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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    No one told me and I did not read it in a book.This is not from boat building, but from what I watched in my years in the Eastern Caribbean.
    Very windy and rough is your typical day.
    Where do you sail Jamo?

    They are soft compared to a strip planked or cold molded boat, that is a fact. Why do garboards open, why do yachts hog ?
    I had a buddy sailed a wood Ingrid in the Caribbean. He actually smuggled people from the DR to SXM. The boat is quite a bit faster than mine, only 4 feet longer, 4 tons heavier.Marconi ketch, leaked a lot.
    Bruce,

    Apparently you're watching only tired, under maintained boats. If your buddy's boat leaked a lot its because the boat needed work, not because its carvel planked. Garboards open and yachts hog for a lot of reasons, but carvel planking isn't one of them.

    I've sailed my own wooden, carvel planked, boat from Juneau, Alaska to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico and back to Juneau. Without any hull leaks. I worked as a shipwright at Riverbend Marine in Ft. Lauderdale in the early 80's and sailed out of there in Malabar 10, an Alden schooner that wasn't hogged and didn't have leaky garboards. I worked as chief mate and relief captain on the Schooner Zodiac based in Puget Sound. I'm sure you're familiar with her. Her garboards don't leak either, and she isn't hogged. Its about knowing how to care for a boat (of any construction method) and then being able to either do the work or being able to afford to have it done.

    And could you define "soft"...?

    Jamo

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Craig- Does your Ingrid have a flat shaft for the motor? Do you have any insight?
    I have no idea - never even gave it any thought. I'll have to check next chance I have.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Jamo, Your sailing experience is vast, but it does not mandate beating upwind for a thousand miles at a time , no matter the size of the boat . Yes I see Zodiac at times ... Adventuress also. They motor around in calms and blows , sail under Reefed canvas in nice conditions .
    we got some thread drift here.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    What's wrong with a flat shaft?
    i would have thought if you can get the engine lower and make room above, alls good?
    if your shaft seal is any good, can't be that water will flow back up.
    engine installed level has to be better for level in the sump etc.
    BIG ships prop shafts are level aren't they?

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I think it might have to do with the prop actually pushing the stern of the boat up , as the "s" wave tries to bury it. ( the stern). Putting an engine as low as one can get it may be dis advantageous to getting it as high as one can .

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    At the risk of thread drift and also seeing as this boat has been "designed" with the shaft flat anyway.
    the S wave to my way of thinking is to do with hull design and the amount that the prop adds to this effect would be minimal once speed has been attained and momentum takes over as the main contributor to this problem. Anyway in a sailing boat how much motoring does one do?
    so as the boat "squats" with the wave, the shaft would become down angled, yes?
    just theorising here from a seat of pants engineering point of view

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for the replies and opinions! No worries about a little drift it's all part of the fun and the learning process.

    I contacted Mars when the hunt for lead began a couple months ago. They quoted me right around $2 a pound for lead, never mind the pouring fee. Considering we need 12,000 lbs in total we could never afford that. I have not contacted them about the cost of an iron keel.

    Seeing the parts for the boat full sized has me a little concerned about the beams I have to build up the wood keel with, considering 9,500 lbs of lead will hang off it. With an iron keel I would have no worries about the built up keel, it won't be able to move. I do have concerns with oak and iron not being the best of friends, certainly part of the appeal of lead. I also would like to do all the fastenings with silicone bronze, if I do an iron keel I have to do iron bolts, would I have trouble with bronze drifts and screws near the keel bolts?
    Decisions, decisions, decisions

    A friend of mine works in the metallurgy world and is a rep for the Iron Workers Union, or maybe it's the Steel Workers Union. Either way, next time we cross paths I am going to pick his brain about the iron keel, he might know someone who could help us out. A friend of a friend owns a foundry as well, I'll have to pursue that and see if it goes anywhere.

    Cost might end up being the deciding factor, still have no clue what it would cost to get the iron keel poured.



