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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #1051
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    We did pack the lights and other breakables very well, it would be a crying shame to have them break!

    De-construction has continued the last couple days. Soon the ceiling will come out and we will really see what is going on with the framing.






    You're re-using the grown knees right?? Gorgeous....

  2. #1052
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post




    man.. that stench in an iron sick bilge still turns my stomach.... old diesel and salt water with that "iron-ey" smell..... had enough of that....

    but. it's always VERY informative to take apart an old boat... it's a HUGE treasure trove of what worked, and what did not... plus you get lots of old pennies!!!

  3. #1053
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    She is indeed very iron sick! The bilge bands and ceiling came out by hand, the fasteners were long gone. Same with the sole beams, a light tug and the bolts broke. It has been super informative taking her apart thus far though. A lot to think about and contemplate as we build Arabella.

    We will find a use for the grown knees for sure! Not sure if they will end up being used structurally or not but we will find a way to utalize them. The pile of mahogay paneling in the garage is staggering, we have have a lot of usable material to work with from the interior.

    Got the rest of the interior gutted. Will be busy moving the rest of the logs the next few days so it might be a bit before we start taking her deck apart.









    Her electrical "system" was frightening!!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  4. #1054
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)





    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  5. #1055
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Good looking shape. You know that.

  6. #1056
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    That engine to be reused or will you sell it? (Not interested in purchasing, just curious) There seems to be a significant amount of salvageable goods in Victoria. She was an incredible find for you guys as she's so close to what you're building and her gear will likely fit for the most part.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  7. #1057
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    A large part of me wants to scream SAVE HER! But I know her fate is sealed. "could" she have been saved? By comparison she doesn't look as far gone as Leo's tally ho,

    I think about parts being repurposed, reapplied into Arabella, but how much of that stuff will it take for the Spirit of one boat and co-join with the spirit of a new boat?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  8. #1058
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    By comparison she doesn't look as far gone as Leo's tally ho
    Well, Leo is pretty much building a new boat in place of the old. I guess you could have done the same with Victoria, but as nice a treasure trove as she is, she doesn't have nearly the pedigree that Tally Ho has.

  9. #1059
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    I love comparing steam-bent frames to sawn frames but in those sizes both are labor-intensive.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #1060
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    A large part of me wants to scream SAVE HER! But I know her fate is sealed. "could" she have been saved? By comparison she doesn't look as far gone as Leo's tally ho,

    I think about parts being repurposed, reapplied into Arabella, but how much of that stuff will it take for the Spirit of one boat and co-join with the spirit of a new boat?


    This is something that folks on YouTube, Facebook and Instagram are asking us as well, mostly because they also follow Leo and want to know why we are not saving Victoria.

    I think the answer is personal and completely ineffable, just a big sea of gray more than a black and white type situation. I really don't want to discuss it with the greater internet world but I will share my thoughts in this little corner of the web.

    Judging by Leo and Tally Ho; Victoria and ANY boat for that matter can be saved. I think the real question is "should they be saved" which has no easy answer.
    If Victoria's centerline was solid, had a storied history, was exactly what we wanted to build or some other thing like that I think re-building her would have made more sense. To fix Victoria would literally would be more work than to incorporate her into a new boat, I watch Leo from time to time and am so glad we chose to do a new build!
    Also who would have saved Victoria? It would not have been us! I don't want a 32' iron keeled cutter, I want a 38' lead keeled ketch! =) Bruce (her former owner) looked for about 10 years trying to find someone to restore her. We were the closest thing he could find.

    Also if every old boat got saved we would never build new boats again, we would just eternally be saving the old boats from demise. So I think it makes sense to hang onto some and to let others go, picking which ones is the hard part!

