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Thread: Lightweight sail and oar boat

  1. #1
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    Default Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Any good ideas for a lightweight sail and oar boat; length around 14-17 ft., weight less than 100 kg (including rig)? The rig should be unstayed.

    I have been considering Oughtred´s Elf or Elfyn, but I am sure there are other designs around.

    I will probably have it built somewhere in Europe.

    The boat will be used mainly during the winter season (November to March) at the coast around Stavanger, Norway. It needs to be seaworthy, preferably with two rowing stations (fixed seat).
    Last edited by kleppar; 11-10-2016 at 03:24 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default

    All Iain Oughtred's boats are good ideas but you may have to go a little longer and a little heavier to get the winter seaworthiness and two rowing stations. I had a Caledonia Yawl that had two rowing stations but it was 20' long and weighed probably twice your 100 kg weight limit.

    My next boat build will be a Welford's Long Steps. Have you checked out that design? It's 18.5' long and has a cuddy to give you some protection from the cold but it too is heavier and longer than what you want.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Will you be sleeping aboard? Two adults? Why the light weight requirement -- transport, storage or ?? The light weight and seaworthy requirements are nearly exact opposites.
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Two rowing stations in a boat that size might be a tall order.

    However, boatbuilder Kees Prins showed a new boat he hadn't quite finished, at the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Show in September, that might fill the bill:






    Alex

    "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we only be drowned now and again" Aran Islands Fisherman

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Actually Welsford Walkabout meets your spec very well.

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/walkabout/

    Very seaworthy as this picture shows




  6. #6
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    There is quite a few to choose from.

    You really need 3 rowing stations. Especially as the boat gets smaller and lighter: your weight movements will exert greater influence if you ever expect to use it solo.

    One over the LCB for solo rowing and the other two spaced either side, so that the lines are not compromised and also so that the keel immersion is correct and the boat tracks properly. If it's optimum you would have a slightly aft LCB from the middle for sailing in a breeze and position the single thwart position slightly forward so that the LCB moves to middle or slightly forward to improve the boats slow froude speed rowing efficiency. You'd have a forward rowing position when with a second person, and your rowing thwart would move toward the stern in balance. The Gartside oar and sail boats like Bob and the Coastal rowing boat, have this figured out the most, and you might want to adapt the moving thwart system for any proposed boat.



    There is a slight issue with Elf I think in that the two rowing positions are balanced but an optional central thwart position for solo rowing would actually be over the daggerboard if I remember. So that takes some thought regarding foil position and sail cofe position to enable all this to work, though I guess it could be a simple detachable arrangement.

    I'd also say that if you want decks and buoyancy chambers, in the line of self recovery for cold water 'sea worthy', then you would have to be on the slightly shorter length side, to keep it under 100kg probably. You can make up speed under press of sail and boat space by having a transom. This also maintains the beam aft, so that when on the aft rowing station oarlock the oar length is still correct. Steps to improve rowing performance: reducing waterline beam, weight and freeboard make it worse for sailing especially for European winter when you want the opposite.

    Some other light ones include Vivier's Creizic, Chase's Koster, Lillistone's Phoenix, Gartside Dispatch, Welsford Walkabout. If you build one yourself 15ft is good for just the one scarf in the planking!
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-11-2016 at 05:06 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I will not be sleeping aboard; two adults. Since I plan to dry sail, I want to launch from a hand pushed dolly rather than a car trailer.

    Norwegian double enders are lightweight, but fairly seaworthy.
    Last edited by kleppar; 11-11-2016 at 06:51 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Some other light ones include Vivier's Creizic, Chase's Koster, Lillistone's Phoenix, Gartside Dispatch, Welsford Walkabout. If you build one yourself 15ft is good for just the one scarf in the planking!
    The Phoenix III is a great boat, one of my favorites, but one compromise it made was to leave out a second rowing thwart to make the centerboard work. With a passenger aboard, the transom does drag while rowing--it rows very well for one person, but noticeably not as well with two.

    It could certainly be launched from a hand trolley.

    It would be very crowded with any more than 2 adults aboard.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat



    Oughtred John Dory has the correct thwart layout, incorporating the case for one or two without messing. He lists it at 86kg hull only, so it might approach 100kg if your ruthless with construction. Supposed to have alot of rig options in the plan. Easy outboard installation later for a low power launch.

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    When you say "launched from a hand trolley" -- do you have experience with this, and/or have a dolly in mind? I roll several boats around on their trailers quite often (my backyard and garage storage involves a Chinese Puzzle routine to get 'em in and out) -- and anything over 200lbs will be a real chore if you mean rolling it over sand, mud or uneven ground. Tell us more...
    "The enemies of reason have a certain blind look."
    Doctor Jacquin to Lieutenant D'Hubert, in Ridley Scott's first major film _The Duellists_.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I plan to use the launching site called Ramsvig.
    I use a hand trolley for smaller craft weighing about 50 kg, but have no experience with boats closer to 100 kg. Will probably park the trailer next to the launching site, on the gravel road; as you can see the ground is not too uneven.
    Last edited by kleppar; 12-09-2016 at 06:21 PM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I spoke to Mr Oughtred on the phone yesterday; he would be very happy to see an Elfyn (after all, a design from my part of Norway) built in Vendia.

