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Thread: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

  1. #1
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    Default Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    This design follows from my musings in the "Duck Punt Evolution" thread. (I should have added the word "Sailing" somewhere in the title).

    I use the terms Punt and Canoe very loosely, as physical resemblance will not be apparent. I am still not sure if either one will stick. Length is 4.4m (14.5ft) and beam 0.88m (34.6in), shoal draft, so ballpark canoe-ish.

    Apart from sailing, it will also be tested in rowing and paddling. Target hull weight is around 30kg, hopefully less.

    The Satyr description will become readily apparent as the hull takes shape, both in looks and underlying identity crisis.

    It is my first build of my own design, as well as being my first build from scratch.
    My inexperience in woodwork became apparent from the word go, and my first attempt at scarfing two panels of 4.2mm did not inspire confidence.
    Many questions to follow.







    Last edited by whiskeyfox; 10-03-2016 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    In photo one, how are the clamps holding your spline in place? It doesn't seem they can be acting like ducks in any way.
    Everything changes . Everything is connected . Pay attention

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by WHYankee View Post
    In photo one, how are the clamps holding your spline in place? It doesn't seem they can be acting like ducks in any way.
    They clamp against small brad nails tapped in halfway.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    the 1st and 2 sentences have captured my attention

    think i'll hang out in the rafters and see what develops...

    sw
    Last edited by swoody126; 10-04-2016 at 06:53 AM.
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    First few questions about the scarf -

    The bevel ratio is 1:12 but subsequent browsing shows that 1:10 or even 1:8 is much more common.
    Does the bevel ratio have any influence on the difficulty of producing a neat scarf?

    Would the shallower cutting angle such as that of the small Lie Nielson work better?

    I also played around with the settings on my block plane as well as cutting stroke directions (from normal to the bevel to nearly parallel, while holding the plane at 45deg to the ply edge.) The amount of "bite" seemed to vary with cutting direction, and was usually too much or nothing at all.

    For what it's worth, below are some info on the setup of my plane and the workpiece -

    The scarf is aligned with the face grain normal to the bevel, as is typical in most cases. The grain in the core laminate is therefore running across the bevel and tended to rip and crumble, giving a very uneven finish. The lower (feather?) edge of each scarf looked decent, until I started taking off too much.

    The plane is a Stanley, but I don't know what model.
    The sole of the plane seems to have a slight concave camber, mostly from increased wear along the centerline. The cutting edge of the iron is slightly convex. This might just be due to bad sharpening technique, I never checked if it was straight or cambered when new.

    The cutting edge protruded about 1mm (40 thou) from the lip of the chip breaker (which has a slight undercut), any more than this and it became difficult to reduce the coarseness (?? - iron protrusion below sole) to an acceptable minimum.

    The angle on the iron bevel itself is about 25deg, but it is also slightly convex so might be closer to 30deg at the cutting edge.

    The frog position is as it was when new. It seems rather far back, as the bottom of the iron practically touches the aft edge of the throat.

    I initially used a sacrificial piece of ply on top of the other two, also set back 50mm to acquire the same scarf bevel and provide better alignment (I hoped) for the scarf angle. I also tried using a second top piece of scrap ply, but set back 100mm which did not get bevelled in the process. The idea was to provide a precise edge for guiding the bevel angle as the scarf approached completion.

    Although the ply sheets were stapled to each other and to the bench top, the trestles were not rock steady and allowed everything to jolt when the iron bit a little deep and dug in.

    Any advice on scarfing appreciated, especially for thin ply.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I use a low angle block plane on thin stuff like 4-6mm, and usually join the planks after they have been cut, rather than trying to scarf 2 sheets together. 8-1 scarf is fine when using epoxy. A 1mm blade drop sounds like too much, and i would expect tear out , dig-ins and chipping, this can be made worse by not having your sheets fixed down properly. I have a Stanley similar looking to yours, and have found it not the greatest tool for end grain plywood. You do not have to go to the expense of a Lie Nielsen, but if you can afford it and intend to do more builds, it might be worth it to you. I have been using a cheap Record copy of a low angle block plane, and although the sole of the plane is a bit soft, it has done an amazing amount of work. Keep your blades sharp.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    wow, you are one adventurous dude

