation, not dominators of it. That thinking had already been around within some sectors of the Church for decades, but was widespread enough 40 years ago to be prompting development of a (in Church terms) "mass market" guide.

    Please don't make the mistake of imagining that the "Christianity" defined by, for instance, the views of Mike Pence, is the only extant example or the one which must be considered the most "faithful" to Christ's teachings. I consider it a heresy.
    Thanks for that, Tom.

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