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Thread: Twilight - a design for older sailors

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    Default Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Keyhavenpotterer started an excellent thread about boats for older sailors

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...or-old-codgers

    I have decided to develop my own boat for the older sailor and rather than filling up that thread though I would separate my design into a new thread, hope that is the correct protocol.

    This is a very fluid specification

    1. Single handed - if the older sailor wants to go double handed they can go in a more conventional dinghy with a more able crew
    2. Hull weight, 45kg - more manageable on shore
    3. Type - pram dinghy - stability and help get weight target
    4. Length - 10 to 11ft - to help get weight target
    5. Water ballast
    6. Rig, single Bermuda sail, free standing with roll around the mast reefing, can use of the shelf: SD, Topper, Pico
    7. Mast fitting, push up mast gate system as Topper rather than lifting Laser type - ease of rigging
    8. Ergonomic seating, Sit on side deck and foredeck as required, angled edge as per Streaker dinghy as I know this is very comfortable. Deep cockpit (about 17 inches deep) so sailor sits with knees bent approximately 90 degrees on all points of sail and all wind conditions.
    9. Center board - ease of use, no lifting
    10. Construction, S&T multi chine ply with flat bottom sheet
    11. Buoyancy, so floats on side when capsized (see Hadron dinghy) - easy to reach centre board
    12. Sealed mast - non inverting
    13. Righting lines as used on Feva dinghy etc - makes righting very easy
    14. Stepped stern - easy to get back on board
    15. Stern sheeting with bridle, one side of the bridle can be released effectively making very long mainsheet so boom can swing well forward and allow stern reentry


    I am working, with difficulty, on a 3D CAD model. My 7 CAD package is not up to the professional CAD I have used in the past.

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    Here is a sketch


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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Twilight ? I thought you meant this Twilight .

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Twilight ? I thought you meant this Twilight .
    No sorry, that twilight is much prettier than mine will ever be

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Very nice, speck seems spot on to me.

    Thinking about climbing back in over the stern, Swallow Boats added footsteps into their rudder blades. John Welsford SNS has a shallow water rudder blade option which gives a horizontal step to perhaps clmb up off. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...95#post4634295

    One imagines that such a rudder would feel heavier than a stadard one. If it actually was fine, such a simple shallow rudder would be quite a banefit. Just sail up the beach, no worryIng and struggling with uphauls as you approach the beach.

    Brian

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    I like the step on the rudder stock, inspired. I have a step as part of the blade looking like a foil and I though it would drag on a small boat as you changed trim.

    I have added a few handles which cone for free, not yet rendered properly

    Tink

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    Default

    Handles


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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    No sorry, that twilight is much prettier than mine will ever be
    Now, now. None of that. Your boat will be pretty in its own way, in a DIFFERENT way. Your boat may even be more beautiful to some people.

    However, Peter really should stop posting such tempting pictures.

    I'm looking forward to seeing where this heads, and I will add some opinions if you call for them.
    Good luck! It's looking good, so far.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Twilight ? I thought you meant this Twilight .

    "I was just in time to see a huge sea..."

    talk about a cliff hanger!!! please post the next page!

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post

    ...............and I will add some opinions if you call for them.

    Peace,
    Robert
    I would love as many opinions as people can muster. Working different buoyancy tank options at the moment.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I would love as many opinions as people can muster. Working different buoyancy tank options at the moment.
    Going small is a mistake, unless it's a surfboard, the pram is too small a boat for elderly people, Hereshoff 12 1/2 is far more friendly platform, or a large skiff or dory 18-22 ft something like roger longs yawl dory, an older person needs something the is not twitchy, tippy, so they can hang onto the boat while moving around and the boat will support them, any 11 footer waterballast or no will capsize, also a boat has to have very comfortable ergonomic seating, no crouching or hiking out.


    Looks like the Yawl "Twilight" posted by Sibley is about perfect...

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    just FYI the best way to get an elderly person on a small boat is from a firm beach or dry boat ramp, pull the boat up to the beach, help the elderly person over to the boat, have them sit on the rail, or fore deck, then swing one leg at a time into the boat and ease down onto a seat, if they are too infirm to do this they should not be out boating.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Going small is a mistake, unless it's a surfboard, the pram is too small a boat for elderly people, Hereshoff 12 1/2 is far more friendly platform, or a large skiff or dory 18-22 ft something like roger longs yawl dory, an older person needs something the is not twitchy, tippy, so they can hang onto the boat while moving around and the boat will support them, any 11 footer waterballast or no will capsize, also a boat has to have very comfortable ergonomic seating, no crouching or hiking out.