    goondonya

    as a long term boat builder life is too short for a scarfing joint

    I just butt joint the lengths and glue a plate of ply over the inside

    stronger and certainly quicker than any scarf joint

    D


    PS - when you have built the boat it would be great to see her under way

    free duck punt plans here for when you decide to go back to the motherlode

    Here are some pdfs of the plans courtesy of the Duck Punters of West Mersea.
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/k...PuntSheet1.pdf
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/k...PuntSheet2.pdf
    .
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/k...PuntSheet3.pdf
    .
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/k...PuntSheet4.pdf
    .
    https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/k...PuntSheet5.pdf

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    In hindsight, a butt joint should have been the preferred choice, even more so on the side panels since they are completely flat.

    Now that I do have a scarf, I might consider adding a tiny bit of vertical camber for stiffness. A perfectly slab-sided panel might show humps and hollows around bulkhead joints.

    It certainly helped planing parallel to the scarf bevel once I hit the center ply, the downside being the rip-out at the corners. I am sure this would not have been so bad if I used a steeper scarf angle.




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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Some more unusual panels and the first bit of dry-fit and stitching.

    I need a lot more twist in the panels (mostly parallel to the face grain), would a heatgun allow bending a tighter radius?




  10. #10
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Bear in mind that "low angle" planes are bevel up planes, so the actual angle is very similar to a bevel down plane such as the #4 smoothing plane.
    I do love my Lie Nielsen and Stanley low angle block planes, but not really for the "low" angle, but more for the one handed grip, the low weight and the small size. Also the small mouth opening helps with tear-out and while I could move the frog forwards on my smoothers, I find it useful with a plane already set up like that.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    Bear in mind that "low angle" planes are bevel up planes, so the actual angle is very similar to a bevel down plane such as the #4 smoothing plane.
    I do love my Lie Nielsen and Stanley low angle block planes, but not really for the "low" angle, but more for the one handed grip, the low weight and the small size. Also the small mouth opening helps with tear-out and while I could move the frog forwards on my smoothers, I find it useful with a plane already set up like that.

    /Mats
    That is such a brilliant bit of Woodenboat Forum prose - all is well with the world when there are blokes such as yourself who can write with such clarity and depth of knowledge. I should like to see some snaps of your workshop. I bet it is a real palace of a place.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Please help with some more advice: which orientation of the growth rings would be better for cutting spruce stringers?

    (Perhaps stringer is not the correct term, as it would not be used mid-panel but only in square corners. Chine-log, perhaps?)

    It will be used with glue as the primary structural adhesion, not screws - in case it makes any difference.

    Last edited by whiskeyfox; 10-12-2016 at 12:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I am now well and truly into the head-scratching phase of the build. I enjoy hacking out solutions for the challenges as they pop up, but there are some aspects of the design that still eludes a bright idea so I might have to come up with a plan B here and there.

    It is a real pleasure to actually mark the lines, shape wood, fair a curve with a plane. The kayak visible in some of the pics was built from cnc routed panels which did save some time, but when put in perspective of overall time, that gain becomes almost insignificant. As a first build, it also did not instill that appreciation for the word "fair" until every wobbly panel and snaking chine was already locked in place.

    On to the new build, I have cut the transom, which probably means that "canoe" can officially by scrapped from a possible name.
    "Sled" might be more appropriate. It was in fact the Hickman Sea Sled that sparked the idea.

    Also in progress are some spruce stem bits (one of them, at least) and a 6mm Nidacore foredeck.








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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Please help with some more advice: which orientation of the growth rings would be better for cutting spruce stringers?

    (Perhaps stringer is not the correct term, as it would not be used mid-panel but only in square corners. Chine-log, perhaps?)

    It will be used with glue as the primary structural adhesion, not screws - in case it makes any difference.

