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Thread: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Nice work!

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    A long time since I last posted - from April to September I was away sailing around the UK and have been working on my domestic brownie point deficit since I got back ...

    I'd begun to have concerns as I worked about what was concealed under the deck. These mounted and eventually I decided to take it off. Not an easy decision as it seemed very sound but I'm glad that I did:

    20181120_114716_resized.jpg

    20181120_114802_resized.jpg

    20181120_114837_resized.jpg

    The ply sheathing had only been glued (with what looked like impact adhesive), not screwed to the deck and then covered with a layer of glass fibre & polyester resin. Most of the deck beams and carlins are in reasonable condition, but I will have to replace the one to which the sheet horse will attach (more holes than Swiss cheese and looks as though it has been attacked by rats) and the one at the forward end of the coachroof. It was the latter that raised my suspicions as I knew that I was going to have to replace the forward panel of the cabin anyway and - sure enough - under the rotten corners was a rotten beam/carlin joint !

    The positive side of all this is that (a) the replacement or sistering of various ribs and repair of two floors will be easier - as will fitting additional knees in way of the mast support and sampson post beams and (b) I will be able to reduce topside weight quite a bit by replacing the tongue & groove/ply/GRP sandwich decking with twin 6mm ply/GRP sheathing.
    Nick

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Thinking longer term, I had been considering the relative advantages of either building a new mast myself or finding an existing mast that could be adapted. I already have some spars suitable to adapt as boom and gaff. I'm intending to use the Deben 4T sail plan as the basis for my rig, which George Whisstock (Deben River) makes available here:

    https://www.whisstock.com/page_02.php?page=02&page_id=2.17&design=153

    Anyway, after posting on the YBW Forum, I found a mast that is remarkably similar to the Deben 4T plans (as modified by George's father) lurking at the back of a mast shed in a boatyard in Dorset (nearly 300 miles from me - a significant distance to us in the UK - but only 50 miles from where my elderly mother lives). A bit of research showed that transporting a 27 foot mast on a Land Rover 110 was - just - legal:

    20181116_091720_resized.jpg

    20181116_091737_resized.jpg

    The yard owner had no idea what boat it had come off, only that it had been is his shed for years. It is sound and will only need minimal adaptation for my needs and, at 200, it cost a lot less than the materials for a new mast. For the moment, though, it has been stripped of its rigging and hoisted to the rafters of the workshop (you can just see it in the post above - first pic) until I'm ready for it.

    ...... Next year ?!
    Nick

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Pitty you not closer, i have a spare fully rigged mast out back. Oak might be your choice over elm just down to availabilty, and also larch.
    Nice to see progress. Appears from what i can see from here, the planking is in mostly good shape?

  5. #40

    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Stefan Proszynski ,llancefn narberth does boat repairs if you need any

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Pitty you not closer, i have a spare fully rigged mast out back. Oak might be your choice over elm just down to availabilty, and also larch.
    Nice to see progress. Appears from what i can see from here, the planking is in mostly good shape?
    Yes, the planking is in pretty good shape - the pitch pine has lasted well. Some of the hood ends need attention and I may have to replace the sheer strakes. There is some work to do on the stem, a new shaft log and engine bearers, some cracked frames and recaulking. Enough to keep me busy for a while !
    Nick

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by peter radclyffe View Post
    Stefan Proszynski ,llancefn narberth does boat repairs if you need any
    Thanks for letting me know. I am, however, a MITEC trained boat builder (after years working as a amateur, I went to college when I retired from my first career) so will be doing the work myself.
    Nick

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    I've been fitting blocking between the sheerstrake and the beamshelf (thanks JStar Boats !):

    20181205_173753.jpg

    The new deck panels will screw into the blocking. (Apologies for the image being on its side; the forum software did that, not me !)

    While waiting for the delivery of the douglas fir for the couple of replacement deck beams needed, I made a practice one from builders white pine:

    20181205_173828.jpg

    It's been a while since I made one - my test piece at boatbuilding college ! It was Ok-ish, but I've reminded myself of a couple of things required to make it much better.
    Nick

  9. #44
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    Default

    Oh look, another deck repair thread,! Seems to be a lot of it going around at the moment. Good work. But I'm not sure it's proper to just casually mention that you spent the summer sailing around the UK with no details or pics whatsoever. Carlins and beam shelves are all well and good but some of like to read about sailing too.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Phil, it's hard to get nice photos in high winds, under low, scudding, clouds, ever-persistent light rain, and fog. In winter it's even tougher, I hear.

