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Thread: Designs for old codgers

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I think a lot of us have the codger stage in the foreseeable future. I do not think it is an age thing. I have known a lot of really old folks that kept on doing life. I have also known folks that sort of gave up on life at a relatively early age and moved sort of willingly into codgery, and some that became codgers kicking and screaming all the way.
    My own father was in the latter camp. He sold his sailboat and bought a small power cruiser. Unfortunately even that was too much. I remember taking about 10 minutes walking down the dock to get to the boat, as he struggled with the heart and exertion. He did live for about 6 more good years but the only boat he got on was a BC Ferry. He continued to build models and write memoirs.
    There will come a point, if I live long enough, and don't do something really foolish, that I will have to ease back. I am hoping it might happen in stages. perhaps a smaller boat, perhaps of some snot-like material.
    I like those little tri's, and Scamp or something similar might be reasonable. Kayaks and peddle boats may prolong this stage. For someone like my Father with real heart issues ( this was massively improved after surgery) Perhaps an electric drive. How about a Shanty-boat?? can enjoy a floating experience without actually doing much of anything.
    Last edited by gilberj; 11-07-2016 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Hobie have electric motor which can be deployed on the stern or fitted down the housing which takes the paddles.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhQtOCTyo

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    If NED was built with a slot to take a Hobie drive or even their electric motor it would offer even more options. Looking at the study plans for her it would seem that the slot would intrude into the sleeping space area and possibly the ability to nest her, but not be a major problem for day sailing. The other consideration is to ensure that she would not flood through the slot if one moved forward in her ! What a great thread and much food for thought, thanks for starting it Brian.

    John
    Last edited by JDMH; 11-07-2016 at 04:17 PM.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers


  5. #75
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I like the idea of a 2 person boat, but wow the Nagere looks big...... I wonder at what point size, weight and wetted area start to make mirage propulsion hard work, even with 2 people?

    If you think the current mirage drive is expensive, check out the likely cost of the new reversible model! That said it's probably a good idea, it's not like you can just paddle backwards....... I did some checking and they can be found cheaper online, but I'm not sure what the go is with posting overseas.

    Brian, I can still see you in a stripped down CLC expedition canoe, set up as a trimaran with one of those pop up kayak sails for down wind fun.....

  6. #76

    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    also depends on your concept of "codger" !

    most seem to be considering those whose body has aged faster than their brain - hence the 'light and easy' emphasis

    but I have reached the stage where I like to be able to have a brew-up on a whim, or a nice lay down or snooze, or just sit comfortably and enjoy the outdoors .....

    perhaps my brain has gone before my body - but, hey, I've done it all and got the Tee-shirts ...

    but I have put a ('proper' rule-cheating - not your little toy bits o' rag you see everywhere) Jackyard topsail on so that, in appropriately benign conditions, I can relive a bit of glory.

    "Shoal Waters" would suit me fine.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I remember Bill Garden sailing very late into his life in the original 'Tom Cat' He was seriously old at that point and had enough resources I guess to employ an attendant full time I think. A young and quite attractive woman to sail with him. Anyway I saw him out with the same young woman .....easily a dozen times. She did most of the real work, and he largely sailed with a big grin on his face. I will not be able to afford the same level of attention.....damn-it. but I think that is a reasonably attractive end game....We all have an end game, that one seems better than most others I have witnessed.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Think I have remembered how the tri's can be narrowed for storage at dinghy park or towed home. Without disassembly.

    The Sardine Run 19 has alloy crossbeams of two diameters. One just slides inside the other. The amas can then slide inwards and he presto, narrow enough to store.