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    What sort of hand cart? The large inflatable wheels with proper bearings (like these) that we use with catamarans makes moving a 180kg Formula 18 a one-finger operation, quite literally.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I prefer one mast (this time).....

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I don't think Vendia is a balanced plank. It's also only available in narrower widths. Both features will affect a 3 plank boat with a high shear. You'd have to multistrake it and put in cross frames. You might be better starting with the Wemys skiff.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I shall contact Vendia and ask about the width of planks.
    Last edited by kleppar; 11-12-2016 at 10:18 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    After some research and some advise, I am now leaning towards Phoenix III - rows well, several rigs to play with, unstayed mast, space for small outboard, apparently excellent drawings, etc. Welsford Walkabout seems to be similar, but has two masts....

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    After some research and some advise, I am now leaning towards Phoenix III - rows well, several rigs to play with, unstayed mast, space for small outboard, apparently excellent drawings, etc. Welsford Walkabout seems to be similar, but has two masts....
    Phoenix III is a great boat--I hope you'll post some pictures of sailing along the coast of Norway. I'd love to do some cruising there.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Welcome to Stavanger - I live about half a kilometer from the sea - islands, fjords, and also close to the open sea. I am also thinking about having it built in Vendia, possibly 5 mm to make it even lighter. Should I go for the the stitch and glue First Mate of the clinker Phoenix 3?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    The only difference I know is that the First Mate is slightly beamier, but really they're virtually identical. The designer has said that First Mate might be slightly faster than the Phoenix III if that matters to you. If I were doing the building I'd rather build in lapstrake.

    Sounds like you have some great cruising grounds--I have explored that stretch of the coast by Google Earth, wishing I were sailing instead...

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Go skin-on-frame with an unstayed rig. Use flotation bags.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Skin on frame - which boat?

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Something with a round-ish bottom that would translate to SOF. Google "umiak."

    Here's a Ness Yawl converted to SOF. I'm not sure who built it.




    Below is a whitehall designed by Dave Gentry. Those are my legs. I built that a couple years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Very interesting; I remember I looked at this some time ago. A Phoenix 3 skin on frame - is that possible?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    Very interesting; I remember I looked at this some time ago. A Phoenix 3 skin on frame - is that possible?
    Why not ask Ross Lillistone, the Phoenix III designer. There is a Facebook page for Ross Lillistone boats.

    Graeme

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    Very interesting; I remember I looked at this some time ago. A Phoenix 3 skin on frame - is that possible?
    There's a lot of interior furniture/bulkheads/sealed tanks in the standard Phoenix III, including lots of deck, so I'm not sure how much sense it would make to do the hull in SOF. Then again, I've never built in SOF so I don't have any first-hand knowledge to judge from.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I took the liberty to write to Dave Gentry; looking forward to his answer. For you information, may I introduce an alternative rig for the Phoenix 3 (came to think of it when I saw the round mast base) - a poor man´s Ljungström rig (link here).

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    There's a lot of interior furniture/bulkheads/sealed tanks in the standard Phoenix III, including lots of deck, so I'm not sure how much sense it would make to do the hull in SOF. Then again, I've never built in SOF so I don't have any first-hand knowledge to judge from.

    Tom
    That's a good point. You'd end up with an extremely simplified interior layout in order to lighten the boat while working with the steamed/bent rib construction. There wouldn't be any bulkheads and watertight chambers.

    I've considered building a largish umiak for local crabbing and salmon fishing. I'd probably put an interior motor well into it. A builder could work in a centerboard trunk and mast partner. It'd be super classy.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    I took the liberty to write to Dave Gentry; looking forward to his answer. For you information, may I introduce an alternative rig for the Phoenix 3 (came to think of it when I saw the round mast base) - a poor man´s Ljungström rig (link here).
    Lightweight sail and oar boat are the reason I checked out this thread. Glad I did - I can't find an email from you, Kleppar (that I know of) . . . always best to mail me at GentryCustomBoats@yahoo.com

    Check out Cape Falcon Kayak, too - Brian built a SOF version of a Joel White Shearwater and cruised it around Baja California.

    Dave

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    I have now sent to the correct address (my first was sent to gentryboats@gmail.com). Looking forward to your response.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Quote Originally Posted by kleppar View Post
    Any good ideas for a lightweight sail and oar boat; length around 14-17 ft., weight less than 100 kg (including rig)? The rig should be unstayed.

    I have been considering Oughtred´s Elf or Elfyn, but I am sure there are other designs around.
    Take a look at "Hela": http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...quot-Hela-quot
    I would love to build another one.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Anyone else locally doing the same sort of rowing/sailing at that time of year?

    If so, what types of boats are they using?
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    Admittedly, not many are doing this activity at this time of the year.....

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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Lightweight sail and oar boat

    How many hours would it take a professional builder to make Phoenix III?

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