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Thread: Edwardian Race Cars

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Ease of building ....and then repair are important . An electric bike motor is a possibility if the pedals lose their charm.

    My oldest boy, Peter, dubbed Quadzilla, is the electronics and electrics guy. I am the mechanical guy.
    Any electrifying of the car will be his milieu.
    I have worked with those integrated drives and hub integrated motors, but I'm a simple guy. I'd rather just pedal.

    I was won over by the original plan's inclusion of a flywheel, to keep momentum going. And, we do have miles and miles of bike path it could be ridden on.

    This idea, though, has now blossomed into me actually wanting a car, of all things. I'm leaning strongly toward a cycle car type. I'm sick enough to really enjoy the blat of a parallel twin, and we have some windy two lane roads and dirt fields that probably could use some mild terrorizing...

    Peace,
    Robert
    Last edited by amish rob; 11-06-2016 at 09:54 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Homemade...
    They are "constant mesh" transmissions, the trick is coming up with workable "clutches" or "dogs"
    (Not a "clutch" in terms you may be familiar with)




    Bingo! That is awesome. I dig how the dogs work. Very cool. They are just bang, bang, then, I take it? It seems the chaps shifting just bang levers.
    What's this from, may I ask?
    Thanks, man. Really nice stuff.

    Peace,
    Robert

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    This build could be as interesting as any boat. Cycle, motorcycle and car forums might be useful for you as well.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    That chain box is beyond my understanding , I'd chose a bike derailleur and a 3 ring primary sprocket.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Zundapp

    This Zundapp is the same as any constant mesh transmission, common in motorcycles, except with chain-drive the shafts all run in the same direction.you can see the dogs or clutches next to each chain on the driven shaft. Note the position of neutral n your transmissions. If the shift pattern is (for example) 1- N-2-3-4 this would indicate constant mesh. Unlike a standard car or truck were you must pass through neutral for every gear change.

    These are all just images gleaned from an internet image search.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Oh, gosh, no gears on the bike car. Just one speed. Maybe 6-8 mph, a nice pedestrian speed.

    The bike car question, though, led me to all these fantastic old cars I had NO idea about. I never knew there was such a thing as a chain tranny before this thread, and I was watching these guys shift some of these chain drive, chain tranny cars, and it just boggles my mind.

    For the record, I am a highly skilled bicycle mechanic. I started working on bikes before college, during college, and for giggle periodically after. I still do some work, but only for important racers or fancy toys.
    I drive a bike as my daily driver, and owned one car before I got married in my late 20s. I have had some motorcycles, but those aren't cars, then, are they? We got bikes and bike parts all about, so the pedal car thing is no drama. And I've gotten PLENTY of ideas of what it should look like.
    You guys rock.

    As to the box. I think the power comes in on one of the bare cogwheels, and goes out on the other. The two speeds are selected by engaging the dog clutches, which can only engage one gear at a time. Everything is spinning all the time.
    I think. That thing is AWESOME!

    I will sketch up the proposed drive system for the bike car tomorrow and post it. I'm still deciding on the body, but I am thinking to run twin chainguards, because I saw them on one old race car.

    All this is to come, of course. Theses are the first steps in preparing to get ready to build it. But, this is what I do. I make stuff.

    Thanks again, all of you.

    Peace,
    Robert

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    The better models have an interlock that prevents you from engaging more than one gearset!

    Clever that, otherwise it is full stop!

    (And I still have a bike with sew-ups...)

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    "For the record, I am a highly skilled bicycle mechanic. "

    Would a recumbent with suitably augmented gearing arrangements provide the motive power and basis for a chassis?


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Perfect for a Morgan!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    "For the record, I am a highly skilled bicycle mechanic. "

    Would a recumbent with suitably augmented gearing arrangements provide the motive power and basis for a chassis?

    Funny. One thing I was looking into was using a CatTrikes front spindles. My buddy has one, with a modded Bionix electric drive hub. It will do around 25-30 mph without pedal assist!
    By the by, the trike style recumbents are among the most exhilarating and terrifying cycles I've ridden.

    My original plan also included adapting the rear end from a three wheel bike, but I'm not sure there, either, now.

    Yeah, I have been thinking about lots of stuff, but I think it will actually be simplest to just fab everything. Today is feet up recovery day, so I plan to get drawing.

    By the by, my wife is a lifelong Volkswagen fan, and has intimated she would be more supportive of a cyclecar type project if it had a VW motor instead of a motorcycle motor. Hmmm...

    Thanks again, all youse guys.

    Peace,
    Robert

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtism View Post

    (And an aside: Yesterday I shaved the beard I've had for almost 3 years and my first though was, 'weird'.)
    did you shave it off so as to not be associated with open carry ar toting spec ops wannabes with small penises?
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 11-07-2016 at 10:29 AM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    1924 Sima-Violet Cyclecar with flat twin engine


    B
    ody looks easily fabricated, partly in ply I reckon. Small MC engine would do.
    I don't think I mentioned how cool this thing is.