    Looks like the Yawl "Twilight" posted by Sibley is about perfect...
    Don't disagree with what you are saying, there has been much discussion on types of boats for older people on a sister thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...or-old-codgers

    There is obviously an ability scale for older sailors and the Hereshoff 12 1/2 has been sited as a suitable craft along with trimarans and a while host more.

    I realise I should have been a bit clearer in my first post. This craft is aimed at a aimed at a sailor who is struggling with existing designs but it's still able to:
    ⚫️ To independently launch and recover a light boat(60kg all up plus trolley) using a hard slip.
    ⚫️ Can right a light dinghy designed with good floatation and righting lines

    The design soul try to improve
    ⚫️ Ergonomics, sit comfortably on all points of sail and wind up to f5, no kneeling, no hiking.
    ⚫️ Able to re-enter the boat after capsize without overly athletic effort
    ⚫️ Simple reefing system to reduce the risk of capsize

    I have to admit it is perhaps a boat with limited appeal but they are essential the my personal requirements for my last build.

    For cleanliness please post general comments about sailing for the older sailor on the old codgers thread.

    Thanks

    Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    I don't know what type,of rudder you plan, but an endplate on a shallow rudder, or chocks, or even a slot in the blade of a higher aspect type can help reentry over the stern. Especially if paired with some handles.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Don't disagree with what you are saying, there has been much discussion on types of boats for older people on a sister thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...or-old-codgers

    There is obviously an ability scale for older sailors and the Hereshoff 12 1/2 has been sited as a suitable craft along with trimarans and a while host more.

    I realise I should have been a bit clearer in my first post. This craft is aimed at a aimed at a sailor who is struggling with existing designs but it's still able to:
    ⚫️ To independently launch and recover a light boat(60kg all up plus trolley) using a hard slip.
    ⚫️ Can right a light dinghy designed with good floatation and righting lines

    The design soul try to improve
    ⚫️ Ergonomics, sit comfortably on all points of sail and wind up to f5, no kneeling, no hiking.
    ⚫️ Able to re-enter the boat after capsize without overly athletic effort
    ⚫️ Simple reefing system to reduce the risk of capsize

    I have to admit it is perhaps a boat with limited appeal but they are essential the my personal requirements for my last build.

    For cleanliness please post general comments about sailing for the older sailor on the old codgers thread.

    Thanks

    Tink
    if a codger can sail this design what would prevent them from sailing a sunfish? or wooden board boat? both are bathing suit boats for warm weather only, the Sunfish with it's incredibly low freeboard so it is easy to reenter ... no standard reefing sail but that could be done. ergonomics of the foot well are pretty ok. stability has got to be similar to a 11' pram.

    I once looked into designing a lead bulb/drop keel that could be mounted on a sunfish for sailors with disabilitys who had difficulty hiking.

    a design critique, the narrow bench seats at the edge of the hull will mean in light -moderate breeze the boat will be heeling to windward and the sailor doubled over trying to get weight toward the center, very uncomfortable.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I don't know what type,of rudder you plan, but an endplate on a shallow rudder, or chocks, or even a slot in the blade of a higher aspect type can help reentry over the stern. Especially if paired with some handles.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Thanks, one of the ideas I am considering alongside the rudder stock step (keyhavenpotterer post 5), drop down step either ridged or flexible with stirrup, keyhavenpotterer again, hole in the rudder. Plus the handles my post 7.

    Thanks again for the input

    Tink

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    Tink, as a guy with a fascination and fondness for wooden boats I hope I would still have the freedom to say the following. I see great potential for your design but not as a wooden boat but as a molded one piece of styrofoam. Imagine all the surfaces being soft to fall on. Hard points can be designed to be in out of the way places for the control line hardware. (like the inside corners of the loading deck.) Styrofoam would also yield an extremely light boat and ballast could be molded-in recycled plastic.

    I also think that Daniel may be underestimating the stability of the short fat hull form. From my experience with my SCAMP, there is a lot of stability available for a 10' or 12' hull. Maybe your hull design could end up at a resort type lagoon where grandparents and grandkids could even compete with each other.

    I should also mention that my sister loves her Snark. Her Snark lost its vinyl covering a long time ago so it's just the foam now although it's sealed with a good paint. So the whole boat is sort of soft so it's kind of hard to hurt yourself on it. Anyway, she loves that thing. She told me she likes the Lateen rig as it depowers so quickly so it provides good control. That's a good thing because she takes it out in the beach surf here at St. Augustine Beach.

    Good luck with your boat design, tink!