    I was hoping someone more knowlegable in English boat building terminology would say something here, but here are my thoughts...
    (I'm assuming the longer part of the triangles is the surface facing other pieces of wood)
    If you were to screw the pieces on, the blue one may be best since there is less risk of splitting it. There may also be less movement in the base of blue, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
    That's about it about why you would.
    The growth rings tend to "want to" straighten out when the wood is dried, so you may end up with gaps on the sides of the strip if chosing blue. (This is why a board like this tend to cup, as is almost seem in the picture.)
    Another thing is that the top of the pyramid, if you like, is more easily broken off if you go for blue.
    If you want to seal it all up in epoxy or something similar, this may not matter at all, and I seriously don't think it matters anyways since the pieces are so thin.

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    I was hoping someone more knowlegable in English boat building terminology would say something here, but here are my thoughts...
    (I'm assuming the longer part of the triangles is the surface facing other pieces of wood)
    If you were to screw the pieces on, the blue one may be best since there is less risk of splitting it. There may also be less movement in the base of blue, but I'm not entirely sure about that.
    That's about it about why you would.
    The growth rings tend to "want to" straighten out when the wood is dried, so you may end up with gaps on the sides of the strip if chosing blue. (This is why a board like this tend to cup, as is almost seem in the picture.)
    Another thing is that the top of the pyramid, if you like, is more easily broken off if you go for blue.
    If you want to seal it all up in epoxy or something similar, this may not matter at all, and I seriously don't think it matters anyways since the pieces are so thin.

    /Mats
    Thanks for the reply Mats,

    It is actually the short faces that glue onto the plywood where two panels meet at 90deg.

    The wood strips will act as replacement for epoxy fillet where access is impossible or limited. (such as closing off a sealed buoyancy chamber).

    If splitting along the growth rings will be a factor then the blue orientation makes more sense. Any flex in the panels will tend to open or close the 90deg corner, loading the long face in either tension or compression.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    First scarfs getting glued (topsides).

    I could not be happier with the alignment of the reference edges (gunnels).

    It helped that they are straight, which allowed me to align them on either side of an ali channel. The resulting edge of more than 3m is within 0.5mm along the entire length. Sometimes the stars align and you get lucky!



    Bottom squeeze-out:


    After cleanup scraping:


    Stacked to check alignment:

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    First bit of nidacore glassing with a 6mm ply insert for a mast collar/tabernacle hinge point.




    Since I am laminating a flat panel and can keep the weave perfectly square, I have found that using some masking tape helps to stabilise the edges and keep things neat (only the edges that extend beyond the part, of course). Cut-offs are also easier to handle.


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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I now understand a little better what is meant by "tortured plywood".

    Lots of creaking, groaning and moaning. Mostly by me.

    Learning curve also has new meaning.


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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Some damage control and plywood first-aid. Some of the kerfs collapsed leaving very nice looking chines.
    The problem was getting them to break symmetrically on the opposite side as well!




    Side panels stitched on with a skeleton aft bulkhead.
    Adequate chine fairness for my needs. Not the best photo, the apparent wobble is due to the boat-tail taper aft and the wrong camera angle.




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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Missed this thread. Looking good so far.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Decks stitched on to square things up front.




    The nose-job begins:




    Some lumber samples for trim and structure. All dressed with some Danish oil to get an idea of finish under epoxy.
    From L to R:
    Walnut (ain't that purdy!)
    Walnut (two feet further down the same plank)
    Teak (with teak oil)
    Teak
    Mahogany
    Same mahogany
    Either Ash or Oak (help!)
    Ditto...(it will be the other one)
    Spruce
    Bottom - ply samples, teak oil left, danish oil right.


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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I was able to rip 4mm strips with this simple jig and would like to try out some contrasting lamination combinations for the stems.

    Any suggestions for suitable species? It obviously needs to take the odd knock or two, so I imagine that oak or ash would be one of them?


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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Please help with some more advice: which orientation of the growth rings would be better for cutting spruce stringers?

    (Perhaps stringer is not the correct term, as it would not be used mid-panel but only in square corners. Chine-log, perhaps?)

    It will be used with glue as the primary structural adhesion, not screws - in case it makes any difference.

