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Thread: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

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    Default The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    This is a continuation from this thread. Basically a half size test platform for a one-off, that may also,in this size, make a single handed camping boat.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-Box-Keel-Boat

    Decided that the quickest method was not the cheapest, and that anything that floats with over 700lbs in it, can not be built too lightly either, so this is a compromise on time and material costs.

    First job was getting out 2 layers of keel from edge glued boards, 2 on the base and 3 on the interior.





    Used the plywood pattern for the base, and cut the top layer a bit smaller to give the plywood skin something to land on. Then glued up both together and added frame floors.


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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Frames constructed and allowed inside to ease drying time



    And set up temporary in the heated part of the shop.




    I need to set up again next door as it will not fit through the doorway. I woke up to snow this morning, so building in the unheated part might take some time. I have ripped down some timber for chines ,sheer and battens for plank laps, which will be adjusted till agreeable, before any ply gets cut.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Set up next door, frames erected and fastened.


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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Dude. Awesome. I thought you were just funning around, playing with a boat idea. Nope. You're building a boat.
    This is going to be fun to watch. Thanks.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    I am liking this get at it approach. More please.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Dude. Awesome. I thought you were just funning around, playing with a boat idea. Nope. You're building a boat.
    This is going to be fun to watch. Thanks.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Robert. i guess anything that is not a fishing, passenger or freight boat is for fun, that being the case, i am certainly funning about. It will be a boat, but it is based on an idea.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by wsgilliam View Post
    I am liking this get at it approach. More please.
    You want more?



    Box stringer in place. Will laminate more layers in-situ.



    Chine and sheer lined off. Yes it has a reverse sheer. I made adjustments to my original off-sets to the transom, so pleased to see the batten has flowed out to the new chine corner position with no issues. It has been snowing all day, so polyurethane glue is the only thing that works, and moisture curing, as long as it stays above freezing.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Robert. i guess anything that is not a fishing, passenger or freight boat is for fun, that being the case, i am certainly funning about. It will be a boat, but it is based on an idea.
    Sorry. To clarify, I had no idea you were planning a boat to build, I thought you were just designing a boat, or testing principles.

    I'm very excited this is to watch this unfold the rest of the way.

    I have enjoyed it all so far. I thought the model to be nice looking, so look forward to seeing a larger version.

    Thanks, again.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Sorry. To clarify, I had no idea you were planning a boat to build, I thought you were just designing a boat, or testing principles.

    I'm very excited this is to watch this unfold the rest of the way.

    I have enjoyed it all so far. I thought the model to be nice looking, so look forward to seeing a larger version.

    Thanks, again.

    Peace,
    Robert
    No worries Robert.Its a sort of 'yes' to all of those. This is really all about finding hard numbers for the 26. If the "13" can run at a SL of 1.8 (the Atkin orginal supposedly could), then that will be very promising, i have my doubts though, so better to find out this way and either put concept to rest or into use. Thanks for the comments.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Yes, I will enjoy seeing this built. Lots to learn. Thanks for sharing.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Box stringers laminated up.



    Stem chocking and frames cut for chine.



    I am attempting to keep the entry sharp below the chine, and then flair out up to the deck. Its a visual thing i want to see how it works with a 3 plank topside.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat





    Not much progress due to minus tempertures. Managed to fit box sides. Hope to fit stringers and bottom panels next week when its supposed to warm up a little.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    In go the chines, in 2 pieces, less stress on everything that way....






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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Chines in...



    Will fit the sheer stringers next to lock everything solid, nailing the plywood on with gripfast nails.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Sheer stringer notches cut into frames and dry fitted to rest in shape overnight, too cold for any glue.



    For ease and speed, the first 4ft were cut on the table saw to aid an easy fit, given the sheer bends in 2 directions. Hope to get it glued in tomorrow, weather permitting.


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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    That's looking nice...

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Thanks Robert. Sheer stringers in place. Planking ribbands being set up.



    What looked good on paper, not surprisingly, was not quite right in 3D, so some adjustments to be made and noted. For practical purposes in testing, the topsides could be done with a single sheet, but as this is also to bring the look of the "26" into visual reality, then will be going with 3 lapstrake planks.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat



    Not the final line off.....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    [QUOTE=skaraborgcraft;5068070]

    Not the final line off..... working between two opposing curves has issues.....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Whoa. 18 and 19 really show off the fantastic shape. There's a lot going on around the second frame!

    I think the hull will look pretty sharp with those plank lines. Well, not THOSE, maybe, but with the laps, I mean. I think the laps will accentuate that complicated shape well.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Thanks again Robert. I bit the bullet and put the ribbands in. There is still some lee-way when it comes to the laps. I do not have time to sit and stare for a week, not with a warm few days forecast.






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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    I had a moment earlier on, i could finish the ply bottom, then thought about covering the topsides with some ballistic nylon, its do-able, but i will continue with the ply planking.
    Chine , frame 1 and stem to bevel, then planking.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Wait, wait, wait. Fabric topsides? You're talking to a guy who built a paper kayak, man. Fabric with battens peeking through might look cool, too.
    Am I the little angel on your shoulder, or the little devil?