  9. #79
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    Herons are popular in my club amongst the older generation. Definitely a sit in rather than sit on boat.
    The problem if they aren't moored then they are a heavy beast to get down to the waters edge. But many hands make light work!
    I think my data is correct
    Heron LOA 11.25' Hull 64kg all up estimate 79kg
    Gull LOA 11.00' Hull 88 kg all up estimate 103kg
    Mirror LOA 10.83' Hull 45kg all up 61kg
    Cadet LOA 10.56' Hull 54kg all up estimate 69kg
    Streaker LOA 12.75' Hull 48kg all up estimate 63kg
    Hartley 10 LOA 10' Hull 45kg all up estimate 60kg
    Hartley 12 LOA 12' Hull 62kg all up estimate 77kg

    (Came accross the two Hartleys while researching, they fit the design brief to some extent but not quite got the ergonomics I would desire and and roto moulded)

    I think I would want a target weight of 40 - 45kg. There is very little wrong with the mirror IMHO other than perhaps the boom a bit low for a less flexible crew.

    Thinking about getting the most boat for the least weight, one key factor has to be the overall dimensions.

    Reduce beam, reduced stability until it requires the addition of outriggers and more weight
    Reduce freeboard, starts to feel less of a secure sit in boat but easier to get back into
    Reduce length, reduces speed
    Chop off bow - pram, more stability for given length

    So I am trending towards an 11ft pram with sit in sailing with side benches but still lots of other details like getting back in, rig, buoyancy tanks etc.

    Just thinking out loud in public

    Tink

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I never seen that 'san-pram' before, but that skeg makes it awkward. How doe that Harry Bryan 'beaver/fish-tail' device work out? I ve bad knees, so any leg propulsion is out for me, but the mirage drive wont work in really skinny water. Im thinking you might make a dory style folding propshaft so might possibly have an efficient prop?
    Will the UK government supply cheap mirage units under the 'mobility scheme' ?
    This upcoming old cantankerous codger will only use a paddle when needed, a small outboard when i want, and sail when its convenient. A Welsford 'sherpa' might suit as a monohull, or even a passagemaker pram from clc, if not going into open waters, but im interested in a tri-concept.......might get lucky to pick up a young 'string-pulling-chick' if you have a fancy looking modern thing.....

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    My view on this is possibly irrelevant as the thread seems 100% concerned with dinghy sailing.Another posssible way of getting afloat is to go along with a friendly keelboat sailor. The club I belong to has a scheme called "meandering". One morning a week those wishing to go for a sail, both boat owners and non boat owners, meet at the club, skippers say how many they can take and crews are formed. We then sail to an anchorage , chosen taking into account the weather and tidal conditions, we raft up for a social lunch, and then sail back. New friendships are made and the world put to rights. I am an octogenarian but am lucky enough to still have and sail my own 35' cruiser, I have taken many others out, everyone has something to offer even if its doing the washing up! It seems the secret may be to find or form a group, more hands make light work.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I'm with you, Jeremy.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Exploration of any and all ways to get old codger sailing is good. A pal uses his 40'er to take people out every week from the Town Sailing Club.

    Good that so far we have strong ideas and concepts on micro-multis, light monos, SOT's, club launches, crewing on potters.

    Brian

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Jeremy, I expect that lots of us use the OPB (other people's boats) method of sailing. Two of us and sometimes three, sail and race regularly on one 34 footer and there many other local "codgers" doing the same. I'm restricted from the strenuous work but am still competitive at the wheel. Last regular race was this past Saturday but the annual New Years "Instead of Football" race is coming up. I favor the small folding tri as a good craft for seniors with some mobility issues.
    Tom L

  15. #85
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    This is a VERY basic sketch in no way intended to be to scale, in proportion or even the right plan view, just exploring ideas



    1. The seating area is inside the boat, when tacking the helm can slide around the curve facing aft without standing up.
    2. Conventional centre board so no lifting of a dagger board
    3. Water ballast
    4. Roll around the mast sail for quick reefing, control led so can be fully furled when capsized
    5. Sealed mast and water ballast ensure boat can't invert
    6. When capsized floats with board close to the water
    7. Re-entry area, like a hollow slipper launch stern possibly with fold down ladder and grab handles



    Still just thinking out loud and on public.