    Bruce and jamo

    Both your points are taken.
    Let me start by saying I HAVE NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE but I can totally see how a hull of parts (carvel) has more potential to move than a single piece hull (strip, cold molded, epoxied ply, fiberglass, steel). I also know longevity of anything comes down to maintenance and some items require more than others. If I had a compound bow I could leave it strung 24/7 but I shoot recurve so I have to take the string off when not in use, it's all part of the game. I am sure a steel hull could handle more rig tension than any other material and stay straight and dry, I could weld one up, but that's not the dream
    I'll treat her with care and keeping a dry bilge is a main concern. I have no desire to race and 1/2 the point of building Arabella is to have no where to go and all week to get there. Pardey has shown me it can be done, I'll do my best to follow in his path but maybe with a little less teak! haha

    Alix is awake so it's time to hit the lofting floor and spring the frame view.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Progress has been made!
    We finished lofting, the Sawsquatch has arrived, two molds have been made, and we have been working with a foundry in New Hampshire to get a quote for an iron keel.
    I built the rip bench for the Sawsquatch, I have not used it much, but so far I am happy with it. The saw is friction fit into the sled which runs against the shelf. It is by no means a replacement for a table saw and the cuts are not perfect but they are close enough to clean up with the hand plane or a pass or two on the jointer. I can rip to just under max depth for the Sawsquatch, 4" or so. The set up should work wonderfully for bringing the big pine and oak slabs down to a manageable size. The table is 2' deep and 20' long, I can rip the edge off a 20" board or slice it down the middle depending on how it sits under the shelf.

    I would guess the lofting took around 40 hours so far. We still need to draw in the main fasteners and wrap up the ballast drawing once we decide on lead or iron. We took our time, probably spent 15 hours scratching our heads and burying our noses in books but we got it done. We lofted all three views and got them to agree with each other. I don't want to know how many miles of lines we drew only to erase. Mechanical pencils with colored lead was a god send. Friends have come to see the lofted plans, they look puzzled and have a worried expression as we run around pointing out all the parts and views. One friend said it looked like something a mental patient would draw. That's when I knew we were on the right track ;-)

    Making molds has been slow to start but the second mold went together faster than the first and I am sure that trend will continue as we dial in our system. The nail imprinting trick works like a charm. I bolted a big hunk of Melamine plywood to the table on my bandsaw, made a world of difference when cutting out the molds. It feels great to be cutting wood and seeing boat shaped parts emerge. Looking forward to sorting out the ballast so I can get to work on the keel timbers!


    The Sawsquatch and the squatch next to "Henry" my 71/4" circular saw.



    Mold for Station 6


    Molds for Stations 6 and 7



    The Rip Table
    e

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The foundry got back to me with a rough quote for pouring a 9,000 lb iron keel $28-33,000. Does that seem accurate to y'all? If so that settles the lead verse iron debate! haha

    I am quite positive we can scrounge up scrap lead and pour our own keel for 1/2 of that, maybe even less. I cannot shell out 30 grand at this point for a keel and I feel much better about attaching a lead keel later in the build than I do an iron keel. At least I can trim the lead, it won't be fun but would be easier than iron.

    So this bring me to the wood keel construction. I will get some pics later but here is my quandary. We need to build up a keel that finishes 10" thick, around 18" wide and about 24' long. I have beams that are 5 3/4" thick, 12-16" wide and a bit over 14' long. The beams are clear of the heart and sap, and they have all checked to varying degrees right down the middle.

    My plan is to make two beams that are 5" thick, 18" wide, stack them on top of each other with some tar and poison between and leave it to the keel bolts, other construction fasteners and a few extra thru bolts if needed to hold them together. Gluing the two faces together seems like trouble to me.

    Do I joint the beams together as squared up whole beams and make the keel out of 8 timbers and leave the checks? Or should I slice the beams in half, remove the checks and build the keel up out of 16 5"x5" beams? Also to glue or not? If I do the 5"x5" I will certainly have to edge glue them, if I leave them whole should I edge glue them?

    I'll post a couple pics of the beams and checks this evening.

    I have not worked with beams of this magnitude before and since it's the backbone of the boat I want to get it right.

    If push comes to shove I can slice them down on the mill and glue up one big single piece keel but I would rather not do a laminate if I can avoid it. Just personal preference.

    Any advise on this matter would be greatly appreciated!
    I have to journey to Ohio this weekend so I won't be working on the boat but I would like to start shaping some timbers the following weekend.

    Thanks a bunch!

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    There must be a dead keel you can utilize in the back of a boatyard within 100 miles of you!
    I just would not build a keel of oak, but if I did , the large timbers would need to stabilize for 5 or 10 years.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    This beam I was intending for dead wood so I left the pith in to cut out later. This one checked the worst (as expected due to the pith) but it split right down the middle and did not check anywhere else. Either side of the check line is beautiful.