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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    if a codger can sail this design what would prevent them from sailing a sunfish? or wooden board boat? both are bathing suit boats for warm weather only, the Sunfish with it's incredibly low freeboard so it is easy to reenter ... no standard reefing sail but that could be done. ergonomics of the foot well are pretty ok. stability has got to be similar to a 11' pram.

    I once looked into designing a lead bulb/drop keel that could be mounted on a sunfish for sailors with disabilitys who had difficulty hiking.

    a design critique, the narrow bench seats at the edge of the hull will mean in light -moderate breeze the boat will be heeling to windward and the sailor doubled over trying to get weight toward the center, very uncomfortable.
    Thanks Daniel

    As I am from the UK I have never seen let alone sailed a Sunfish, I am well aware of them and the high regard many people have for them. I have done some brief internet research and who put them in the category of the traditional designs we have in the UK. From the video I have watched they look athletic to right, the centre board is very high when capsized and it seams to invert quickly. The other point I noticed is that the cockpit is quite shallow and the sailors have very bent knees. As I say I have no personal experience and stand to be corrected.

    If fully get your point about the bench seats and my number one requirement is stopping being bent over or kneeling in the cockpit. I know I have a long way to go and will be building ergonomic test rigs along the way.

    I live in northern England and want a drysuit boat, min temperature 3C 37F.

    Thanks for the very valuable input, please keep it coming

    Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    One way to make the boat light would be to build skin on frame. That would allow a longer, roomier boat for a given weight.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Tink, as a guy with a fascination and fondness for wooden boats I hope I would still have the freedom to say the following. I see great potential for your design but not as a wooden boat but as a molded one piece of styrofoam. Imagine all the surfaces being soft to fall on. Hard points can be designed to be in out of the way places for the control line hardware. (like the inside corners of the loading deck.) Styrofoam would also yield an extremely light boat and ballast could be molded-in recycled plastic.

    I also think that Daniel may be underestimating the stability of the short fat hull form. From my experience with my SCAMP, there is a lot of stability available for a 10' or 12' hull. Maybe your hull design could end up at a resort type lagoon where grandparents and grandkids could even compete with each other.

    I should also mention that my sister loves her Snark. Her Snark lost its vinyl covering a long time ago so it's just the foam now although it's sealed with a good paint. So the whole boat is sort of soft so it's kind of hard to hurt yourself on it. Anyway, she loves that thing. She told me she likes the Lateen rig as it depowers so quickly so it provides good control. That's a good thing because she takes it out in the beach surf here at St. Augustine Beach.

    Good luck with your boat design, tink!

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Big thanks kenjamin,
    I fully get what you say about the styrofoam, when I first started I had a very similar thought and figured a a rotomoulded boat would be better than a wooden one. I then went for a sail in my streaker and became more convinced that a WoodenBoat could be made comfortable. The streaker has times when she is less comfortable and so not a solution however.

    My daughter has an Opi an I spent time in support boat watching these little prams, these little boats are truly amazing. All design is a compromise but a pram does offer a lot of stability of a small length and therefore weight.

    Thanks again for the input

    Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    True,
    one day I will built a SOF boat but I don't think it is for this project, if I can't get close to the weight target I may reconsider.

    Tink

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    I have done some very crude sums and have decided a direction.



    The purple hatched areas are double bottom buoyancy tanks. The orange hatched area is the water ballast. The white area is single bottom, this allows full depth from the side benches and comfortable seating without increasing freeboard.

    The idea that is the double bottom will provide buoyancy to float the swamped boat with sailor on board and some reserve. At this point the only part of the boat flooded is the foot well. The volume of this will be minimal. There is a balancing act to keep the buoyancy down to keep the board low when capsized.

    Tink


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    Bit more thinking, comments welcome


    Purple area aft deck to get in
    Blue area foot well
    Green area side bench, foredeck
    Red area, thwart that can move fore and aft

    The sliding seat of my IC was on a track with a single purchase rope to pull it forward. I think it would be very easy to design a non jamming slider from lumber and move it easily. The IC seat is much heavier and higher loaded than a simple thwart is ever going to be


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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Mmmm. This hull shape bears a striking resemblance to a Mirror Dinghy, a very able and well proven design. An old one might provide a basis for experimentation and development of the new rig and modification of the buoyancy arrangements.

    Good luck with this project.

    Graeme

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral1645 View Post
    Mmmm. This hull shape bears a striking resemblance to a Mirror Dinghy, a very able and well proven design. An old one might provide a basis for experimentation and development of the new rig and modification of the buoyancy arrangements.

    Good luck with this project.

    Graeme
    I am going to develop my own hull shape, probably one more chine. However I do keep thinking why bother and why not use a Mirror hull which can be picked up much cheaper than I could build a hull.