    Tink


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  16. #86
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Whatever happened to the slightly modified Trika 540 that took part in R2A? I never did hear back from Klaus, but still think a Trika is a good option, but a slightly fatter main hull with sponsons and a narrower beam could also work like Ostlinds model. Im interested in building one before i reach codgerdom anyway.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Looking at the sketch makes me think that twin rudders may help with reboarding? Would need a rig that either can be let out to fly ahead of the mast or dropped whilst in the water to make reboarding less exciting though? Like the idea overall.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Tink, that's looking excellent. A number of our Scow sailors gave up when they could not climb back into their Scow after a capsize. The very high tank volumes speced for rules means no water comes in and boats floats too high. I was never keen on trying to get back in over the stern, with full rig pulling forward agains the shrouds. Your concepts work with sail rolled up. and low stern to get back in.

    Klaus, I think, is working on 4.8 tri, very light solo, deeper hul sides, 6.5m roll up battened rig. Folding amas, contols like Seacipper.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 11-08-2016 at 03:08 PM.

  19. #89
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    Thanks for the positive comments Brian and Clarkey, the rudder post has annoyed me all day, twin rudders would work.

    Only the second sketch I have done with this app but hopefully it gets the idea across,



    Tink


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  20. #90
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I think the U shaped seating is genius - as you move forward to get the transom out of the water in lighter air the seating position comes closer to the centreline, hopefully preventing the need to be bent double all the time.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    A few years ago I saw an older guy (codger/geezer is so harsh) in a kayak sitting back in his boat, arms crossed, grin on his face and "simply messing about" on a local impound lake. Propulsion was a nice quiet electric trolling motor hidden under the aft deck. Nice work if you can get it.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    The concept of a light ply hull, electric or outboard placed behind the paddler, so no trying to reach right to the back of the boat, is well worth exploring.

    This small 1.2 hp outboard could be perfect if you can locate stock.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/1-2HP-1-2HP.../dp/B01A3MREBW


  23. #93
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Essentially an afordable version of the Hobie eVolve systen.


  24. #94
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Hum,
    I had figured that I would use a rotating mast to furl the sail. I thought that it would easy to link the out haul to the mast rotation. As the sail was unfurled the out haul would be tensioned simple by pulling one line. There is brief mention of such a system on Frank Smoots Slingshot on Duckworks

    'The boom outhaul is another clever Smoot feature. It connects to a piece of PVC which slides on the boom, so you have the benefit of a track while reefing even though the boat has a loose footed sail. The sail itself reefs by rotating the unstayed mast.'

    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/16/...m#.WCOHuLTfWhA

    Other than this I can't see any reference to this on Frank's web site, all the photos have bits on the boom so the clew can't travel the length of the boom.

    I appreciate it is a more complex problem than it first sounds but would be very interested if anyone knows of such a system working reliably.

    A far simpler system used on Hobies and many more is no boom but this has a number of drawbacks
    1) large sheet loads, not ideal for our demographic
    2) long boat to get sheeting angle correct
    3) not proper reefing due to change of sheeting angle
    4) down wind compromised due to lack of boom

    Anyway, thoughts greatly appreciated

    Tink

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Hum,
    I had figured that I would use a rotating mast to furl the sail. I thought that it would easy to link the out haul to the mast rotation. As the sail was unfurled the out haul would be tensioned simple by pulling one line. There is brief mention of such a system on Frank Smoots Slingshot on Duckworks

    'The boom outhaul is another clever Smoot feature. It connects to a piece of PVC which slides on the boom, so you have the benefit of a track while reefing even though the boat has a loose footed sail. The sail itself reefs by rotating the unstayed mast.'

    http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/16/...m#.WCOHuLTfWhA

    Other than this I can't see any reference to this on Frank's web site, all the photos have bits on the boom so the clew can't travel the length of the boom.

    I appreciate it is a more complex problem than it first sounds but would be very interested if anyone knows of such a system working reliably.

    A far simpler system used on Hobies and many more is no boom but this has a number of drawbacks
    1) large sheet loads, not ideal for our demographic
    2) long boat to get sheeting angle correct
    3) not proper reefing due to change of sheeting angle
    4) down wind compromised due to lack of boom

    Anyway, thoughts greatly appreciated

    Tink
    Tink,

    I recognized Frank's great innovations a some years ago and I see that he has not stopped adding new ones. Not being the least influenced by conventional boating practice before he retired allowed him to develop do the unusual devices he has. The issue of boarding from a dock in cold water may need some more thought. Perhaps a lightweight gangplank that can be stored in or on the hull somewhere or lashed to the akas when a beach is not available.