    And, Curtism, about the beard. Yes. That line is actually from years ago when I really did shave my beard. Nobody thought it was a good idea. I actually had a tan line from my beard!
    Except for year long Ironman campaign a few years back where I rocked only an awesome 80s mustache (it didn't help), I've been chinstrapped for years, and will remain so, I'm guessing, until I check out.

    Peace,
    Robert

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    You're going to need to use napkins now, because soup is going to get on your chin and clothes. You won't have to hold the bowl so close, though.

    Peace,
    Robert

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by Curtism View Post
    You left out the word 'not', smartarse.
    oops
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars


    Sloppy ugly overview. Three chains is a lot!

    The drive bits. All very sketchy, but the basic idea. I'm undecided about chain or belt intermediate drive, which is why it says gear/pulley.The flywheel wants to be about 18" x 2", which should give some real kinetic energy...

    Sort of the idea. All vague, and speculative, and subject to change, but this is the basic idea.

    Peace,
    Robert

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Too streamlined I reckon, and maybe not quite right at the front, but as a first sketch terrific.
    Still not absolutely sure about the flywheel idea.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Agreed. I'm pretty sure I get where they are going with the flywheel idea, but I'm not sure sure.

    There is no doubt, however, that a motorized version is to follow. The only real question is, will it be cyclecart tame, or Brutus insane? I'm thinking a hundred horse VW motor might could be fun in a cyclecar type.

    I really dig the external chain drive, thing, but man I dig those GN cars, too. Like, a lot. What fun, eh?

    Peace,
    Robert

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Have a look here Robert http://www.pembleton.co.uk/
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars


    Take two. This is more like it. A very rudimentary plan view above.
    Now, I'll set this aside for a few days.


    Peace,
    Robert

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    If you have a motorcycle wreckers yard nearby, Honda 50 wheels would be to scale too.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Flywheels take horsepower...
    just sayin'

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    and save it up for later ......
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Agreed. The flywheel will be a bit of a chore to get spinning, but will then be that much help. Theoretically.

    Peace,
    Robert

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    The chains and the actual drive could be two separate mechanisms in a motorised version. The chains are a safety worry but without an actual load much less so. I know it's not so purist but remember the originals of these light vehicles struggled to get to a design speed of 45-50 mph.
    Thoughts on suspension Rob? Extended chassis rails forward allowed for leaf springs, but light coils would likely do for a pedal version. This is a Morgan sliding pillar suspension.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliding_pillar_suspension
    Last edited by skuthorp; 11-08-2016 at 01:17 AM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Agreed. The flywheel will be a bit of a chore to get spinning, but will then be that much help. Theoretically.

    Peace,
    Robert
    The theoretical part will come in when you start up the first incline, and you will begin to wish you could disengage that flywheel and leave it at the bottom.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    I'm really not sure any of these things were ever built. The diagram shows the bicycle hub with the drive gear on the wrong side, for one thing.
    Here's where I am, though. The bike hub drives the flywheel, and both are free to spin if not being driven. The flywheel is then connected to the drive axle, but not directly. I think I'm going to use a belt (or two) and an idler clutch type setup.
    Then, I can have a side mounted lever that tensions the belt to give drive. Another side mounted lever will work the axle mounted brake, too. You gotta fake it right!

    That way, I think, I can get some good revs into the flywheel while sitting still, then engage the "clutch" and begin pedaling at the same time... That said, I intend to tackle no inclines, but if I do, well, I still ride a 39x25, and I AM an Bugno/Indurain/Ullrich type masher. Kidding. This is purely for flat road giggles, and to give the squirrelly little guy something to cruise.

    And, no suspension on the pedal guy. There will most certainly be a motorized version to follow, probably with one of those honda motors, and that will have some front boing. I will likely use some old wagon seat springs for that, and just do the sprung solid axle gig. THAT one will for sure have external chain drives.

    I really think I'd like to have a full sized cyclecar, now. The video of that JAP powered GN driving around with the Moth powered GN is just too much. I never knew anything much about these cars, this era of vehicle, except for some surface stuff.

    Thanks to all of you, I have learned of a whole new world. There are quite a few knowledgeable, generous people on here, and I appreciate you all indulging me, and offering your input. It is very valuable.

    Peace,
    Robert

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars


    Oh. THIS is the car I mean to emulate with the pedal powered flymobile. It has a belt final drive and everything!

    Peace,
    Robert

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Okay. Here is my revised drive system idea.

    The pedal cranks are connected to a bicycle wheel hub, onto which is fastened another, fixed gear, which drives the flywheel. The flywheel is then connected to the rear axle by a v belt, with an idler wheel type clutch.

    But.

    There are two sets of pulleys and belts, giving two final drive ratios. The idler clutch can alternately loosen or tighten the two gears. Or two levers, maybe. I ain't all that clever. Two speeds!

    The flywheel is to be a wooden wheel surrounded by a "20 inch" bicycle rim (actually about 18" diameter), The rim itself will drive the belt, and the weight of the wheel can be adjusted by adding weights to the wheel with screws/bolts.