    In terms of the spirit of the boat
    There will be virtually none of the original Tally Ho in the re-built Tally ho. Because a new boat is being built inside the old one does the spirit transfer to the new timbers? Or since it's the same designer and replaced piece by piece is it the same boat? There certainly will be much much more of Victoria in Arabella than Tally Ho in Tally Ho.
    I honestly don't know how boat spirit transfers work =)
    It might make a lively discussion as it's own thread if someone felt like starting it! haha

    For me personally I feel Victoria led a good life, had a lot of good times, was a bit mistreated but still was around for close to 100 years which is much more than most vessels get! She found retirement with two crazy young lads and in more ways than one gave teeth to their dream and made it a lot more obtainable for them. All that is solid about her will continue on in another Atkin double ender, her star bowsprit cap will lead the way followed by her bow rollers, windlass, port lights, mahogany paneling, chronometer, binnacle, even her mast and gaff saddle will be there (as the mizzen rig) right on back to her rudder hardware steering the way. If I were an old yacht I don't think I could ask for much more! =)

    With that said, we have pulled all her bronze/brass and have pulled the cockpit and aft deck but she could still be moved. If someone wants to save Victoria the hull is free for the taking! The offer will expire soon though since she will be completely gone in a few weeks. You will get pretty much exactly what Leo got when he bought Tally Ho but we won't charge you the $1 =)

    In all seriousness though

    The iron keel will be up for grabs if anyone wants it! Victoria was 32' and I think an Eric, Dragon or Thistle or maybe something else, who really know? But if someone wanted to build a similar vessel I bet the keel could be put to use!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  11. #1061
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The dissambly continues







    The rudder hardware seems to be in fantastic shape!




    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  12. #1062
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    We also got all the cedar and locust home, we will mill it all in the next couple weeks and do our best to get the cedar to dry semi quickly so we can start hanging planks this spring! We guess there is 4-5k BF of cedar and 1,500 BF or so of locust. We should have enough locust for deck beams, hatch framing and I think there are some clear enough runs in these for the rub rails and toe rail cap.

    All the logs on the trailer are the second log from the tree. There was too much for the log truck to take in one shot so we left the smaller stuff to go back for with the trailer. I plan to use the knottier/smaller logs for non-structural stuff in the interior.



    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  13. #1063
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    Well said! Rip Victoria, but it's good that so much Victoria's bronze jewelry will be on display in the new location!

    Wondering what the milling of the cedar logs will go like. Will you be just slicing the logs into boards or will you be trying to quarter saw? I think there was a discussion on Cedar planking quarter-sawn vs rift sawn. I do know that cedar logs aren't that great of a diameter so Ii probably isn't going to happen.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  14. #1064
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    I follow both you and Leo. In my opinion you in a way are savin Victoria, using a lot of her. Leos project is also about preserving history, and in a rebuild I guess that is the primary goal, as most of the original wessel wont be used. No weekend is perfect without you or Leos videos.

    Sent fra min SM-N950F via Tapatalk

  15. #1065
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    A perfectly reasonable train of thought. Far better that Victoria lives on in pieces, instead of meeting the chainsaw, which was a far more likely fate. I think your project is highly admirable, and you guys are doing a great job!!
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  16. #1066
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    On the Spirit of Victoria and that of "Arabella"....

    You guys are putting MORE heart and soul into building your boat most likely than ANY boat featured in WoodenBoat's HISTORY! I started reading that magazine back in 1978. Only a handful of boats covered were built of materials where the boat-wrights controlled the materials from source to launch.

    I really doubt that Victoria's builders traveled to Africa and felled the Mahogany trees, then transported and milled them, etc. Not to denigrate her builders, but you guys, short of going back in time and planting the trees yourselves, are the TRUE Creators of this boat. "Victoria" in my view is moving up in class in having her fittings reused in a superior boat.

    Keep it up.. as I've said before, you guys are living the dream.


    BTW.. I've witness way too many wooden boats getting broken up at our local Yacht Harbor, and that was just during my haulouts.... Chunks of bronze were salvaged just for their metals, so were mangled in an attempt to remove as fast as possible (stabbing with forks from forklift and pull! or blows with sledge hammer to shatter mahogany for the portlight while shattering the glass....etc, etc etc).
    Last edited by BrianM; 02-08-2019 at 03:09 PM.