    Cheers,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Ah well, sailing ..... It was, however, in a GRP boat - albeit a 45 year old Moody 33 which probably counts as as classic.

    We set off from Exmouth (SW England) in late April and went around clockwise ( through the Irish Sea, not outside Ireland) and returned to Exmouth in early September. This was one of the best summers, weather wise, that the UK has had since 1976, so our problem was more often lack of wind than too much !

    We spent seven weeks cruising the West Coast of Scotland and the Hebrides - cruising heaven - before doing Orkney to the end in about four; the east and south coasts of the UK have fewer havens and anchorages, so passages were longer.

    Most of the time we were a crew of two middle aged blokes and a dog but were occasionally joined by friends or family for a week or so.

    I keep meaning to post some pics in The Bilge, but needs to get them off my phone and have, so far been too idle to do so.

    Entirely understand the ennui with deck threads. All I can say is that there are a new shaft log, laminated ribs, new floors, stem repair, engine installation, and, and ... to come. Please give me time !
    Nick

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Hi Nick,

    You are like me, having a need to build up brownie points with the better half, I have now done my last redecking for a while I am back to doing a major refit on a Morgan Giles 30 which will take about 3 months to do and doing my Old Gaffer in the spare time in between doing other refit work my company is doing at the moment. I do hope at sometime this year to get her afloat and be sailing again. Time will tell if I get it all done. Thats plan A

    Regards

    Simon

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Impressive workspace with those I-Beams.

    Beautiful lines on your boat!

    WgMkr

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Good bones to start with and great work in restoring She's a lucky boat!

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Simon, I know what you mean about domestic brownie points; I reckon that I used up about 5 years worth last summer !

    So as not to bore you all with more deck repair stuff (though that may still come yet), here's a bit about repairing the coachroof.

    The forward end (itself a - poorly executed - replacement) was rotten in several places:

    20190220_165458_resized.jpg

    20190220_165506_resized.jpg

    It was a (delaminating) lamination of pine board and ply which had been tacked onto the forward ends of the coachroof sides. Unsurprisingly, water had got into the endgrain and allowed rot to develop - which had also spread to the coachroof carlin/king beam dovetail joint.

    I laminated up a new 18mm ply panel from two 9mm pieces and joined them properly to the coachroof sides with new pine corner pieces. The outer face and edges of the ply have been given a couple of coats of epoxy:

    20190214_111843_resized.jpg

    20190220_125641_resized.jpg

    20190220_125704_resized.jpg
    Last edited by Whameller; 02-25-2019 at 02:02 PM.
    Nick

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Hi Nick,
    Looks like you have done a very good job of the cabin front panel I know from doing my cabin sides and front you have to be careful to ensure the end grain is well sealed and it can not be over done. I know that I have not done it yet,however, I would like to give you a suggestion about the corners of the cabin sides. I know from experience that the corners get a far bit of damage over the years. That is why, when I get round to finishing my cabin sides and front off I will be putting a brass half round strip vertically on the corner to stop the corner from get worn by jib sheets and other damage caused by people going up on the fore deck. Not long and you will the carlins and beams in place and the new deck glued and screwed down and well on your way.

    Regards

    Simon

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Thanks Simon. That's a good idea about putting brass half round strips on the coachroof corners.

    I've got the deck beams and carlins in now and am just finishing off the blocking for the windlass and deck cleats. Once I'm done, I'll post some photos. I've also got some laminated knees to do before moving on transom and stem repairs.
    Nick

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whameller View Post
    Love the little cartoon ducks wandering around on your coachroof beams.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Love the little cartoon ducks wandering around on your coachroof beams.


    Handy place to stow clamps. With my semi-knackered former infantryman's body, the fewer times I have to climb up and down ladders to fetch tools, etc the better !
    Nick

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    So ... deck beams, tie rods and blocking:

    New King Beam replacement:

    20190302_094602_resized.jpg

    The blocking is for the tabernacle base is the original one re-used. The tie rods are new (there were none before) and are 12mm 316 stainless.

