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Thread: Designs for old codgers

  1. #421
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers





    Just copy and paste

  2. #422

    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Thank you!

  3. #423
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    #380 to #397 are suggesting seats which are more comfortable than those you can buy off the shelf. Some innovative ideas and very good background literature were presented. I promised to give it a go, and have to report results now.

    I made a working prototype and tested it. Yes it is woth the bother, and works as expected. Well you can't paddle better with that seat, but the secret is you can do it longer, much longer. However, the hinge mechanism is crap and will be replaced with another mechanism.


    A small video is demonstrating what it does for me: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/img/HU...TON Vienna.mp4

    Pictures:








    Cheers! Axel

  4. #424
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Great work Axel!
    Bummer I can't just pop over and try one out. I am thrilled you like the feel of the backrest from the LFH style seat. I have found it suports my back very nicely without restriction. I am looking forward to your updated hinge.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  5. #425
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    ^ I might want something like that in my Chataqua, though i hope to be sailing it more than using a paddle.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoe_sailor View Post
    #380 to #397 are suggesting seats which are more comfortable than those you can buy off the shelf. Some innovative ideas and very good background literature were presented. I promised to give it a go, and have to report results now.

    I made a working prototype and tested it. Yes it is woth the bother, and works as expected. Well you can't paddle better with that seat, but the secret is you can do it longer, much longer. However, the hinge mechanism is crap and will be replaced with another mechanism.


    A small video is demonstrating what it does for me: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/img/HU...TON Vienna.mp4

    Pictures:
    Cheers! Axel


    Wow, now that is nice.
    I have gone on a different tack. For my 12' x 30" double paddle I have taken a standard SOT seat and worked on improving it. Firstly I have made a lumber support pad, I used ergonomic data to produce a contoured support from multiple layers of camping mat. That has improved the back comfort considerably. I am still finding the seat numbs my bum and have now used couple of kneeling mats and more camping mat to create a cushion. By sitting on tin foil I have precisely found the position of my sitting bones and drilled holes in the kneeling mats. I haven't tested this yet so will report back.

    Spend on these modifications 8 including carpet and double sided tape.

    Hope this makes sense

    Foil to find sitting bones


    Sitting bones holes in hard kneeling mat


    Two coverings of camping mat


    Lumbar support


    CAD for lumbar support




    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  7. #427
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Chris Noto: I'll be sixty-seven years old in October, and just this spring acquired the second member of my fleet, a Sea Pearl 21.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    you might consider a thread related to self rescue mods that wooden boat building skills could be utilized to accomplish. a forum member in excellent physical condition has found the SP impossible to self rescue (an issue with many designs) in stock, as manufactured condition.
    Thanks, Daniel, for offering that information. I think I may already have been put in touch with the person who recently had the capsize experience you mentioned. We are in the early stages of discussing the options available to mitigate that issue. I have, though, sent you a PM, so that, if the person is one I don't know of already, you might, with their permission, of course, introduce us.

    I had come across other mentions of this characteristic of the boat, but not until after my purchase. I'd been pretty serious about "due diligence," but there are not that many mentions or discussions of Sea Pearl capsizes or the attendant difficulty, no, near impossibility, of righting the boat without assistance. I found one mention of a Sea Pearl capsize at the Water Tribe Forum, in a discussion of a recent running of the Everglades Challenge, and found others after I discovered The Sea Pearl Mailing List, now a Yahoo Group.

    Having invested many hours in research, driving two thousand miles to examine and purchase the boat, and having invested thousands of dollars in that purchase, it is upsetting, to say the least, and even something like disheartening, to come to a clearer assessment of the vessel's capabilities and liabilities only now. To some extent, some similar post-purchase experience is inevitable. It's like getting married, and I say that as a person who has been married for forty-five years. You can't really know what it's like, as much as others try to tell you, until you do it. (Man, I sure wish that emoji wasn't blue!)

    I like your idea of starting a thread here at WBF, maybe something like "Small Boat Capsize & Recovery: Boat Design and Modifications," though that may be a bit too wordy. I'd love to hear your thoughts, and those of others here!

    All the best,
    Chris Noto

  8. #428
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Gentlemen! (in the non-sexist sense, of course) - here is my "Old Codgers" duckpunt.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4uFLFrT-y0&sns=em

    - if the link works?
    - see the second half of the short video

    rgdz,
    frank

  9. #429
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Exploration of any and all ways to get old codger sailing is good. A pal uses his 40'er to take people out every week from the Town Sailing Club.