    This beam is more representative of the beams cut clear of the heart and pith. The checks are not as wide, deep or consistent but there are small checks all over the beam. The ruler is next to/ in the largest check.




    I would be interested to hear any thoughts, good, bad or indifferent.

    I knew full well milling the big timbers and using them soon was a gamble. But since there are other options, the beams were free and I can always mill them down and use them elsewhere it was a gamble I took. I can use them as is hoping the checks will swell shut and I can keep them from spreading, or mill them down to roughly 5"x5" beams and glue them together, I could also mill them all the way down and laminate a keel, bow and stern. I could even be convinced to pony up for a piece of seasoned Fir or Yellow Pine if I could find a suitable stick.

    The boat will have a lead keel, I can't afford iron. So the back bone must be solid, I don't want to ever question it's strength and stability. I would love to do it with the resources I currently have but building a solid boat is more important.

    Like I said I would greatly appreciate any insights.
    Thanks!!

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I would consider the possibility of imbedding a steel I-beam in the backbone of the lead keel. I don't believe there would be enough temperature variation to cause differential expansion problems, but if that wont work, then weld up a form from 1/4 inch plate and then fill it with lead.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Maaaaay be consult with a sawyer on beam cutting & selection and plan on copious amounts of log sealer?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I went scrounging around for 500 pounds of lead a few years ago, it was a lot harder than I thought it would be. I got a good chunk of it from a fellow who picked up an old sailboat and was salvaging what he could, most of the lead keel had been snapped up by guys that cast their own bullets. Anywhere between one and two dollars seems to be the going rate. I'll be building another big boat one of these days and I'm starting to think scrapping out and old 'glass boat might be the way to go.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Wow that's a lot of money for steel. I'm hoping someone in the know chimes in on if that is par. It might actually be reasonable if they have to engage vast machinery calibrated to exacting standards. I'm sure a yacht ballast keel is a one off thing. Lead, forsooth.

    My vote is for laminating the deadwood. Epoxy.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I wonder if nowadays you couldn't get mild steel keels plasma cut to shape in layers and bolt it as a laminate. Either 1 inch thick or thicker. I worked on large die shoes 4-6 inches thick. There shape and punching clearance holes were all rough plasma cuts. You wouldn't need the surface blanchard ground, but it might be a cost effective option. Epoxy finished like steel ships for longevity. Or zinc wastage attached. Just another idea to get quoted.
    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have driven a 6.5l Dodge with diesel Cummins and it was glorious....

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I am going to get the sawmill in a couple weeks to re-saw a bunch of oak to use in laminating the keel timber and the stem. Figured it would be easier to do with a saw mill than my little bandsaw or my table saw =)

    There are a couple pieces that have hardly checked, I will leave those whole to make the stern post out of.

    I can laminate the stem with one solid piece for each layer without any issues, the thickness of the stem lamination's will be determined by how thin they need to be to make the curve. It's fairly easy to figure out and set up for.

    The keel timber is a different story. I am honestly not sure how to go about gluing up a piece that big. The keel timber should finish roughly 18"x10"x25' (that gives me some wiggle room when cutting it down to size). I have not personally seen a lamination done that was this big other than in factory made engineered beams. How would ya'll go about doing it? I don't have clear oak 18" wide so each layer would have to be made of several pieces.

    How thick and wide should each piece be? How many pieces per layer? Are scarf joints worth doing? or are butt joints fine? Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I personally dont know the answer to your questions Steve, just taking an educated guess from stuff. I have a couple of plans from a well regarded designer where he specifies gluing up the keel timber fom 1" lam's( that is in Doug Fir though), doesnt say about scarfs but I reckon i'd be doing them just for peace of mind. Perhaps doing a two piece glue up ( two 18x5x25') then join em together to make the final size. You could also make your initial layer to the exact size then use a pattern bit in router to copy the size through after the next layer is on etc etc. Another idea to keep in mind is to do the total glue up then set up a couple of straight rails either side then a router in sled riding on the rails to bring keel down to size. The Russian ( Anton?) dude glued his up using internal layers on about a 30 degree angle to centerline, this is interesting in that it'd help to hold together if any more checks appear. Sorry dont know thread name.