    Either way, cool project. I hope it works well enough for you to build the "real" one, too!

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    .....and lead me not into temptation.....someone said. I think i might get as far as weighing it once the bottom is planked. I would say its a bit too cumbersome to car top, so the weight saving might not be that important on a boat that should be capable of carrying a fair load. It should be easily managable on a trolley without any fixed ballast in place. Fabric might not make for such a warm interior when its really cold, and i do not know how it stands up to ice.....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Oh, for ice you want greased leather. Heh heh. Brendan joke...

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    A little bit of sail configuration going on. I have a Mirror rig 70sq ft, and the balanced lug rig from the family skiff 96sq ft.





    Might have an issue with the lug mast being through the fore deck, but will set up a couple of alternative mast foots. I already have a mizzen flying a mirror jib 20sq ft, but i think the gunter rig would need pushing forward and the jib on a short sprit, but aiming for an all inboard rig; at least on the bow end.
    Will use the ready made family skiff daggerboard that was made to fit the offset housing i built on the skiff.



    I know this off set board works well on both tacks. I will build a housing on the opposite side with a 12 degree angle, just to see if there is a recordable difference, using the same board in both housings will discount any potential differences between 2 boards. I can get on with these projects inside when it gets cold again.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Subscribing

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Often the case some of the best ideas conceived whilst consuming a pot of tea first thing in the morning....or in my case, a flicker of a brainwave that might be a good compromise. I was thinking about the need to build to daggerboard boxes and hence two holes in the bottom of the boat, and after thinking about how well the Family skiff sails with the single offset board, i 'think' i have concluded that using one board, in one box, where the board can be either vertical or off-set, will give me an insight into wether the angled board is a better performer. Im thinking something like this, a section looking through the box from aft.



    I can make a wedge, or even just a couple of clamps to hold it in either position. Doing it this way will take away any discrepancy between rig, foil and surface conditions between 2 different tacks, and i think any differences between pointing might be easier to note if on the same tack, if pausing only to re-set the boards angle. Do i need more tea?

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Well, a swinging keel/daggerboard no less, albeit one way.
    A hole and pin setup could allow quick position changes if the daggerboard is thick enough to take the load on the pin.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Often the case some of the best ideas conceived whilst consuming a pot of tea first thing in the morning....or in my case, a flicker of a brainwave that might be a good compromise...

    Do i need more tea?
    is another CUPPA ever a bad thought?

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Funny you should mention that Skuthorp, i had a thought along those lines. The board is too thin to take a shaft, but i had thought of possibly U bolting a shaft on one side, shown below in red.



    Its doa-able, but its a complication that is really not needed just to find a measurable difference.....i got as far as thinking about screw jacks and hydraulic rams.....i blame that on the fresh coffee. This is only going forward due to keeping time and material costs as low as possible, or it would not be happening at all.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by swoody126 View Post
    is another CUPPA ever a bad thought?

    sw

    Not round these parts! Time spent thinking over a cup of tea, is seldom time wasted......

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    I love it!

    The board could be held to one side or the other of the case by a line. A small cleat on both outer faces of the case can have a line tied on. The line then loops around the board, and back to the same cleat to be cleated.

    One inboard and one outboard, as it were, would be cheap, quick and strong enough for the test, I think.

    I finally figured out the spindles and brake for my bicycle car project germinating in my head yesterday. Why? Coffee!

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Thinking about it, i could split a broom handle down and screw it both sides of the board, but i am reluctant to go making holes in it. So, this might be a better solution to leaving the board exactly as it is....



    Using a taper-wedge blocking each end of the case. The only drawback is having to remove the board to slot it in the other side of the blocking, but i think i prefer that to adding anything to it, or having to make good any damage through its glass skin.
    I managed to get one chine beveled off for plywood before my elbow quit.....progress anyway.

    I think i might have to try the split broom handle, if the ends are carried an inch clear of the board each end so that they can rest in a half bearing, i can put fastening through each end and maybe clamp the board between, if the timber is stiff enough......could always round off the bottom of a 3x1 to gain clamping/screwing area, and still have an unmolested board. Your line idea might work there Robert, but i expect the hull side is not going to have any space for cleats or fingers, but will address that issue if it comes to it.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Ah, yes. For some reason I imagined the case being freestanding, not built into the side. Oops.

    More coffee. It'll figure itself out.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Bottom planking going on....





    No end of fun with a small boat and easily managed bits of ply.


    Although i have no intention of double planking the topsides, interesting to see it would not be an issue, especially on the larger "26", should that might be a personal option over clinker planks. I would more likely go with a single batten in the topsides and just sheet planking, i do not see an issue with 12mm ply, except right at the bow. Certainly easy with small bits, but lots more glue and fairing.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Anybody used yellow pine plywood? Im wondering on how people have finished the face, looks like it might be liable to check.
    Yet to discuss finishing treatment.....

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Lattice pattern for forward bottom panel.