  17. #1067
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I just wish I could find a scrap boat to inject life into my project as Victoria has into yours. Excellent work guys. As mentioned above, a weekend just isn't right without you and/or Leo posting. I saw a clip about a kid in the UK rebuilding a Tames Barge type boat at 17 years of age. Might make my regular viewing list.
    Cheers,
    Daniel
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  18. #1068
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Great video on the continued disassembly, gentlemen.

    Some thoughts on the common points of frames breaking: One thing to avoid in structural engineering is sudden jumps in the geometry and size of girders. It inevitably leads to load spikes and localized failure. If you look at the whole frame in section, the plank floors create such a point of sudden increase in size, because the top edge meets the planking at a noticable angle. A laminated or grown floor with a tapered arm is a much better connection that way. Same goes for the bilge stringer.
    The jump in crossection creates hard points where the frames break.

    Now with regard to the other failure points: ceiling and butt blocks. I would be tempted to follow Pardey in that regard and forgo ceiling. And to scarf and glue full length planks with resorcinol rather than fit butt blocks. How are your plans shaping up?

  19. #1069
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for the kind words and insights!

    The plan is to skip the ceiling and just build backs into lockers and such as needed. The more open and easily accesable the better in my opinion. The plan is to scarf full length planks with the resorcinol, it's like you read my mind! haha

    As to floors

    We have spent a ton of time, maybe too much time? haha figuring out what we want to do and what we could afford. The plan calls for timber floors that are 5" tall, the same size Victoria had and I don't love them. We looked into getting bronze floors cast but just the logistics of pattern making, paying a foundry or casting them ourselves..... not to mention the cost of bronze on top of it seemed prohibitive.

    In the end we decided we are going to weld bronze floors out of 1/2" thick silicon bronze plate. A sculptor we know who works a lot in bronze helped us get the welding machine and set-up figured out, we just got a 300amp mig welder to do the welding with. He also found us a source for C65500 welding wire which is the same alloy we are using for the rest of the floors, so that is perfect. According to him the bronze will weld like a dream and he has welded enough bronze that I believe him, he said the C65500 is one of his favorite alloys to work with.

    We recently made a steel version out of some scrap we had kicking around. The baseplate and wings are 3/8" thick because that is what I had lying around, the vertical plate is 1/2". We tack welded it in place then removed it for the final welding and grinding. I obviously will be much more picky on fit and finish with the bronze ones but this was enough to get a feel for the process. Now to practice on some scrap bronze before attempting to weld the floors. The bronze should ship next week, a bit over 10k worth of stock but whatever we don't use we can use elsewhere or melt down when we cast mast hardware so every ounce will go to use.

    Here is the steel prototype.

    Some will be bolted into the ballast keel like Larry Pardey did, some will be thru-bolted through the stem and a bunch will get bolted into the centerline with hanger bolts.

    We are going to have oak for the first couple planks and then cedar, the planks that land over the bronze floors will be bolted on with 1/4" bronze carriage bolts, right through the plank, frame and floor timber with a nut on the inside. Above the floors the planks will be the 1/4" copper rivets we are making.

    Sawmill comes Monday to mill up our cedar and locust and the bronze should be here in a week or two!








    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  20. #1070
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    That looks very, very strong! $10k for material, when you have oak laying around for free? Goodness. It is going to take you many times longer to build them in bronze instead of oak, but it sounds like that is worth it to you. A design that doesn't trap 1/2" of water at each floor would be an improvement, if possible.

    Are you going to have a bilge stringer? My ingrid has a band of 6 heavy fir stringers at the turn of the bilge. They end up about 18" wide and are very strong. I would be worried about having her dry out on her side without that extra strength. FWIW, I have no cracked frames at either edge of the bilge stringer.