    All this has been happening in my head. I'm obsessed.

    Oldest son, Quadzilla (gosh, y'all, he is a GIANT of a young man), had the bright idea of salvaging an adult mobility scooter for the electric drive to make a battery powered cyclecart type. He do be smart.

    Me and youngest son are all about the pedal bike. We are hopeless romantics.

    Peace,
    Robert

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Quote Originally Posted by dbrown View Post
    http://www.cyclekartclub.com/
    You should explore in here, if you haven't already.
    Oh, yes, we have. Thanks.

    My wife and the older kids really, really want a cyclecart now. I have, so far, located one wheel, and an engine for that future project.

    I have to solve this pedal problem first, though. And, I really want to drive it down the bike trail. We have one of those rail/trail conversions nearby, see.

    And, I should, say, I'm apt to skip the cart, and go right to the car. I think a salvaged motorcycle might be a good place to start a special...

    Peace,
    Robert

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Title is easy, if you start with a salvaged vehicle. Well, not easy, but doable. My cousin and the guy down the street build hot rods all the time. Cousin gave me the rundown.

    The cycle car will for sure be a quantum leap. But, shoot, I got a lot of dirt and two lane country roads to tool down, more than a few orchards and groves I could go sliding around the fringes of...

    I for sure know where I can get some nice ash for frame rails...

    Peace,
    Robert

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    V-belts rely on friction, friction takes hp...
    Belts can work with a motor that can afford to waste a bit of power but for humans (maybe 1/16 hp?) stay with chains, a most efficient drive system.

    (I love the entire concept, but the Flywheels (and then Belts) will be the first to go, either by math or by empirical trials. Humans have other systems (chemical) built in for storing energy. You could write an interesting and perhaps profitable treatise on the results, Flywheels Through History. Having just returned from a whirlwind tour of the Smithsonian and looking at the evolution of engines, from the "atmospheric" engines used in British mines to the great gangs of single cylinder steam engines of the New York Subway system. (Each engine burned 100 tons of coal per day, at full go I think there were 60 engines running). The flywheel can indeed be recognized as viable in utilizing a slow brute force to do fine and rapid work involving switching directions (like a sewing machine) but is slowly becoming just a another part of history, with only enough energy stored to get to the next work stroke)

    Edit; The title may be easier if you register this as a "motorcycle", there is a weight limit, which is in your favor and a lot of little details come off the list that way. Even though you can get a "title" the legality of driving it past a cop is another completely different problem!
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 11-09-2016 at 10:31 AM.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Empirical trials for sure. And a mockup before the real deal, as it were. The flywheel may end up getting replaced by an internally geared hub. There are a few models on the market that provide an immense gear range.

    The belts are surely a gamble. It's all just living in my head while I sand and fair my boat. How could I, should I wish, easily "clutch" a drive chain. The reason for the belt was the slack/taut "clutch" deal. I am open to any input.

    If I build it a million times in my head and on paper, it might actually work when I really get around to it.

    The motorcycle title is what we all agreed would be easiest, for a real road car. On old Harley (my neighbor is an old Harley nut) or Triumph or Beezer will most likely be the donor vehicle. Maybe an older Japanese twin, but I'd really rather have a separate engine and trans on the donor motor. So that, oh, mercy, somehow, it can have one of those chain trannies. That GN/Frazier Nash type car just really has me under its spell. Oy.

    And, CY, I always welcome and listen to your input. I value it, even if I have to learn the stove is hot myself.
    Peace,
    Robert

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    There are diminutive planatary gearboxes available for go Karts to provide reverse. Perhaps some modification and a "one way bearing" would give you a clutch or at least reverse. This little unit showed some promise for a project I was working on a couple of years ago, but the prospects of modifying, heat treating a new shaft seemed problematic for a one off. Find some exploded views of it.
    Ebay

    Take a look at this...

    https://thegokart.wordpress.com

    I have been down this road at least a few times in my head. And a few times with the gross physical aspects of it. You know, building things!

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    https://books.google.com.au/books?id...motion&f=false

    Scroll down to Differential Geared Bike

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Edwardian Race Cars

    Saw the little blue cart. Cool. I'm trying to make things difficult, though, if only to have solved a problem that didn't need it. I think a simple system like his is the best way, though. You could ever throw a jackshaft in there with some gears on it.
    The diff geared bike reminds me of a thing called a stride bike, or some such. Basically, the motion of an elliptical machine, which is supposed to emulate cross country skiing, I think, is translated into bicycle motion.
    We debated using two big levers, paired to the drive wheel by sprung chains, and still might. I used a similar system on an old foot powered sharpener I had. The chain goes from the lever, over the gear, and to a spring. Pushing lever turns gear, and taughtens spring, which pulls lever back into position against the freewheel motion of the gear.

    But. I really want to solve the puzzle of this design I found in an old book.

    Thanks again, too guys. Please don't take anything I say as a dismissal of your ideas or input. I value everything, because it may be a totally new way of thinking to me, and it may change the whole game.

    Peace,
    Robert

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