    New stern deck beam replacement:

    20190302_094646_resized.jpg

    The blocking is for a stern mooring cleat - repeated on the starboard side - both new (none existed before).

    Two new fore deck beams:

    20190302_094552_resized.jpg

    20190302_094630_resized.jpg

    one is a replacement but the one immediately aft of the samson post is new to beef up support for the post along with the tie rods (10mm A6 stainless) which was previously only supported by a through bolt to the beam forward of it. The centre line blocking is for the windlass - none existed before, while the port and starboard blocking is new and for mooring cleats.

    The forward ends of the coachroof carlins had new ends scarphed in:

    20190302_094608_resized.jpg

    which was a somewhat tricky piece of joinery work.

    Finally, a couple of side deck half beams were also replaced. I'm now moving on to some transom repairs.
    Nick

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Hi Nick,

    It will soon be time to get back to deck blogs again and how to relay the decks, I think I have forgotten how to do it, you may have to enlighten me on how it is done so that the readers get to know how it is done.I see the only area you have not done yet is the top of the transom. That should not take long and the deck will be going back on and you can get on with the interior refit. Happy days and nights to come for us both. I will be starting my yacht again shortly and we can check each others progress.

    Regards

    Simon

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jstarboats View Post
    Hi Nick,

    It will soon be time to get back to deck blogs again and how to relay the decks, I think I have forgotten how to do it, you may have to enlighten me on how it is done so that the readers get to know how it is done.I see the only area you have not done yet is the top of the transom. That should not take long and the deck will be going back on and you can get on with the interior refit. Happy days and nights to come for us both. I will be starting my yacht again shortly and we can check each others progress.

    Regards

    Simon
    I think that I would do as much outfit as I could before nailing down the lid. More light and the ability to stick your head up between the beams.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I think that I would do as much outfit as I could before nailing down the lid. More light and the ability to stick your head up between the beams.
    That's the way I'm going; at 6'4", I need all the headroom and light I can get ! I've got the king beam knees to install, a few frames to replace or sister, one floor to replace, new engine beds, forepeak joinery, cabin joinery .... the list goes on.

    Simon, I've also got to scarph on a replacement for the (rotten) top 4 inches of the stem as well as the work on the top of the transom.

    Anyway, there won't be anything happening for a little while; I've got some contract work and will be away for a couple of weeks. When I get back, a client has bought in some (bodged) dory thwarts to sort out - which will need to be done first !
    Nick

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Even though she's probably not a Deben 4-tonner, I've been following this with great interest!

    I'm with Peerie Maa here - get as much as possible of the interior furniture, bulkheads and fit-out done before you put the lid on. It makes life so much easier when you can stand up! You do need to protect the finished furniture from dropped cramps and hammers and so on though - and glue drips too.

    Cheers -- George
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  25. #60
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Great work! Really enjoying this thread.

    Mike

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    So, after three weeks contract working away and a minor paying job on a dory thwart and seats, it's back to the Four Tonner.

    I've moved on to repairing the transom. My initial investigations had indicated that all was not well:

    Transom1.jpg

    and, after stripping off the paint I could see that there was rot in the upper corners and a couple of small patches over the sternpost as well as a split on the port side of the exhaust outlet. This is a 24" wide board of 1.5" thick elm (the size of which also leads me to suspect that she was a pre-WW2 build):

    Transom2.jpg

    Transom3.jpg

    Transom4.jpg

    I considered replacing the whole transom, which would probably have been done in plywood as elm boards of that size are pretty much unobtanium these days - but in the end, decided to repair with graving pieces made from a smaller elm board that I managed to get hold of. I would have gone down the ply route if structurally essential, but opted to patch instead and keep as much original material as possible.