  21. #1071
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    It is not cheap by any means but we can swing it so why not? =) As to the time I could not care less, another year or two or three is not a big concern, I am greatly enjoying the process.

    Where the base plate is bigger we will make it from two pieces or cut it after (I am not sure yet) to give a limber hole or two on top of the keel timber. The spot we made the steel one for was too narrow for that. On the stem and stern it's steep enough that if we bevel the top edge the water should just run right over the plate.

    The plan is to put in bilge stringers, I will likely follow Bud in making the outer two taper in thickness so to help alleviate any hard spots. Our machinist friend is making us a longer rivet die so we can make some 5+" rivets so we can attach the planks to the frame and through the bilge stringers at the same time. Victoria's frames were a honey comb of fasteners between the planking, floors, ceiling, bilge bands.. trying to limit the holes in Arabella's frames a little. We can notch the molds and install the bilge stringers as the planking goes on. A bit more work and time for sure but like previously stated I am fine with that. =)

    Hull strapping is also in the bronze order. There are eight 10' lengths of 1/8" x 2-1/4" to make an X at each mast on the hull. We will notch the frames so that the strapping sits flush under the planking. Should go a long way to keep her from hogging especially since she has the shorter and less stiff lead ballast.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  22. #1072
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Sounds like a very strong and long-lived arrangement. I look forward to seeing it come together.

  23. #1073
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    As does the rest of woodenboatforum world.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  24. #1074
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    No ceiling, welded bronze floors, full length planks, strip-plank bilge stringer...
    It very much looks like we think along the same lines, Steve

    I like your design for the floors and reducing the number of fasteners makes a lot of sense. I would however run the bracket all the way up the arms so it forms a flange, like this:


    With the short bracket like now, you have replicated the two hard spots I talked about earlier.

    Bending resistance is determined by the second moment of innertia I relative to the neutral axis. A 1x5 flatbar by itself has two moments I, one on the flat: 0.41 and the other edgewise: 10.4. Which translates to the real world like this: pick a long flatbar up in the middle. On the flat, it droops down like a noodle. Edgewise, it stays more or less straight.

    When you attach the profile to the hull planking, the bending axis moves. The common simplification in naval arcitecture is to put it at the hull molding edge. That distance figures into the new 2nd moment of innertia Ix by the power of 2, according to the parallel axis theorem. So the 1x5 flatbar flat against the hull has an Ix of 1.7, edgewise it is 41.7.

    In your design, Ix is 1.7 at section A, and 43.4 at section B (41.7+1.7, roughly. Discounting the overlap). That's a 25fold increase. Basically, that flatbar is clamped into a vice right where the bracket stops, and the forces deforming the hull are bending it back and forth against it's weakest resistance.

    If the floor is an angle all the way out the arms, and the scalloped middle is nice and easy, there are no sudden jumps in bending resistance and you can get higher bending resistance all the way along with less thick material, which is also easier to bend while fabricating.

    On that note, I would suggest you get a sheet metal roll bender to form the arms. With a bit of practice, you can get compound curves into flat bar pretty reliably. If you angle the flatbar slightly out of square to the rolls, you can work in twist as well. And for sections where the faces of the frames are more out of square, roll a curve into the flatbar edgewise first, then roll it on the flat.
    Last edited by MoritzSchwarzer; 02-16-2019 at 09:39 AM.