    Functionally, I can't see the orientation here mattering one way or the other. Grain run out would be the bigger concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    Decks stitched on to square things up front.




    The nose-job begins:




    Some lumber samples for trim and structure. All dressed with some Danish oil to get an idea of finish under epoxy.
    From L to R:
    Walnut (ain't that purdy!)
    Walnut (two feet further down the same plank)
    Teak (with teak oil)
    Teak
    Mahogany
    Same mahogany
    Either Ash or Oak (help!)
    Ditto...(it will be the other one)
    Spruce
    Bottom - ply samples, teak oil left, danish oil right.

    personally I'd go with the mahagony.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I was eventually able to distinguish between the oak (3rd from right) and ash (2nd from right) , only because I found the invoice and because the planks were of different lengths.

    The teak now has me curious as to its specific species.

    I weighed all the lumber samples to work out densities, and the teak clocked in at an SG of 0.95 (60lb/cu-ft). That is way heavier than Afromosia (African Teak) or Burmese Teak.
    The only other teak that heavy I could find on the wood-database website is Rhodesian Teak.

    If indeed it is Rhodesian Teak and the website has accurate wood properties, I sit with something with unusual hardness, even harder than Greenheart and nearly three times harder than Burmese Teak.
    Hardness to weight ratio is right up there with Lignum Vitae.

    Does it have any specific application in traditional boat building?

    I would appreciate help in identification. Will post close-up photos later of grain if it helps.
    Last edited by whiskeyfox; 10-26-2016 at 02:08 AM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Ash is a good timber for rub rails, being much lighter than oak. It does need to be well protected and any damage cleaned up as it will go black if left. My personal opinion on teak is that it is best used on traditional built carvel boats or old school strip plank......if you can afford it. It does make a good deck, but so does plywood and glass.

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I have also seen lots of reference to ash for use on the bruising ends and extremeties.

    The oak and ash planks I have both have the same density, SG of 0.71.

    I know that (normal?) teak is a desirable for decks for its resistance to the elements and good grip. The stuff I've got is clearly not the same. I doubt anyone will use it for extensive surfaces due to its weight. Unless you are building an icebreaker.
    It is also cheaper than any of the other timber species I bought.
    I will have to find a way to test and compare hardness. It might be an unusual contender for foil leading edges, bearing surfaces in dagger-/centerboard cases and cap strips where stainless steel would normally be used. Not on this boat necessarily.

    B.t.w, what are belaying pins normally made of?

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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Bow strakes/spray rails glued in place.

    The stems still need some design adaptaions to cope with the insufficient twist in the V, but a plausible solution is taking shape somewhere in my head. I just need to find it.






  28. #28
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    ?Are you not going to get a pressure wave form between those two ?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    ?Are you not going to get a pressure wave form between those two ?
    That is one of the big "WHAT IF" questions I want to test.
    There will almost certainly be some constructive interference between peaks and troughs, the question is just where that will occur (function of speed) and how my particular V-shape will be affected by it.

    As mentioned before, the idea for this hull shape was sparked by the Hickman Sea Sled. More specifically, it was an article in "The Masthead" by Dave Gerr and his reference to the Wayman and Crouch's speed formulas. The essence of it all is that the Sea Sled can plane at a certain speed on much less power than other hull designs. This is something I thought is worthwhile investigating under sail power.
    A discussion on another forum also pointed out a tow-tank test with a scale model where low speed drag was comparable to that of a canoe. It seemed counter-intuitive (lots of wetted area, sharp chines etc) but it just piqued my interest even more.

    It was just fortuitous that the shape also provides bucket loads of stability for a given beam (for stand-up fly fishing), provides a high prismatic coefficient and a very narrow waterplane at heel and the bow angle of entry being aligned closer to the actual track through the water when making leeway.
    It will hopefully create less spray in a chop compared to pram bows like the PDR.
    As a punt, speed is however not a big priority. If it goes like the clappers in a good breeze I won't complain.

    The most important aspect is however the aerodynamic interference between the hull and the sail rig I have in mind (also not run-of-the-mill). It is also the main reason for the wave-piercing like stems.
    Two years of flow simulations have left me with little doubt that this is the best shape for my application, but that is another discussion altogether. More interesting stuff to test.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Oh, the intrigue!