    The transition between the box and the forward sheet is not that severe, i will fasten the sheet along the chine and base and let it 'belly' where it wants to, and likely shim/bog under the forward frame where needed. I expect to clamp both sheets in place overnight and hope not to need boiling water......gets pretty hard at the bow.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Well, there always is that slight curve to the panels...

    Very interested to see the first plank on.

    I've never used pine ply, just fir. Check, check, check.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    I was looking at that pine ply too. What sort of money does a sheet cost? Is it classified as exterior, or..? Did you boil a bit? Or, is the semi-disposable bit that you do not expect it to last?

    Watercraft's editor is building a Chebacca in birch ply. Good glue, but I expect it needs sheathing, as not very durable. Half decent 10mm exterior cost around 100euro here and pukka marine, more like 200 last time I looked, though that was for 10'x5".

    Enjoying your thread. After all the musing, nice to see wood cut.
    A2

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    BCX-YP is TUFF STUFF

    i have used it for the bottoms of several creek boats that get ruff use and as long as i filled any edge voids and kept up with paint scratches it has dunn me proud...

    1/4" and 3/8" are under $20/4x8 sheet

    if planning to sheathe it w/ glass cloth put the bad side outside, fill the divots w/ thickened pox & glass it

    on my most recent build i didn't bother glassing the bottom just filled the divots & coated the entire bottom w/ slightly thickened pox

    less than a year old now so only time will tell

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    I was looking at that pine ply too. What sort of money does a sheet cost? Is it classified as exterior, or..? Did you boil a bit? Or, is the semi-disposable bit that you do not expect it to last?


    A2
    Its about 25 quid a sheet, 7mm 5 ply. I had bought some for some small sliding panel doors, and was impressed with the quality of faces, equal veneers and not a single void in any sheet i have cut. Not sure about the glue, i have had some bits going through some wet dry cycles for the past month and its still stuck together. The 'disposable' bit comes from its expected short life as a test bed....after some data has been collected it will have served its purpose. If it kind of/sort off performs ok with a single crew, it might have a life of a couple of seasons.....if i dont overload it and sink it first.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by swoody126 View Post
    BCX-YP is TUFF STUFF

    i have used it for the bottoms of several creek boats that get ruff use and as long as i filled any edge voids and kept up with paint scratches it has dunn me proud...

    1/4" and 3/8" are under $20/4x8 sheet

    if planning to sheathe it w/ glass cloth put the bad side outside, fill the divots w/ thickened pox & glass it

    on my most recent build i didn't bother glassing the bottom just filled the divots & coated the entire bottom w/ slightly thickened pox

    less than a year old now so only time will tell

    sw
    thanks Swoody. Both faces are really good on all the sheets i have bought, some fancy dutchman on a few panels, but no filler.....im not sure why the birch was almost 3 times the price. Likely to have the bottom taped and sheathed with a light cloth, probably just paint on the topsides.
    Actually managed to pull those sheets in at the bow without wetting and no nasty sounds....hope to find them still in one bit in the morning.




    Thanks Sw

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Well, there always is that slight curve to the panels...

    Very interested to see the first plank on.

    I've never used pine ply, just fir. Check, check, check.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Quite a belly up front, prefer to leave the wood in the shape it wants to take rather than force it to the frames, more strength in a curve anyway....still looks good.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Bottom panels on....i quite like the way the panels have developed in shape, will need something behind the frames to fill the belly. might even stick a small stringer in there forward.



    I have to work out how long i want to cut the gains in, then get the lower plank on. I will then think about turning it over to glass before fitting the other planks.......depending on what the weather decides.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Ooh. I think that looks nice. I think you always have to shim out ply at the forward frames, don't you. Ply always take the curve it will take, and if you force it, it gets ugly.

    Very exciting!

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Well. i guess if you work out the conic projection on the lofting before you cut your frames you would not need to shim. In this case my lofting was a drawing 1 1/2in to the foot. Heres the gap, nothing to stress about.



    And while i was thinking about it, for ease of access, i will make up the dagger box housing, a few angles at play here. This is making a template for the forward dagger box face, which will also serve as a large gusset for the frame.



    I really wanted the board to exit close to the chine as possible, but i might have to re-think that as i might not get the board free with the side decking, at least vertically, at 12 degree its not an issue.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    Cold weather holding me up. Only small stuff i can bring in the house to set up. Have the daggerboard housing components made up and dry fitted.



    The oak triangle will be the face on both ends of the housing for the board to run on. The bolted oak guide will hold the board in the vertical or angle position.



    Dry fit before cutting hole in bottom.



    Hull side face of housing and why its a good idea to fit it now before planking!

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat

    There will be top and bottom bearers to fit also....



    The ply sides will run just short of the bottom, so a layer of bog can protect the end grain, just a dry fit so yet to be trimmed, same as below....



    It will all get dismantled and the inside faces of the plywood will get sheathed. I think i have an open tube of sikaflex lying around, so will probably assemble the whole shebang with that and screw it in place.

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    Default Re: The "13", a semi-disposable box keel boat



    Missing picture.....

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