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Thread: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    /\

    It is just me, or does it look as if the Ilur would be impossible to bail out in rough conditions? I see that Roger was in the act of going to a reef when he capsized, so it wasn't that strong and the seas would not have had a chance to build up. It also appears that he was not too far from a weather shore, which would also have kept the chop down.

    Also; is it just me, or is it rather scary to see that people may be selling a design when they don't know whether it can self-rescue?
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-11-2016 at 04:53 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    That is not the right conclusion about Ilur at all.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    But why not? He's got about 40cm of freeboard when upright, and less when the boat rolls due to free-surface effect. If you get waves higher than about 40cm it's going to be taking water aboard. That is very likely in many places in the conditions in which one may capsize.

    I admit I'm out of practise when it comes to bailing boats out, since I haven't sailed any dinghy that you had to bail since I was a kid. Maybe I'm also expecting too much from a cruising dinghy, and not expecting enough expertise from the crew.

    I must admit I'm not very convinced by capsize demonstrations in flat water and light winds. Almost anything is easy in those conditions. As an analogy, in the conditions of those videos absolute beginners can sail a windsurfer or Laser and sailors from the back half of a club fleet could sail a skiff or International Canoe, but they won't be able to do so in the conditions of wind and wave that would capsize a cruising dinghy. Arguably, the same dramatic increase in difficulty as conditions deteriorate will apply to recovery (and does, IME).

    Of course, this is applying the usual standard of Murphy's law, cascading problems, tiredness, fear and the usual things that accompany a potentially dangerous situation that you don't practise for.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-11-2016 at 06:07 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    The standard skerry is not self-rightable in anything but dead-flat water. Been there, done that. If you take the mast out, it can be done. I added more flotation to mine for a big sailing trip this past summer and crossed my fingers. It went fine. However, the skerry raid has more built-in sealed airspace, so maybe a different story..

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    That was amazing to see, in post 37, the Illur go straight turtle with all sails up! Wow. I really need to try that with my Coquina. I have never had her over. As for the topic of this thread, with its dory style bottom, the CLC looks like a good boat to singlehand in the Everglades race, though I am not suggesting it will keep up with the cats or the planing boats...
    Re-naming straits as necessary.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Dave, it didn't turtle until I stood on the mast and pulled her over--she lay very nicely at 90 degrees otherwise.



    Chris249, the beginning footage in the clip in post 37 was taken after a capsize and righting; the water level in the boat was at least a couple of inches below the top of the CB case, and the boat was stable enough for me to move about quite comfortably, without undue rolling. I was sitting on the rail with my feet hooked under a thwart and hiking out and she didn't capsize even with that much water in the hull. With the mizzen to hold her hove-to, I am confident that she would behave well enough to get her bailed.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Roger Barnes muses about his recent capsize


  8. #43
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Here, Roger's first reactions


  9. #44
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    ^ Mainsheet cleated off! I am starting to get problems with gripping a rope for extended periods, so usually put the tail of the mainsheet a turn around the tiller under my palm, where i can release it by letting go, but keep tension on it via the palm of my hand rather than tryring to do with fingers.
    I believe it was Richard Woods and Stan who demonstrrated the capsize and recovery of the michalak family skiff, and due to its generous fore and aft decking/bouyancy, there was no issues with getting underway without bailing. An important feature for me, it does change the style somewhat from an open boat, but Skerry Raid should have the same qualities if bulkheads are used at both ends of the cockpit.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    The Harken auto Ratchmatic blocks for the mainsheet take the load off as the load goes on. The optimum lower dinghy mainsheet block.

    http://www.harken.co.uk/productcategory.aspx?taxid=421

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Do people actually pay so much money for that stuff? Nice bit of gear, but....

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    /\

    It's not the centreboard slot I was musing about, John, but the freeboard at the gunwales. It probably depends where you sail. Where I am, in conditions that are windy enough to capsize while cruising many of the waves are significantly higher than the freeboard that was showing in the vid; we're sticking the noses of dinghies with 20" of freeboard into the waves deep enough to get a significant amount of water into the cockpit, and that's when the bow of a 68kg hull can rise to the waves.

    I'm certainly not claiming that the boat is dangerous, defective or anything else, merely that vids of what can be done in flat water and light winds does not seem to some of us to be proof of what can be done in 35 knots and 3' of short chop.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-12-2016 at 06:33 AM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Do people actually pay so much money for that stuff? Nice bit of gear, but....
    I'm not one to splurge usually, but I've got lots of those blocks (ie three complete mainsheet setups, plus kite stuff, albiet mainly second-hand) plus similar kit from other manufacturers. It makes an enormous difference on boats like the big cats (Formula 18 and 16 etc) and a significant difference on the yacht. Given the enormous importance of mainsheet control on a dinghy, it's another area where good roller-bearing kit blocks and cleats really do make a difference IMHO despite the much lower loads. The Fredricksen roller bearing mainsheet block/jammer on the Tasar has been with me 20 years, so it's been pretty worthwhile.
    Last edited by Chris249; 10-12-2016 at 06:32 AM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    cruising is often about minimising effort. On a long board the niggling little snatch of the mainsheet with every wave, even from a small dinghy, proved so annoying that I replaced all the dinky blocks in the system with deadeyes ..... sure it was harder to drag the sheet on, but I seldom had to adjust it anyway - and the friction absorbed all those maddening little tugs on the sheet. Also the tension required to hold the sheet was reduced to the same level as that of an expensive complicated piece of high-tech kit
    Plus I thought all those rope-stropped oiled deadeyes looked pretty cool ....

