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Thread: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post

    Anyone know why this forum keeps turning images on their sides??? It's pretty annoying!

    Cheers -- George
    I'm taking all these photos with my phone - sometimes in portrait, sometimes in landscape mode. The images are then transferred to my laptop where they are rotated to the right way up and saved as such. I can only think that there must be something in the metadata added by the phone's camera which is being picked up by the forum software and reverting the images to their original orientation.

    Sadly, delving deeper into the functionality of my phone's and laptop's imaging software is beyond my level of digital competence ....
    Nick

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Hi Nick,

    I will have to get round to working on my boat as you will be afloat before me.

    Regards

    Simon

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whameller View Post
    I'm taking all these photos with my phone - sometimes in portrait, sometimes in landscape mode. The images are then transferred to my laptop where they are rotated to the right way up and saved as such. I can only think that there must be something in the metadata added by the phone's camera which is being picked up by the forum software and reverting the images to their original orientation.

    Sadly, delving deeper into the functionality of my phone's and laptop's imaging software is beyond my level of digital competence ....
    Try a slight crop to the image and save a copy. If it works you can then save space by deleting the original.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jstarboats View Post
    Hi Nick,

    I will have to get round to working on my boat as you will be afloat before me.

    Regards

    Simon
    I'm going to have to slow down soon, Simon. I have an extension to build on the house this summer !
    Nick

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Try a slight crop to the image and save a copy. If it works you can then save space by deleting the original.
    Thanks, Nick. I'll try that next time I post a photo.
    Nick

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Just to close up the running backstay chainplate support conversation.

    New backing pieces fitted:

    20200311_214033RBS1.jpg

    These cover the sheerstrake and three planks below. The top end is riveted through the sheerstrake and beamshelf, the bottom through the fourth plank down. In due course, the chainplate bolts will go through the sheerstrake/beamshelf and the next two planks down.

    These backing pieces are then covered by two clamps butted up to the beamshelf and screwed into a rib on either side (the existing shroud clamps are similarly fitted):

    20200313_111540RBS2.jpg

    Meanwhile, there's a lot of work going on with heat gun, scraper and sandpaper prior to painting and varnishing, as appropriate, anything that will butt up against the deck or coachroof before I start putting the lid back on - or be hard to access after that. The lazarette and cockpit lockers have been painted, both bilge pump through hull fittings re-fitted and ditto for the exhaust one and the gooseneck.
    Nick

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Continuing the chainplate support story ....

    Following the discussion further up the thread, I decided to fit oak backing plates for the main chainplates as well:

    20200417_164413B_plates1.jpg

    they are all shaped to the hull and cover the top six strakes.

    20200506_201749B_plates2.jpg

    20200506_201739B_plates3.jpg

    The chainplates will be bolted through the top 4 strakes (and, for the sheerstrake , through the beam shelf and strakes 2 & 3 the clamp) and are riveted through strakes 5 &6. Previously, there were only three bolts per plate mounted through ribs and the beam shelf/clamp - so this setup should be much more effective.
    Nick

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    There's also a lot of painting and varnishing going on as I prepare to fit the new decks and coachroof:

    20200501_120211-Ptg1.jpg

    20200506_201815-Ptg2.jpg
    Nick

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    The main bulkhead between cabin and cockpit is made of pine tongue and groove. While structurally reasonably sound, various holes had been hacked in both sides, round which there was some evidence of leaks. I decided to fill the holes:

    20200506_205633-Bhd1.jpg

    20200506_205658-Bhd2.jpg

    I then faced the cockpit side with 9mm marine ply panels. These have dados cut into them with a router to give some sort of visual simulation of T&G. They've then been given three coats of epoxy before being bonded to the face of the original T&G with epoxy. One new hole cut out to port for a scuttle over the galley area:

    20200508_084129-Bhd5.jpg

    They'll eventually be painted. There was/is quite a lot of T&G in this boat and I, when I have to use ply to replace or reinforce it want to minimise the visual impact in order to retain some character in what is, I think (there's no documented history pre-2005), at least a 70+ year old boat. That being said, the aim is to have a sound sail-able boat, not a museum piece.
    Last edited by Whameller; 05-08-2020 at 05:36 AM. Reason: Forum software is rotating the pics on their sides again ... grrr !
    Nick

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    While I realise that yet another set of photos of a new plywood deck being laid will probably not excite the forum, these pics mark a significant milestone for me:

    20200513_150932-CR1.jpg

    20200516_164050-CR2.jpg

    20200516_164021-CR3.jpg

    This is the first layer of 6mm ply being dry fitted and marked up on the coachroof. It will then come off for painting the underside between the beams. I'm using Simon (JStar)'s method for re-decking - first layer of 6mm fastened down using Gorilla Glue and screws; once set, remove screws and second layer of 6mm epoxied and screwed down to the first, then sheathed with 300gsm glass cloth & epoxy. The coachroof is a nice manageable area to start on and practice the method before moving on to the more complex shapes of the deck.
    Nick

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    It looks as though there will be an amount of flush trimming and radiusing in your future.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Looking good Nick, watching your restoration with interest as my own build very simmilar boat type.