    I cut out around the rotten patches and opened out the split:

    Transom5.jpg

    More in the next post, the forum only allows five pics per post ...
    Last edited by Whameller; 06-06-2019 at 01:25 PM.
    Nick

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    The new graving pieces were fixed in with epoxy glue (clamps are holding them to temporary backing plates while the epoxy sets) before fairing off:

    Transom6.jpg

    Transom7.jpg

    There's more to be done to the transom - a new cap rail and some inside work - which I'll post in due course.
    Nick

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Nice work! Nice boat!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    The ends of the planks had all been nailed (square copper boat nails) to the transom. In order to grave in the new transom pieces, I had to drill them out with a hole saw:

    20190503_094341.jpg

    (sorry about it being on its side - forum software did that !)

    As you can see, the ends of the planks are somewhat worn and ragged - which continues to a greater or lesser extent all around the transom. Rather than try to refasten them to the transom or tighten them up and risk making matters worse, I'm taking the advice of this great book:

    20190507_133641_resized.jpg

    and fitting doubling pieces tight up against the transom, so that I can refasten by screwing through sound wood on the planks. Buchanan suggests making them as futtocks with cross halved joints. I tried this, but found that the combination of the joints needed with the compound bevels was beyond my level of skill or patience. So I decided to laminate them up from layers of 12mm marine ply using epoxy as the glue. This turned out much easier, and the bevels were much easier to apply, using a traditional bevel board approach:

    20190507_133357_resized.jpg

    Here they are ready to fit:

    20190507_142837_resized.jpg
    Last edited by Whameller; 05-08-2019 at 07:42 AM.
    Nick

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    And here they are in place:

    20190508_105721_resized.jpg

    20190508_105747_resized.jpg

    They are epoxy glued to the transom. Initially fixed in place with waxed steel screws which were then replaced one at a time with bronze ones. The ends of the insides of the planks are masked off with release tape, so that the doublers aren't stuck to them.
    Nick

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Will this leave you to fasten the planking into plywood edge-grain? Is that really advisable?

    I'm enjoying following your work!

    Jeff

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by guillemot View Post
    Will this leave you to fasten the planking into plywood edge-grain? Is that really advisable?

    I'm enjoying following your work!

    Jeff
    I did think long and hard about the end grain issue before deciding to go down this line.
    - only the top three strakes on each side are detached from the transom (to fit the graving pieces), the remainder are still securely fastened to the transom so the new screws will be mostly reinforcement not replacement.
    - once I've repaired the ends of the top three strakes, I'll screw them to the transom so the whole thing is belt and braces.
    - if I had used timber (would have been Douglas Fir) I would have been screwing into side grain which, while better than end grain, would still not have been great.
    - I'm considering injecting epoxy into every pilot hole in the ply to try to do something to beef the fastenings up.

    It's a compromise ........
    Nick

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Excellent work there Nick. Everything's a compromise (unless you're Jim Ledger...).

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    More work on the transom....

    The cap was made of mahogany, but had been painted over. When I stripped it off, I could see why - another Swiss Cheese collection of holes - so I've made a new one from sapele:

    Transomcap1.jpg

    Transomcap2.jpg

    The old one had been attached with glue (which had failed) and screws and had basically been held on by the backstay plate bolts added when she was re-rigged to bermudan (sometime in the 1960s ?). The joint had been backed up on the inside by thin pitch pine battens, which also served to support the aft end of the deck planks.

    The new cap has been glued to the transom with epoxy:

    Transomcap3.jpg

    Transomcap4.jpg

    While the transom will be painted, I intend to have the cap as brightwork.
    The new joint will be backed up by much more substantial douglas fir doublers, which will be epoxy glued to the transom, cap and the new ply doublers. More on that to follow.
    Last edited by Whameller; 06-11-2019 at 11:30 AM.
    Nick

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Transom work now complete.

    Douglas doublers to back up the transom/cap rail joint epoxied to the transom, cap rail and hull doublers but not to planking or sternpost. Original grown oak knees re-used, bolted through transom, beamshelves and sheerstrakes with silicon bronze bolts (originally copper nail riveted). Planking ends screwed to hull doublers with silicon bronze screws:

    Transom_8.jpg

    Plugs over the knee bolts waiting for glue to harden and be cleaned up:

    Transom_9.jpg

    New hood end fastenings:

    20190809-HE_screws2.jpg

    Next up, new knees (six in all) for the two mast supporting beams.
    Last edited by Whameller; 08-10-2019 at 04:46 AM.
    Nick

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