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Do people actually pay so much money for that stuff? Nice bit of gear, but....
    They do. Dad's favourite block...and that was racing a 12ft Keyahaven Scow...

    Good blocks make a difference to sail control and make it easier pulling in. The ratchmatic, once tension goes on the sheet, click so they don't roll anymore (you could still let line out slowly without it revolving) so it takes strain off your hands. It's clever and effective when your not wanting to cleat off, like on a dinghy. They last 20-30 years with only minimal maintenance and you just take it with you when you swap boats, so you've always got one. They're well worth it, as all Harken blocks are. Honestly you'd never go back, the functionality (and durability) is so much better. There are copies, but Harken are no risk quality. The boat and sail will be much more controllable.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    cruising is often about minimising effort. On a long board the niggling little snatch of the mainsheet with every wave, even from a small dinghy, proved so annoying that I replaced all the dinky blocks in the system with deadeyes ..... sure it was harder to drag the sheet on, but I seldom had to adjust it anyway - and the friction absorbed all those maddening little tugs on the sheet. Also the tension required to hold the sheet was reduced to the same level as that of an expensive complicated piece of high-tech kit
    Plus I thought all those rope-stropped oiled deadeyes looked pretty cool ....
    A good ratchet block tacks away all those little snatches, without making it harder to pull the sheet in. There's also no tension with a good cam cleat that you can release in a fraction of a second.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Ed is right. Good blocks make a difference. Every time you use them them bring pleasure. With small dinghy application, you can even do it with moddest cost. The very small micro block are very affirdable, and used with 3mm dyneema contrrol lines works great.

    Here are the pics of how my Scow was rigged.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/278488...7606911697259/

    The blocks are called 16mm and are here http://www.harken.co.uk/productcategory.aspx?taxid=4101

    About 12 for the standard block https://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/product...en-16mm-blocks

    Brian

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Here are the pics of how my Scow was rigged.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/278488...7606911697259/
    Love the the stirrups for re entry

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    /\

    It's not the centreboard slot I was musing about, John, but the freeboard at the gunwales. It probably depends where you sail. Where I am, in conditions that are windy enough to capsize while cruising many of the waves are significantly higher than the freeboard that was showing in the vid; we're sticking the noses of dinghies with 20" of freeboard into the waves deep enough to get a significant amount of water into the cockpit, and that's when the bow of a 68kg hull can rise to the waves.

    I'm certainly not claiming that the boat is dangerous, defective or anything else, merely that vids of what can be done in flat water and light winds does not seem to some of us to be proof of what can be done in 35 knots and 3' of short chop.
    This.....

    This past summer I was all gung-ho to do an upriver trip in the Skerry, where the first 20-something miles of the trip would take place on the wide expanses of San Francisco Bay. A few weeks before I set out, I capsized the boat in the relatively flat conditions of Redwood City Harbor. I actually didn't go out to do that, but I was sure glad it happened. Wow, what an eye-opener. I could get the boat back up, and I could bail from outside the boat, but even the tiny little wind chop in the harbor was splashing over the side. There was no way whatsoever that I could get into the boat and not drive it under. It was extremely obvious that if this were to happen 5 miles from the nearest shore, I was in big trouble. The hull was nowhere even vaguely close to stable, 7/8ths full of water, with the mast up. The point was hammered home, HARD... what if this happens in 20 knots of breeze in a running chop built up over 4-5 miles of fetch? I mean, could very well be out in that. The answer is, I'm screwed and I could die.

    Later I read that others have successfully righted the stock Skerry after taking the mast out. Hmmmm.

    I added a mess of flotation to the boat...strapped in two syfrofoam blocks that fit under the thwart, alongside the daggerboard case and bought a *Big* Holt dinghy flotation bag, which got lashed aft, in front of the aft flotation chamber. To my discredit, I didn't re-test whether I could right the boat before taking the trip.

    Everything went fine and I had a grand time, but I wonder....

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    I don't know if anyone is still following this thread - I guess most interest folks will know that the CLC waterlust canoe has been out for a while, but the outrigger kits are out in the wild now, and starting to be completed. I know of at least one set in Texas, and I have one set in Norway. Initial experiences seem to be positive.




    Guy
    Last edited by guyhall; 06-11-2021 at 07:43 AM.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    [IMG]Hardanger by hallguy, on Flickr[/IMG]

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    That is beautiful!


    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    Thanks Kevin,

    That's very kind of you. I do agree!

    I think Dillon at CLC did a great job with the design and the kit.

    Guy

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Sailing canoe musings and the Skerry Raid

    What a lovely boat !

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