Designs for old codgers

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  • wtarzia
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 2104

    Re: Designs for old codgers

    Originally posted by Woxbox
    I think it's just a quick way to rotate the mast to the desired angle.
    --- That sounds right. The line with purchase on it must be for the vang and gets it more within reach. -- Wade

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    • tink
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2011
      • 1386

      It is an old IC sail, bit flat but I already had it. I will say the the tests where a bit Edison, results to work with. The 'container' has a strop around it and hooks under the leeboard, there is an old roller from a lawn mover in there also. With the canoe fully swamped I was able to get in fine and in provided I kept my weight on the container side able to bail. If I went slightly the other way an immediate capsize and swim followed. I was doing this between races with most of the sailing club enjoying the entertainment. I did a few more tests trying to use simple rope loop as a ladder. At this point the strop knots*had started to loosen and the buoyancy was coming into play too late and not really helping that much. I then did a few experiments pulling the container down as per the sketch, which worked ok but I didn't quite have the 'stuff' to perfect the idea.
      So what next, I will try the idea in the sketch it gives total control of the buoyancy and also a better ladder system. I do feel confident enough, depending on the weather, to go unsupported on the Tees, I have sailed him before in a gusty F3 without incident, the safety boat was not as confident as me and constantly shadowed me.
      Big thanks Brian, by writing this I have clarified my thoughts, sorry though one and all, well off topic.


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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      • keyhavenpotterer
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2007
        • 4868

        Re: Designs for old codgers

        thanks tink

        not off topic at all

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        • tink
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 1386

          Re: Designs for old codgers

          This was one of my inspirations, watch from 3.00 https://youtu.be/Z6sH9iAtyBk

          clearly they don't have a sail.

          My my thoughts are
          1) open canoe, plain and simple don't capsize due to: design, location and weather. Location allows drifting or swim ashore with tow line
          2) expect rare capsize but have righting technique that may be cumbersome but reliable
          3) occasionally capsize and have quick, reliable, and permanently rigged righting system. Basically outriggers.

          For my current situation I am loving exploring a sheltered and relatively narrow river, and bouncing between 1 and 2 but if it was simple and light enough want 3

          Comment

          • rudderless
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2016
            • 393

            Re: Designs for old codgers

            Originally posted by tink
            Location allows drifting or swim ashore with tow line
            I have started carrying small flippers and snorkle mask on my smallest boats for that purpose. Mask probably not needed, because what seems to work best is keep head dry on my back with tow line connected to pfd. Then my arms can windmill to assist the kicking. By mistake I had bought some "resistance" fins long ago which idiotically were not to propel you but to resist and strengthen you, so I whittled off some reinforcement and it now kicks powerfully.

            P.S. I think the canoe concept is self sabotaging from the reboard perspective. Contrast how a sit-on-top kayak can have essentially the same shaped wetted hull with lower freeboard at the bow and stern. Then it is easy to reboard at a certain exact point of the front or back where the narrowness prevents a roll reaction, and the low buoyancy lets you easily slide the craft under your torso. Then you roll towards the center of the boat.

            There is little need for a canoe's upswept bow or stern with the sit-on-top self bailing design. The rare spray that the upsweep would shield can run toward scuppers (not just at the rear) in your now double floor which keeps you dry. You might think the double floor prevents a comfy deep footwell for upright seating, but imagine the kayak as a yard or more wide and with a raised seat. Mine are in the 36-39" range with enough stability to resist heeling of a considerably lighter sail and mast setup. I can weight shift a bit and the flexi mast spills wind in gusts... simple and usually carefree.
            1 salvaged sailboat of waterlogged timbers reinforced by 12 ft of fiberglass seam tape
            1 custom kayak of plywood stitched with copper wire and 12 ft of fiberglass seam tape

            Comment

            • tink
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2011
              • 1386

              Thanks Rudderless, love the flipper idea.
              Your points about the SOT are very valid. It is a case of 'wouldn't have started here'. I designed and built the canoe to paddle a local river and thought that was all I would want to do. As I explored I discovered not only how beautiful the river was but how fantastic it would be to sail it. A dedicated SOT sailing canoe sounds very appealing will give that some thought.
              The River Tees



              Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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              • tink
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 1386

                Been doing a bit of a mock up. I have a paddle float so decided that if I also use that I will get even more stability and the shaft of the paddle is very handy to hook your foot over to get in.
                The storage of the container is not ideal but its attachment line clashes with the paddle blade strop and stopping it sitting neatly behind the yoke.
                Pretty confident that this will get me to the bank of my little river, but hopefully the need to use it will be rare.




                Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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                • WAGrunter
                  Member
                  • Apr 2017
                  • 33

                  Re: Designs for old codgers

                  May I be so bold ! Would a mast here or there be a disaster ?

                  Comment

                  • Matt young
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2015
                    • 593

                    Re: Designs for old codgers

                    That is a good looking SOT kayak above, way better looking than most I have seen. In my experience they often end up too far on the stability side of the stability vs paddle efficiency compromise, slow pigs fun for poking around but not distance.

                    I have spent sometime sailing mine last couple years. I do like the advantages of the SOT. No bailing, no flotation to worry about, easy reentry, and on warm days a fresh close to the water experience. For me some of the downsides are on cold days its wet and you have to strap down your gear more seriously than in a canoe or skiff. But the biggest issue for me in higher winds and rougher water, which i do enjoy sailing the board in, is that the low bow volume is an issue. I can dig the nose in when pushing hard into waves, with the lake chop I usually am sailing in I usually pierce through, but have had a couple close calls with following seas pushing me deeper. I am rebuilding mine now, replacing the transom with a pointed stern that should help. For me it has been a tight line to walk between a board that paddles well and cuts through chop efficiently and a board that has good bow volume to rise over waves. I think a properly designed canoe has a better chance of doing both of these. I have conceived of other more elaborate alterations to this board but will probably stop with the stern rebuild and move on.

                    I spent last year sailing my 16' plastic canoe, I totally enjoyed the experience and gained a number of opinions about canoe sailing. So this year I will be building a sailing canoe. And giving that a go. Here is a picture of my sailing SUP or SOT or SUPSOTS (standup paddleboard sit on top sailer) now I am being silly.


                    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
                    -The Dude-

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                    • WAGrunter
                      Member
                      • Apr 2017
                      • 33

                      Re: Designs for old codgers

                      What about this : https://youtu.be/7bUxWQ9Kxcg

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                      • WAGrunter
                        Member
                        • Apr 2017
                        • 33

                        Re: Designs for old codgers

                        https://youtu.be/45VWToCENYg. I too have a plastic sailing/fishing canoe .
                        Last edited by WAGrunter; 04-04-2017, 08:37 AM.

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                        • tink
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2011
                          • 1386

                          Re: Designs for old codgers

                          This is a lovely complex problem, and there is certainly no one solution that will satisfy all. Personally simplicity is key and that centres around minimal part count and light parts. I was out in my 12' x 30" canoe today, the ease of getting a light canoe from garage, car roof and water can't be beaten. I want to add sailing without loosing what I have with just the canoe. I get the advantages of the SOT but just to remain dry you have to have a higher centre of gravity and that has to be countered with more beam and so drag. My daughter has a SOT and today for the last 1/2 mile I towed her. With my canoe once up to speed paddling is an effortless rhythm. Towing my 4 stone daughter in the SOT was hard work. Though I love the idea of a couple of outriggers I would like to see if I can sail comfortably without the extra bits.

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                          • upchurchmr
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2009
                            • 2518

                            Re: Designs for old codgers

                            Tink,

                            There is a whole group of people doing just that.

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                            • WAGrunter
                              Member
                              • Apr 2017
                              • 33

                              Re: Designs for old codgers

                              This is very likeable .

                              Comment

                              • tink
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2011
                                • 1386

                                Re: Designs for old codgers

                                Originally posted by upchurchmr
                                Tink,

                                There is a whole group of people doing just that.
                                http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/for...Sailing-Canoes
                                Thanks, I have posted on SOP but value the much wider views and interests of this group. I realise I am somewhat re-inventing the wheel but maybe something new will come from it to the benefit of boaters in their twilight years.

                                Pottered with some final rigging today, forecast good for a test sail tomorrow. Hopefully I will not have to test my recovery method, will save that for the sailing club.

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