    2c worth

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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I am with Andrew. You have some nice timber outside the line of the checked pith.
    Rip the logs up into clear good timber and then glue (use epoxy) them to make up the deadwood.
    Should be as strong or if not stronger than a straight log.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    1" lams would be my guess as well. Seems like a reasonable wood to glue ratio. If I do 1" thick lams there is enough material to make finger joints and or tongue and groove. Do you think it would make much of a difference structurally? I have a shaper and could easily enough joint each layer together as well as glue them. Thoughts?

    Pardey has done an excellent job making epoxy sound like risky business, my initial thought would be to use Resorcinol. Thankfully I have time to research the adhesive of choice. I don't know much about epoxy, the only stuff I have used comes in a squeeze tube for small repairs. What would you recommend for the type of epoxy?

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I was curious what could be thought risky about epoxy, here's an old thread about it: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...sus-Wood-Epoxy

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    It is the oak that is risky, not the epoxy.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Been reading a while and just wanted to say . . .

    Finastkind.

  24. #94

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Good luck! I am not too far away either.
    As a note, it is Very unusual to see any sort of universal joint in a prop shaft, especially at each end like a PTO as you mention. One big reason is that a PTO shaft is all about torque and a prop shaft is all about thrust, and typical "U" joints don't like thrust. Remember, the prop pushes on the shaft, which pushes on the engine, which drags the boat through the water via the engine mounts. Every bit of effort to move the boat through the water is transferred to the engine mounts. Very different than a PTO or a car.

    The flat shaft angle may seem unusual today, but back when this boat was designed (and in the era of Red Wing motors) they were pretty common whenever possible. That time wasn't far from when the lube systems in engines were still quite primitive and engines needed to sit as flat as possible. Hmm, surprised this seems odd to you Bruce. (you should remember them. )
    I used to run an Irwn 65, it had universal behind the engine again near the stuffing box. Never had problem, but did need greasing weekly. I've seen it on a few other boats where the engine was mounted at an odd angle.

  25. #95

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Great Work. Doubt I can offer much, but I hope to learn. An ingrid is a boat I'd love to try, but I would do strip plank/epoxy because I don't have a background in traditional boat building.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    1" lams would be my guess as well. Seems like a reasonable wood to glue ratio. If I do 1" thick lams there is enough material to make finger joints and or tongue and groove. Do you think it would make much of a difference structurally? I have a shaper and could easily enough joint each layer together as well as glue them. Thoughts?

    Pardey has done an excellent job making epoxy sound like risky business, my initial thought would be to use Resorcinol. Thankfully I have time to research the adhesive of choice. I don't know much about epoxy, the only stuff I have used comes in a squeeze tube for small repairs. What would you recommend for the type of epoxy?
    I reckon it's time you rang WEST systems and do some of your own test glue ups. Clean surfaces with appropriate alcohol type stuff and do some to leave out in the weather for a couple of months of weather cycling, boil tests etc. For such a big job you'll learn heaps.
    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 11-06-2016 at 03:35 PM.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    It is the oak that is risky, not the epoxy.
    Oak sounds like a good reason for resorcinol.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Yes def worth checking out resorcinol, have a look at Jim Ledgers " lofting a brewer catboat" thread, I'm pretty sure he used it maybe some pointers.

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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for all the thoughts so far!

    I will most likely go with Resorcinol mainly because of the oak. I have read before that epoxy and oak are not the greatest of friends but I have also heard that there are epoxies made for use with oak and other challenging woods. My ignorance in regards to epoxy makes me nervous since there are so many different kinds of epoxy and I know so little about it.

    Does epoxy not stick well to oak, is it the chemical composition of the wood, or does oak move too much for the epoxy? I have read a lot of conflicting info when it comes to epoxy and especially epoxy and oak.

    Resorcinol seems to be the surer bet. The test glue ups is a great idea. I will have to get some resorcinol and do a few test runs.

    Does anyone have a good source for Resorcinol? These are the three places I can find it. What is the difference between Aerodux 185 and Aerodux 500? Is the 500 worth the extra $?

    https://www.amazon.com/Aerodux-Resor...esorcinol+glue

    http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/...Cure-p102.html

    http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-gallon-bottle

    Thanks!

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Thanks for all the thoughts so far!