  25. #1075
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I knew bending moments would be part of the problem here but haven't the foggiest how I'd go about calculating or applying the theory. I did bending moments in my naval architecture class back in college but I was studying to be a mariner, not an architect so the level of detail was much less. Mid term and final exam were both set up such that I could choose 6 of 8 questions or something like that. Both times, I chose not to do the calculation questions, I did the theory and explaining questions to play to my strengths. Did well in the course but still couldn't tell you how to calculate bending moment of an I beam (mid term question) or the stresses on a rudder stock given a certain surface area and speed through the water (final exam question). Odd I remember that but don't remember the questions I did answer. I think I drew poppets for a launching system and other stuff like that.
    Would that solution you suggest not simply transfer the hard point higher up to where the gusset ends? If you're going to increase the depth of the gusset as you suggest, would it not make sense to also extend the unsupported arms upward to help ease the transition? I'm not an engineer, clearly you have a good grasp of the calculations required. Curious for when it's my turn to do that.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  26. #1076
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Another thought guys, the bottom of the mockup you have is for a quite narrow part of the hull, where it's wider amidships, could you move that bolt hole closer to being under the gusset? One either side within the width of the arms if you will, rather than being on a "tab" extending out past the width of the arms?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  27. #1077
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I wonder how much thinner the flat stock can be given the addition of flanges on the shoes. Also the flange ending short of the top of the flat to eliminate another hard point.

    Very revealing how Victorias' tear down shows the test of time.

  28. #1078
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The take-away from the quick back of the napkin math above is that bending resistance is all in getting crossection area away from the bending axis. Which is our why preferred hull stiffeners in steel are bulb flat bars:

    The perfect compromise between the ease of assembly of flat bars with the higher bending resistance of angle iron.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Would that solution you suggest not simply transfer the hard point higher up to where the gusset ends?
    In a way, yes. Any structure assembled from standardized dimension parts will have local stress maximums. In our case, if you graph the crossection of the hull stiffening along the frame, there will always be a point where the curve makes a jump: where the floor starts. To get around that completely, you would have to taper not only the flange to a point, but also the strap, which is impractical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    If you're going to increase the depth of the gusset as you suggest, would it not make sense to also extend the unsupported arms upward to help ease the transition?
    No, because what you need to decrease is the flange height. If the arm of the floor up the hull forms an angle iron with the section B, the taper from B to to Section A decreases the bending resistance by 96%. That is the ballgame.
    If you take the square sectioned wood stiffener running all the way down into the bilge into account, the numbers above are no longer correct because the bending axis shifts, but the quantities are comparable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I'm not an engineer, clearly you have a good grasp of the calculations required.
    Well, I am a naval architect. Although I don't earn my money calculating structures, I build them in CAD to the scantling plans the class department cooked up.

    Another reason to take the gusset up all the way is that bending resistance is the major job of the floor. The metal strap would only really help in transfering the static weight of the keel up into the hull, but once the floor is dimensioned to resist the torsional loads of the keel and the rig on the hull as it is heeling, the static load is well taken care of.
    Last edited by MoritzSchwarzer; 02-17-2019 at 06:04 AM.

  29. #1079
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I'm picking up what you are putting down but to accomplish that we would
    A- Have to cast them
    or
    B- go buy another $5-6k of bronze! To make the vertial plate like you suggest would take a lot more material, especially midship where the keel timber is 16" wide and the wings are much more shapely. To cut that shape out of a plate we would need to buy sheets of bronze and not strips of it. It would be a lot more material and a lot more work.


    I fully understand how the floor you drew is more structurally strong than the one we built but does it need to be that strong? I'm just saying that Victoria had 5" deep wooden floors and no hull strapping or deck strapping and she has some broken frames 100 years later, he frames were also littered with holes and mismatched metals.

    Assuming our 5" vertical plate and the 5" wood floors accomplish the same thing, we are adding a 1/2" thick bronze strap over the frames, the frames will have about 1/2 as many holes in them, all the fasteners get along and there will be hull and deck strapping helping as well. That already is many times stronger and better supported than Victoria ever was. Would that make the difference and keep her frames from breaking? Or is the fulcrum point the issue and they will break anyways?

    Granted the wing and plate make a fulcrum point, but would that fulcrum point ever get loaded enough to really get it moving? If it did move would it move enough over time to break the 2-1/2" frame with the 1/2" bronze strap bolted over it?


    There will be 4 floors that carry the main ballast keel bolts and we might have enough bronze if I get a little creative to do more or less what you are saying on those 4 floors since they will likely be taking the highest strains and would make the biggest difference.