    I don't envy you taking off paint as well as putting it on!

    Why Grorilla glue? is the foaming not a pain to clean up? tightbond or epoxy can just be wiped off?

    keep up good work, Duncan.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Good to see such progress since my last visit. Cracking on.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    It looks as though there will be an amount of flush trimming and radiusing in your future.
    Spot on !
    Nick

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan S View Post
    Looking good Nick, watching your restoration with interest as my own build very simmilar boat type.

    I don't envy you taking off paint as well as putting it on!

    Why Grorilla glue? is the foaming not a pain to clean up? tightbond or epoxy can just be wiped off?

    keep up good work, Duncan.
    Thanks, Duncan.

    I can't say that I enjoy taking paint off but have developed good heat gun/scraper skills ! Putting the new paint if is fun, though.

    Gorilla Glue is on the advice of Simon (Jstarboats), who has re-decked a number of Finesse yachts using this method. I've already started the masking-up ...
    Nick

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Good to see such progress since my last visit. Cracking on.
    Thanks Ian. There are some benefits to lockdown !
    Nick

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Just found this tread Nick, you’re doing good work and should have a very pretty boat at the end. Well done.
    Andrew

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Just found this tread Nick, you’re doing good work and should have a very pretty boat at the end. Well done.
    Andrew
    Thanks Andrew. It's defining when 'at the end' is that is concerning my wife - she wants to go sailing and have me spend less time in the boat shed !
    Nick

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Coachroof first layer panels prepped and painted:

    20200520_135545-CR4.jpg

    20200520_135536-CR5.jpg
    Nick

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    I'm quite pleased how that turned out:

    20200601_120104-CR_8.jpg

    There are a few small bits of glue squeeze-out to clear up but the masking off seems mostly to have worked.

    Now on to dry fitting the second layer:

    20200601_120322-CR_9.jpg
    Nick

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Nice!

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Both layers of ply now fixed to the coachroof:

    20200610_153743-CR10.jpg

    20200610_153808-CR11.jpg

    The second layer was glued on with epoxy and temporarily held down with screws and penny washers spaced about 6" apart. Once the epoxy had set, I removed the screws (don't forget to wax them before putting them in !) and replaced about half of them with A4 stainless screws countersunk into the ply. The edges were then trimmed flush with the coachroof sides (straight flush cutting roller bearing bit in a palm router) and then rounded off (3/4" radius roller bearing bit). A bit of filling and sanding of the screw heads and panel joins and it will be ready for sheathing.
    Nick

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    You have to have stood on it and bounced,if only to see how solid it was.My guess is - very.

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Nice job Nick - and a nice milestone to achieve. Did you have come up with any problems/challenges to look out for, other than the one of waxing the screws? I’ll be doing similar soon but will probably start with the decks rather than the cabin top as I want to leave that off for as long as I can.

    What is the VJ profile paneling on the first layer? Is that a marine ply or a domestic VJ panel with marine ply over it? I was looking at running a layer of cedar or even pine tongue and groove underneath but that's a nice finish just as it is.
    Larks

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  25. #165
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    You have to have stood on it and bounced,if only to see how solid it was.My guess is - very.
    Correct - and I'm 6'4" and no lightweight ! That's before sheathing; after it, the whole arrangement will still be thinner and lighter than the previous T&G/plywood/glass & polyester resin sandwich.
    Nick

  26. #166
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Nice job Nick - and a nice milestone to achieve. Did you have come up with any problems/challenges to look out for, other than the one of waxing the screws? I’ll be doing similar soon but will probably start with the decks rather than the cabin top as I want to leave that off for as long as I can.

    What is the VJ profile paneling on the first layer? Is that a marine ply or a domestic VJ panel with marine ply over it? I was looking at running a layer of cedar or even pine tongue and groove underneath but that's a nice finish just as it is.
    Thanks Larks. I would offer the following pointers:

    - Mask up everything below before you glue down the first layer. There will be squeeze out that you don't catch.
    - If working on your own, don't have the individual panels too big. They are a s*d to handle when covered in glue and you run into glue hardening time challenges when getting the screws in.
    - Wax the screws and/or have a good soldering iron to hand when taking them out.
    - I personally wouldn't use an electric driver on the screws - I tried it but ended up with too many heads burred or over-torqued. Far more control with a manual screwdriver; you just have to accept the muscle ache and blisters !
    - Don't use stainless screws for the clamp down - too brittle on extraction. Normal steel are better and you then replace with SS for the permanent ones
    - Using a palm router for trimming off 12mm of ply was pushing the envelope and had to be taken very slowly. However far easier to move around than a standard size one. No such problems rounding off with the palm router.
    - Before putting the second layer on, mask up any panel joins on the underside of the first layer to prevent squeeze out; I used the plastic film tape normally used when vacuum bagging.
    - Removing the last traces of masking tape and squeeze out off underneath is another s*d of a job. A good, flexible putty knife is your friend.