  31. #31

    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Willempie dit lyk mooi...
    Knowing nothing about the design, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere, but my gut-feel-knee-jerk-shoot-from-the-hip concern would be the bows steering when you are heeled, screwing with the steering balance of the boat.
    I have a clean router, and some sheets of ply ready to go. DXF's are nested and prepped, and I hope to press GO on Saturday 10 December 2016...... Three weeks of glorious leave ahead of me, and I hope to be done with my boat at the end of that. In sailing guise it will be like an outrigger canoe with a leeboard. Lets see how it goes, and have a dice when the opportunity arises. I think you guys need to come to Zululand next winter for some Pompano, Garrick and Kob fishing.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Quote Originally Posted by weekendwarrior View Post
    Willempie dit lyk mooi...
    Knowing nothing about the design, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere, but my gut-feel-knee-jerk-shoot-from-the-hip concern would be the bows steering when you are heeled, screwing with the steering balance of the boat.
    I have a clean router, and some sheets of ply ready to go. DXF's are nested and prepped, and I hope to press GO on Saturday 10 December 2016...... Three weeks of glorious leave ahead of me, and I hope to be done with my boat at the end of that. In sailing guise it will be like an outrigger canoe with a leeboard. Lets see how it goes, and have a dice when the opportunity arises. I think you guys need to come to Zululand next winter for some Pompano, Garrick and Kob fishing.
    Nothing that carefull rig placement and a barn-door of a rudder or skeg can't trim out, I hope.
    Michlett shows a distinct reduction in drag for a fine, well submerged stem. I just hope it makes up for other shortcomings.

    Good luck with your build. What rig do you have in mind?

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    I just have to include this image from an early session in the boat shed.
    It captures the essence (for me, at least) of why I love working with wood.



    Back to the bare hull again. The bow strakes have been filleted and the cockpit area has a pair of spruce chine logs glued in.



    I noticed that I can get about an inch of lateral rocker (?). I need a bit more buoyancy amidships so I will take what I can get. I started with the same longitudinal rocker as the Duck Punt but realised too late that I risk dragging the transom a bit.



    Internals in progress.
    Mast collar supports, inwales, fillets on the lower bow chines.
    Also just started is the tedious process of filling up all the scores cut to bend the plywood. I am playing around with different epoxy fillers, hence the variety of fillet colouring.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    First post for the new year. Actual building progress has practically halted while I try and deal with new design decisions that popped up. My initial design included a fairly complex cockpit panels with a self-draining sole and curved hiking decks further aft should I want to try larger sails in the future.
    The inclined transverse bulkhead closing the front of each of the hiking deck air-boxes was positioned to also provide a comfy backrest when sailing Duck Punt style. The gap between the hiking decks has a recess in the sole to act as a foot-well and brace when rowing. All this structure would add significant stiffness and buoyancy but also weigh a lot.

    The hiking decks were already partly laminated in nidacore when it struck me how much space there would be for sleeping aboard if I did not add all that structure. I went on my first real dinghy cruise in a Miracle during April and the thought of on-board accommodations crept right up on the list of priorities. I want to keep the hiking decks as a drop-in option for the future but for now I need to find alternative solutions to deal with torsional loads and buoyancy. The raised cockpit sole will most likely remain a feature as it provides for both of these requirements.








  35. #35
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    Default Re: Satyr Canoe / Punt prototype

    Well this is all getting very interesting. Do you assume the high speed will come from sailing on the leeward chine with the weather chine clear of the water, or is high speed expected while holding the boat flat? There was a commercial design many years ago that mimicked the Hickman hull. Reports were it wasn't terribly fast. I remember looking at one once when I was shopping for a boat. It looked very comfortable but that wide, square bow scared me off. The bottom was concave and the sides near vertical as I remember it. Of course, it did not have wave-piercing bows. Can't fine a photo of one now or recall who made it, but I did trip across an image on the web sometime back.
    -Dave

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