    We can certainly shape the vertical plate to help alleviate some of the fulcrum point but having them run all the way up the wings seems a bit impractical for us, although if it really is going to make a big difference than we can try to figure something out.

    The bronze is ordered so it's too late to re-work the order so we have to work with what comes but there is still time to play with the design and if we really need to we can order a sheet to cut the wing support out of but I'd rather not do that.

    I think we will taper the ends of the wings just a bit mostly to eliminate the 1/2" landing spot for water and debris. I am going to cut the wing stock to length and then bring it to the machine shop and have them taper the last 2" or so. Don't think it will make a difference on the fulcrum issue but will help to keep things cleaner.

    Sawmill arrives this afternoon and tomorrow we start slicing and dicing all of our locust and cedar!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  30. #1080
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Granby, Massachusetts
    Posts
    325

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I also suppose a few composite floors could be put in. I am trying to keep as much stuff out of the bilge as practical but we could make some floors with bronze strapping and some whiteoak, live oak or black locust since we have all three on hand. Maybe the ballast keel ones could have a wooden center in a bronze cage type of deal to create the winged support without buying and cutting huge sheets of bronze. Maybe a couple floors of each timber and in 50 years I can report on which one lasted the longest. haha
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  31. #1081
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    17,255

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I also suppose a few composite floors could be put in. I am trying to keep as much stuff out of the bilge as practical but we could make some floors with bronze strapping and some whiteoak, live oak or black locust since we have all three on hand. Maybe the ballast keel ones could have a wooden center in a bronze cage type of deal to create the winged support without buying and cutting huge sheets of bronze. Maybe a couple floors of each timber and in 50 years I can report on which one lasted the longest. haha
    I like this idea. Or maybe just weld another bronze strap horizontally a couple of inches above the bottom strap.
    The latest video was great. I really like how you not only explain what you are doing but also explain how you learned to do it.

  32. #1082
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Kiel, Germany
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    185

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Assuming our 5" vertical plate and the 5" wood floors accomplish the same thing, we are adding a 1/2" thick bronze strap over the frames, the frames will have about 1/2 as many holes in them, all the fasteners get along and there will be hull and deck strapping helping as well. That already is many times stronger and better supported than Victoria ever was. Would that make the difference and keep her frames from breaking? Or is the fulcrum point the issue and they will break anyways?

    Granted the wing and plate make a fulcrum point, but would that fulcrum point ever get loaded enough to really get it moving? If it did move would it move enough over time to break the 2-1/2" frame with the 1/2" bronze strap bolted over it?
    It depends. For a full answer I'd need to throw a few more numbers together. All I can say so far is that from a "if it looks right, it works" perspective, the floor design you have mocked up looks like it could easily be improved upon. The proportion of bracket height to arm length are off and I would dearly like to see some tapered flange up the arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    The bronze is ordered so it's too late to re-work the order so we have to work with what comes but there is still time to play with the design and if we really need to we can order a sheet to cut the wing support out of but I'd rather not do that.
    Well, well. It doesn't turn into a real engineering problem until you introduce material constraints . What kind of stock do you have to work with? I'll check my scantling rule and see if I can sketch something up for you. The photos of the scantlings drawing you posted early on should be enough for me to go on.

  33. #1083
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    2,666

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    You are a long way down the road towards welded bronze floors but Leo built some really cool laminated wood floors for a project in England a while back. You can watch the process here:


    My inner theatrical engineer likes the way the extended "wings" give a lots of room for multiple attachment points and spread the load across the bilge. I do remember reading someplace (Skene, Gerr?) that ideally the floors are 30% of the beam where they get mounted.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  34. #1084
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
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    2,666

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    From a spitsgatter being rebuilt in Port Townsend





    They did a lovely job on these bronze engine mounts too.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  35. #1085
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,379

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    If you have a mig welder and become proficient then the constraint imposed by the size of the available flat bar disappears. You can cut and butt weld the bar into shapes that will yield any profile you want, while minimizing waste.

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