    I'm in completer agreement about the boomless sail and don't like them for the same reasons.
    Tom L

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    The Solway Dory beamudan rig actually works very well and might well suit. It's well made and well resolved so it works. For UK it is reasonably priced too. At 5 sq m a nice soze too.

    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles...-bermudan-rig/

    Brian

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Hi Brian. Thanks for starting yet another interesting discussion. I am now 75, but not yet affected by codgeritis except that my balance is not what it used to be, (or I am more cautious). Good genes (= luck), good diet, and regular gym workouts for many years. All the ideas presented are interesting, and the ones one chooses will depend on one's needs; time available, location, type of sailing, money available, ability, etc. I think it was the late Phil Bolger who said (in jest I suppose as most of his designs did not fulfil the criteria) that a boat should be either big enough to live on or small enough to carry. As I have no desire to live on a boat (nor does my wife) I am turning towards the other alternative. After sailing my skin-on-frame 15 foot Bufflehead sailing canoe, my 16 foot Apple ketch (135 kg hull weight) seems huge and unwieldy, and requires a trailer and launching ramp, and leaving it at a dock. Sailing it alone requires some agility in unsteady winds unless I reef a lot. 90 kg of lead ballast helps stabilise it. The Bufflehead weighs about 50 kg all up, and with two lead bricks from the Apple, weighing together 32 kg under the seat as ballast, I can safely stand in her. She easily holds enough gear for a few days cruising. It could be slept in but I use a tent as there are always places to land and camp in Sweden. I can still get her in and out of the water and on and off a cart on my own, but I need help to get her on and off the roof rack. Axel Schmid's plywood Artemis sailing canoe discussed on another of Brian's threads would be quite a bit lighter at 25 kg for the hull vs. 37 for mine. I just bought and installed a KayakSailor sloop rig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY44DTiQA9A on my 14 foot S&G plywood sea kayak, and the Bufflehead now seems big. This boat holds camping and other gear for a weekend, or more depending on your requirements. The Bufflehead cat ketch rig has two mainsail reefs and the mizzen can be doused by folding it against the mast, and the KayakSailor rig (1.4 Sq M mainsail + 0.4 Sq M genoa) has one reef in the mainsail and the jib can be removed but not while sailing. I could make up a furling system for it. The whole rig can be raised and lowered easily while on the water by an ingenious system of blocks, lines and shock cord. Both boats can be paddled with the sail rig up, and you sit in a seat facing forward. Both have leeboards, foot steering and a rudder and the Bufflehead has two push-pull "Norwegian" tillers as well. Both track well yet also turn easily. The kayak weighs 16 kg without the easily removed rig (two webbing straps and piece of thin line) so I have no difficulty carrying it and putting it on the roof rack. I am thinking of installing a Hobie Sidekick outrigger kit on these small boats as insurance. It weighs very little. But as others have pointed out regarding trimarans, it restricts where you can launch and land. A beach is best. I doubt if I could mount it while sitting in the boat, but will think about how to do that. At this rate of decreasing boat size, when I am 90, my boats will be in the bathtub, and I'll imagine sailing them by blowing on the sails.
    Peter Lord

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Hi Peter, nice to hear from you, good to read your knowedgeable contribution. The more I thought about the Solway Dory rigs the more I think they could very well with OCC design. (OCC old codgers class!)

    They already make them in 6m, 5m, and 4m bermudan. Plus 25sqmt Expedition rig. I think they supply anywhere by post by sending sail, fittings and build spars using local alloy tubing. Would have to check.

    http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/articles...-bermudan-rig/

    When I first used their rig after 10 years of lug rigs, it struck me just how pleasant, eseasy, hassle free it was to use. Always being so easy to have the correct amount of sail was brilliant. Just going down to the waters edge to launch, there was no flapping, noisy rig. The sail is furled around the mast. Get everything ready, release the furling cleat, pull out the outhaul unfurles the sail, hook on the kicker which then holds the boom\mast from more rotation. It really is a nice rig.