    The VJ profile paneling is marine ply from Robbins Timber in Bristol, who also supplied the plain marine ply. Pricey but both are really high quality. I'm only using the profile stuff where it will be visible in the cabin and forepeak. Where the dado grooves are over beams, they are given a coat of epoxy. Paint used on the deckhead was two coats of marine aluminium (forum spellcheck software doesn't like that spelling !) primer, followed by three coats of white bilge paint (I want high condensation resistance up there).

    Hope that helps ?
    Nick

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Thanks Nick - very much appreciated mate. I’ve not seen a marine grade VJ panel before and it doesn’t look like anyone supplies one in Oz - at least that I’ve been able to find so far anyway, mores the pity.
    cheers
    Greg
    Last edited by Larks; 06-12-2020 at 04:43 PM.
    Larks

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  28. #168
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Greg , I’ve just done my 2 layer ply roof too and might add that epoxy would be better for sticking both layers unless you can garantee your ply perfectly fitting beams with no gaps. That poly stuff is only good on no gap joinery, when it foams to fill gaps it’s not strong.

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Work has been interrupted while we have repurposed my boatshed and workshop - see this thread:

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...31#post6261031

    I've managed a little work dry fitting the first layer of plywood on the decks:

    20200720_120353_Deck-1.jpg

    20200720_120311_Deck-2.jpg

    I'll be pressing on, but I can now only cut large sheets of ply outside - so progress has an element of weather dependency to it !
    Last edited by Whameller; 08-28-2020 at 06:55 AM.
    Nick

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    I have known since I started work that the stem needed serious attention. I've kept putting this off as I viewed the whole thing with some trepidation.

    Anyway, I can put it off no longer:

    20200830_145500-Stem_1.jpg

    20200830_145511-Stem_2.jpg

    20200830_145519-Stem_3.jpg

    20200905_155057-Stem_4.jpg

    The hood ends were fastened to the stem with copper nails - with the odd random bronze screw to catch me out in places - and freeing them up was a long slow process, but I got there in the end. The stem had been repaired in the past with a graving piece just at the stem-keel joint. Held together with three bronze bolts and (even though it crossed the rabbet) no evidence of any stopwaters or bedding. The upper part waggled freely from side to side and the whole thing must have leaked like a sieve:

    20200905_155122-Stem_5.jpg
    Nick

  31. #171
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    The bronze bolts wouldn't undo, so I had to grind off the nuts and drift the bolts out. This worked and I was able to get the stem out in one piece:

    20200905_161332-Stem_6.jpg

    20200905_161408-Stem_7.jpg

    Here's the earlier repair:

    20200905_161418-Stem_8.jpg

    The end of the keel appears to be in reasonable condition, if old:

    20200905_161346-Stem_9.jpg

    There's easily enough here to allow me to make a good pattern for the replacement stem. I intend to laminate this from oak and then scarph it into the keel.
    Nick

  32. #172
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Nice job Nick – that's a pretty tricky procedure.

    If you could get Iroko that might laminate up with epoxy better than Oak, unless you're using Resorcinol?

    Cheers -- George
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  33. #173
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post
    Nice job Nick – that's a pretty tricky procedure.

    If you could get Iroko that might laminate up with epoxy better than Oak, unless you're using Resorcinol?

    Cheers -- George
    Thanks George. I can source good oak locally but iroko has to come some distance, so I was planning to laminate using resorcinol.

    The hood ends are a bit ragged in places; I'll repair them but I'm also planning to fit an apron behind the stem to fasten into. It will be quite a substantial lamination !
    Nick

  34. #174
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    That’s a daunting job Nick, well done on tackling it - it’ll be a very satisfying one to get out of the way.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  35. #175
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    Default Re: Probably Not a Deben 4 Tonner ?

    Work on the boat has been spasmodic for the past few months while the house rebuild cracks on, but I've now got most of both layers of the deck glued down:

    20210301_171655_resized_Dk_1.jpg

    20210301_171446_resized_Dk_2.jpg

    20210301_171540_resized_Dk_3.jpg

    The bottom layer (with the VJ profiling) has been run forward to the beam just aft of the sampson post; the upper layer only as far as halfway up the fore hatch. The reason being that the lower layer is run with the length of each sheet being run fore and aft - so that the VJ profiling matches the impression that the underside of a laid deck would give. For the upper layer I wanted to (a) make sure that all joints of the lower layer were overlapped, (b) that I used the maximum amount of two sheets laying lengthways across the beam in high stress/load bearing areas where the forces of the mast tabernacle and mainsheet horse needed to be distributed and (c) I got the maximum length possible in one piece on the side decks. Eight feet didn't quite fill this last area, so there are two small infill pieces, one on each side:

    20210301_171553_resized_Dk_4.jpg

    No real progress on the stem. The oak laminates are cut out and shaping on the jig but are not glued up yet. There is only about an inch clearance between the bow and the shed roller door and the weather has been too s****y for the last few months to have it open to work on.
    Nick

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