    Thanks Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Actually I was thinking of the Spencer Firebug, which has a similar deck layout, single chine and similar beam in the ends. Spencer was a very, very clever designer; the creator of the Cherub (one of the most advanced dinghies of its day) and the famous Transpac winner Ragtime, but personally his favourite work seems to have been his simple boats for amateur builders.

    Some "old codgers" have moved into the class. For more, see here

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I am going to develop my own hull shape, probably one more chine. However I do keep thinking why bother and why not use a Mirror hull which can be picked up much cheaper than I could build a hull.

    Thanks Tink
    Drawbacks of a Mirror:

    You don't get to design anything
    You don't get to use your 7 quid CAD
    You don't get to call it Twilight (very appropriate, btw).

    If the bouyancy placement makes reaching the centerboard too difficult, there is always the option of using twin lee-boards or a pair of bilge boards. One to step on and one to pull on.
    Nothing in the cockpit to hamper movement with stiff old limbs or bashing arthritic knees against.

    A small sit-inside trimaran might fulfill the majority of your requirements and practically eliminate the capsize issues altogether.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Actually I was thinking of the Spencer Firebug,
    I notice that the Firebug has practically the same dimensions as a PDR (8' x 4').

    How does the performance compare, given the much smaller sail area?

    Is there a major difference in rocker and aft run?

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    /\

    As I understand it, the PDR is rated considerably slower than an Opti (US yardstick of 140 compared to 123.6) whereas the Firebug is rated faster than the Opti (.59 v .65 under NZ yardstick). As you can see, the systems run in different ways and I'm not sure how reliable the figures are. I have no experience with either boat.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Actually I was thinking of the Spencer Firebug, which has a similar deck layout, single chine and similar beam in the ends. Spencer was a very, very clever designer; the creator of the Cherub (one of the most advanced dinghies of its day) and the famous Transpac winner Ragtime, but personally his favourite work seems to have been his simple boats for amateur builders.

    Some "old codgers" have moved into the class. For more, see here
    Thanks Chris249
    I was not aware of that design, I have had a brief look and like it. It has the nice chamfer to the seat which I like from the Streaker. It also has a chamfered chine which I also like, feel it might have less drag from vortex flow than the sharp corner of the PD or Opi.

    I will have a good look at this design and looking a Spencer's designs, I have very font memories of Cherub sailing as a teenager

    thanks again

    Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Drawbacks of a Mirror:

    You don't get to design anything
    You don't get to use your 7 quid CAD
    You don't get to call it Twilight (very appropriate, btw).

    If the bouyancy placement makes reaching the centerboard too difficult, there is always the option of using twin lee-boards or a pair of bilge boards. One to step on and one to pull on.
    Nothing in the cockpit to hamper movement with stiff old limbs or bashing arthritic knees against.

    A small sit-inside trimaran might fulfill the majority of your requirements and practically eliminate the capsize issues altogether.
    Thanks Whiskeyfox,
    The Mirror would only be used to test out ideas, I would still design a new boat.
    The board is a bit of concern, was planing to put the mast very far forward, cat boat style. This would bring the board forward and make mast stepping easier. I was also going to cut away the trailing edge and reduce height at the aft end of the trunk.

    Do like twin leeboards, it gives a lot of advantages.

    I do like the idea of a trimaran, I think easy independent launching and recovery has to be a top requirement, think a monohull will be lightest and easiest. Will see where this design takes me.

    Tink

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Rig???
    There's a tasty setup in a recent thread


    from this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ow-Cruiser-Rig There are others on the same thread.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    I'm on the verge of codgerhood and I've just recently fallen in love with the Loch Long One Design. I think I need to move to Scotland.






    You hike out on a Loch Long, but it's not like hiking out on a performance dinghy. Obviously with the low freeboard, this is not a "big water" boat, but still...
    YouTube video...boat not for sale any more..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ycp2IiCE0ZE



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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors



    Just under 21 feet LOA... class rules stipulate wood construction and wood masts. The last LLOD built was strip planked in about 1996 if I remember rightly. All the others are plank on frame. The boat was designed in 1937.
    Last edited by Alan H; 11-22-2016 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Twilight - a design for older sailors

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Rig???
    There's a tasty setup in a recent thread


    from this thread http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ow-Cruiser-Rig There are others on the same thread.
    Thanks, a good suggestion, the RSS rig would work. We discussed rigs on the sister thread 'design for old codgers'
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...or-old-codgers

    The rough intention was to use an existing rig that allowed reefing by rolling the sail rout the mast such as the Solway Dory Bermudan rig, Topper or Pico.

    I think it is important that our older sailor can easily set the sail area to the conditions before going out.

    Tink

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