    Expedition 25sqm rig



    Bermudan rig



    Brian

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Here I am with just the 4m rig on the Solent


  30. #100
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    The Kruger Dreamcatcher seems to represent a succesful design used widely on the EC events.

    http://www.krugercanoes.com/Products.html



    Anyone know of a ply design which has this style of hull and deck. A proper stable hull which takes a smail sail .
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 11-10-2016 at 07:26 AM.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers


  32. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Tink,

    I recognized Frank's great innovations a some years ago and I see that he has not stopped adding new ones. Not being the least influenced by conventional boating practice before he retired allowed him to develop do the unusual devices he has. The issue of boarding from a dock in cold water may need some more thought. Perhaps a lightweight gangplank that can be stored in or on the hull somewhere or lashed to the akas when a beach is not available.

    I'm in completer agreement about the boomless sail and don't like them for the same reasons.

    Dear Tom
    Reading through this post it is becoming increasingly obvious that we all have different views of who our old codger is. To help I have tried to classic our old codger. To try and remain positive and hopefully not offend I have just scored each ability out of 4, hope this makes sense. I am very happy to adjust this table as the forum sees fit, please don't think I own it. For simplicity as it says as the name goes up the alphabet the difficulty and help required increases.

    I see myself designs for Damon and Jordon, when a gang plank is required I think we are heading towards Zane.



    A further complexity is we all have a different view of what we want out of sailing. I am a dyed in the wool dinghy sailor, I sail on a lake in North Yorkshire which is an hour away from my home. The weather rarely obeys the forecast so if I turn up at the club I want to be able to sail so want sail area flexibility. This has a heavily influence on my design.




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    When I first used their rig after 10 years of lug rigs, it struck me just how pleasant, eseasy, hassle free it was to use. Always being so easy to have the correct amount of sail was brilliant. Just going down to the waters edge to launch, there was no flapping, noisy rig. The sail is furled around the mast. Get everything ready, release the furling cleat, pull out the outhaul unfurles the sail, hook on the kicker which then holds the boom\mast from more rotation. It really is a nice rig.
    Hi Brian,
    I agree with you the Solway Dory gear is good and well sorted. From their website

    REEFING

    Firstly uncleat and slacken the outhaul.
    Slacken and unhook the kicker.
    Turn the mast so as to roll up the sail.
    The more turns you do the smaller the sail becomes.
    Reconnect and tighten the kicker.
    Tighten and cleat the outhaul.

    I was thinking something as simple as, pull reefing line but with a boom. Something like this but with a boom.
    https://youtu.be/0_5s0bTaQVg

    One of the reasons is to aid recovery from capsize, I would like to be able to roll the sail up when capsized and the right it, possibly a pipe dream or something to complex to be reliable.

    Tink

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    The SD rig is basically a better version of the Hobie. Much better sail control, sail design and performance. Dave can sail upwind and reef as he carries on sailing. I also like how familiar to any dinghy sailor the rig will be.

    Brian

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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    i guess i don't really understand...

    being one who is chronologically advancing w/ a few limitations imposed by said age as well as some abuse to my body administered by the front bumper of an automobile and the lingering effects thereof... I AM AT A LOSS trying to understand those of you who are advocating a sailing canoe no matter how easy the rig is FOR AN OLD CODGER

    in all seriousness i am looking at Michael Storer's OZ-GOOSE

    kinda like another element of MAN'S desired elements of existence UGLY BUTT USEFULL...

    simple, stable & doesn't $et you back too much

    the rig can be reduced for up to & including breezes in the 25 knot range

    with full sail it wil move nicely in light breezes

    it can be sailed in skinny water making it possible to sail from a beach

    the stable nature allows safe entry from a dock/pier

    the elements of the rig are light enough to allow a CODGER to rig one solo

    they can be transported in the back of a pickup or on a small trailer

    and they can be stored on their side taking up a minimum of precious space

    I GUESS I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

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