    I will most likely go with Resorcinol mainly because of the oak. I have read before that epoxy and oak are not the greatest of friends but I have also heard that there are epoxies made for use with oak and other challenging woods. My ignorance in regards to epoxy makes me nervous since there are so many different kinds of epoxy and I know so little about it.

    Does epoxy not stick well to oak, is it the chemical composition of the wood, or does oak move too much for the epoxy? I have read a lot of conflicting info when it comes to epoxy and especially epoxy and oak.

    Resorcinol seems to be the surer bet. The test glue ups is a great idea. I will have to get some resorcinol and do a few test runs.

    Does anyone have a good source for Resorcinol? These are the three places I can find it. What is the difference between Aerodux 185 and Aerodux 500? Is the 500 worth the extra $?

    https://www.amazon.com/Aerodux-Resor...esorcinol+glue

    http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/...Cure-p102.html

    http://www.cpadhesives.com/woodworki...-gallon-bottle

    Thanks!
    just a word of warning, there are all levels of experience represented on the Forum, and the length o time we've been posting here is not necessary a gauge of boat building knowledge or experience. Are you familiar with the work of Harold Burnham at Essex Ma or Paul Rollins in York Maine?

    it is scary to hear suggestions of glueing up dead wood, especially Oak deadwood with epoxy resins. to build this short ship your best bet is to stick with the plans and original construction, you are going through all the effort best to do it right... as it seems you are.

    Checking in timbers especially dead wood is not a big deal and has always been quite common. as long as there is nothing out of the ordinary, no obvious glaring major structural failures (a crack or check clear through a timber with little connecting material, or checks running through planking lines or past stopwaters the checks are a non issue... especially in the dead wood where they will be filled with bottom paint and close up as soon as the timbers swell.

    2 suggestions for heavy timbers and checking, if you are going to cut them wet and dry them fairly quickly you can cut the timber down the center to the rough dimensions you will eventually need, this will relieve internal stresses as the wood dries and minimize/ control the location of checking.

    or depending on the duration of your build, build the boat wet, keeping everything as wet as possible and launch immediately on completion of the hull, then fit out the interior and deck etc on the water, this is impossible for a long duration build, but was long standard practice up and down the Massachusetts coast for larger vessels.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Just for kicks and giggles....A few photos of my keel construction. (Venus 34 is very similar to Ingrid, just a wee bit smaller).
    Well , I guess I only have a few ....It was long ago.
    2x6's of AYC, vertical. Epoxied, screwed and transverse bolted.

    Right from the git go , you have 2 huge problems...ballast keel is crazy expensive and the wood keel needs modifying because of un availability of materials.
    Paul Johnsons Venus boats overcome both of those , and many more, real problems.
    If you begin to have to start changing plans now........?
    32 years old...

    This boat has a 10,000 pound ballast keel. Cement with lead. It is the aprox. density of iron.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 11-07-2016 at 09:56 AM.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I am not familiar with the work of Harold burnham or Paul Rollins. I will have to do some research on them.
    I take everything I read with a grain of salt and won't make any decisions without thorough research, fear not :-)

    i am not concerned with the deadwood at present. The wooden keel is my bigger concern, unless folks are referring to the keel when they say deadwood but I thought those were two different parts.

    There is no way I am going to get one solid keel timber as the plans call for. I could build up the stem out of beams as planned but if I am going to laminate the keel I might as well laminate the stem. We don't have the ability to knock out a hull and finish it on the water so the timbers will have to survive a few years out of the water which is part of the reason I am leaning towards laminating the backbone.

    If we find a foundry that will do a iron keel without costing 30g then I would feel better about making up the keel timber from the big beams I have but I am wary of hanging that much lead off a built up keel made from checked beams.

    If I mill the beams down, let it dry the rest of the winter, discard the checks and do a good glue job I believe I should have a solid beam to work with.
    doing a good glue job will be the tricky part.

  33. #103
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cummington
    Posts
    5,281

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    You may not have the timber for the one piece keel but it could be had.

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Fort Collins, CO
    Posts
    19

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Perhaps I missed it but I didn't catch it so I will ask. Who is your boat named after?

    I ask because my youngest daughter is the namesake of my wife's great Aunt and she shares the same name as your boat.

    Regards,

    Ken

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Delmar, New York
    Posts
    224

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve check out this thread if you haven't already http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...f-rig-schooner

    Lots of laminating of big stuff down low.

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