    Good that so far we have strong ideas and concepts on micro-multis, light monos, SOT's, club launches, crewing on potters.

    Brian
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard of Woods Designs View Post
    I agree with those who are suggesting a small sailing trimaran as suitable for old codgers.

    A long thread and my apologies I only just scan read it. So I am not sure if my trimaran designs were mentioned. 10ft Tryst, 14ft Zeta and Strike 15 (which has folding outriggers) might fit the bill. I have built/owned all three. But am not yet an old codger, as I am only 63 and currently racing a Sunfish in the Bahamas.

    And all are designed for sailing in the Solent, which is much rougher than many places in the USA (I used to sail at Lymington, just east of Keyhaven)

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.p...arans-under-25

    and some may find these comments useful

    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.p...ling-trimarans

    Having said all that, my father is certainly an "old Codger" as he is still dinghy sailing at 92. he now has a Walker Bay 10 with inflatable tubes. That is because he can no longer learn back, he would fall over. And he wanted a light enough boat so he could pull it up the beach (Swanage) without help. Seems to still be working for him, he sailed it 21 times last year

    Richard Woods of Woods Designs

    www.sailingcatamarans.com
    I am glad you show up here, Richard, for I find this thread very interesting, and think your trimarans have much to offer. I find a long stretch sailing in my lugger often hard because I am restricted to one place to keep her upright, so I am sitting sideways and looking forward till my neck hurts. In your tri you can sit where you want, much more comfortable, and going forward to the mast without climbing over thwarts is also appealing, not to mention the speed and stability. I am looking forward to build one of them, but first I must build your design Zest and sail her to find out how I do as an old codger. Frank van Zoest

  10. #430
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I am glad you show up here, Richard, for I find this thread very interesting, and think your trimarans have much to offer. I find a long stretch sailing in my lugger often hard because I am restricted to one place to keep her upright, so I am sitting sideways and looking forward till my neck hurts. In your tri you can sit where you want, much more comfortable, and going forward to the mast without climbing over thwarts is also appealing, not to mention the speed and stability. I am looking forward to build one of them, but first I must build your design Zest and sail her to find out how I do as an old codger. Frank van Zoest
    I am not disagreeing with you that Trimarans are a good solution with minimal moving about, but as people age it is very important the keep mobile and move as much of their muscle groups as they can. Far better to move about on the water than in a 'keep active class' for senior citizens. For me the prime requirements of an old codger boat is light to launch and recover, can't capsize or easy to right.

  11. #431
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I am not disagreeing with you that Trimarans are a good solution with minimal moving about, but as people age it is very important the keep mobile and move as much of their muscle groups as they can. Far better to move about on the water than in a 'keep active class' for senior citizens. For me the prime requirements of an old codger boat is light to launch and recover, can't capsize or easy to right.
    I agree. It is a bit like the debate around sitting and standing desks - there is no single 'correct' position, the most ergonomic position is the next one so an ability to move freely is important.

  12. #432
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I am not disagreeing with you that Trimarans are a good solution with minimal moving about, but as people age it is very important the keep mobile and move as much of their muscle groups as they can. Far better to move about on the water than in a 'keep active class' for senior citizens. For me the prime requirements of an old codger boat is light to launch and recover, can't capsize or easy to right.
    I have to agree on that too. A trimaran like Tryst by Richard Woods might fit the bill: Light to launch and recover and hard to capsize. And look at the boat with the Balanced Lugsail. But the boat seems not very good for a 'work-out'. Perhaps it is to hard to expect that one boat fullfils all the requirements. I agree that doing that ( the workout) on the water is far better than suffering in a 'keep active class'. But here we also have a St. Ayels Skiff for that and I find that rowing together is a great workout and much better for morale. The Skiff is even with an incomplete crew easy to launch and we will also fit a simple Dipping Lugsail for downwind sailing. Actually the hardest part with the Skiff is the organization, but we are close to a solution. Frank

  13. #433
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    It appears to me that Meade Gougeon (RIP) found that a single position worked for him.
    Was this what allowed him to keep sailing at an impressive level right up to the end?

    Theory is fine, but usually doesn't cover all the bases.


  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I agree. It is a bit like the debate around sitting and standing desks - there is no single 'correct' position, the most ergonomic position is the next one so an ability to move freely is important.


    I remember the Ergonomics lecture where I first heard this because it sounds so counter intuitive


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  15. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    It appears to me that Meade Gougeon (RIP) found that a single position worked for him.
    Was this what allowed him to keep sailing at an impressive level right up to the end?

    Theory is fine, but usually doesn't cover all the bases.


    We are in a delicate area but I would imagine Meade was was quite active anyway. His fantastic canoe tri was used for long distance races where fatigue would become a major issue. For a couple of hours sailing a boat that requires movement will have a more positive effect on health on one that is more sedentary.



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  16. #436
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    It appears to me that Meade Gougeon (RIP) found that a single position worked for him.
    Was this what allowed him to keep sailing at an impressive level right up to the end?...
    --- Gougeon used that chair for sleeping in (napping). He trained to take a couple of naps at anchor or sea-anchor, for about 40 minutes, in the reclined mode. The sheepskin is an effective covering to reduce hot spots (rub spots), though I wonder how much water it absorbed. There is an bit article in Sailing World where his sleep and nap regimen is explained -- at home he would sleep 5 hours per night, and nap twice a day in a recliner (at home and office); the canoe chair mimicked the recliner, so living at home was training for an Everglades Challenge. He felt it was crazy to go too long without some sleep, despite what the legendary sleepless racers in that event sometimes did.

    He had once mentioned he was going to do a write-up about this canoe, but we will now wait forever. -- Wade

  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- Gougeon used that chair for sleeping in (napping). He trained to take a couple of naps at anchor or sea-anchor, for about 40 minutes, in the reclined mode. The sheepskin is an effective covering to reduce hot spots (rub spots), though I wonder how much water it absorbed. There is an bit article in Sailing World where his sleep and nap regimen is explained -- at home he would sleep 5 hours per night, and nap twice a day in a recliner (at home and office); the canoe chair mimicked the recliner, so living at home was training for an Everglades Challenge. He felt it was crazy to go too long without some sleep, despite what the legendary sleepless racers in that event sometimes did.

    He had once mentioned he was going to do a write-up about this canoe, but we will now wait forever. -- Wade

    Interesting stuff Wade, the sheepskin will contain natural lanolin so should be resistant to absorbing water. We used one to line my daughters buggy, the are supposed to regulate the baby's temperature.


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  18. #438
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    I sure wish he had written up his history and design of the boat.
    This is the boat I would like to build next. But, no plans, not much description.
    There is a boat club in Michigan who is making fiberglass replicas for a training project. Tried to get in contact but they didn't answer.

    Wade, are you suggesting he didn't sail while setting in the chair?

  19. #439
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    ... Wade, are you suggesting he didn't sail while setting in the chair?
    --- Not at all -- he sailed as the photo above shows him. I have seen many photos of him sailing, and they all show him at that same angle. But apparently the chair reclined to perfectly mimic his preferred napping angle on his at-home reclining chairs. In the 2017 Everglades Challenge, I believe he once took the chair out on the beach to sleep on it there, as well. Sadly he lost that chair in rough weather, perhaps a knock-down (?), and I am surprised that it was not solidly secured to the hull.... questions, questions.... oh Mr. Gougeon, why didn't you do that write-up?! -- Wade

    PS -- I read somewhere that a guy named Skip Izon built this boat as well as Woodwind, but I couldn't track down much more useful detail than that.
    Last edited by wtarzia; 09-13-2017 at 01:35 PM.

  20. #440
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    A trimaran design can obviously be sailed two ways and so adapt as the sailor becomes less mobile.
    > Sit on side benches with a bigger rig
    > Have a removable chair for sitting in and a smaller rig



    This little Tri has come on my radar
    https://youtu.be/kJJErnd2RGU
    https://youtu.be/tONMU7XU6UY




    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa
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  21. #441
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    Default Re: Designs for old codgers

    The seat pictured above on #440 is one of my early prototypes.

    My prototype was an adaption of the seat type that Hugh Horton developed for his sailing canoe and the sailing canoes of the Gougeons (the "Serendipity" sailing canoe series). These seats really blew me away.
    An essay from Hugh Horton on seats with lots of pictures is here: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/hugh/h_essay9_en.htm

    Later developments were:
    - Meade's high seat back, used for short naps
    - my DIY "HUGH HORTON Venice" seat model. Plans are free: https://www.bootsbaugarage.ch/produkte.htm#plans
    - my seat with back wings that pivot individually, as pictured in #423

    Yes, an old codger like me needs a comfortable seat. Comfort is one of the secrets why we elder gentlemen still are able to make long trips.

    Hope that helps. Axel

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