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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #841
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    New video came out yesterday:




    Did anyone spot me in the last one? I popped in front of the camera with my phone while Mary was cutting Alix’s Hair.


    B5A186AC-3555-4FA4-9F68-3328854BE24C.jpg

  2. #842
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The keel assembly is looking better by the day!

    We just got gifted 3,500 pounds of lead so we are taking a little break from the deadwood while we pour the ingots for the bilge. Once they are poured we can break down the old tank and get all the lead melting stuff out of here, looking forward to being done with melting/cutting/moving lead!

    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  3. #843
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    The keel assembly is looking better by the day!
    I couldn't agree more...quite a lot of progress, and the keel is looking great. Well done!

    Jason

  4. #844
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    That looks great! Not you just have to flip it one last time.

  5. #845
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I have a question for you Steve. Why did you make the shoe flush with the lead? Why not simply build the keel to shape and tack the worm shoe beneath it all over the lead and deadwood? I have my copy of Bud's book about 3 feet over my right shoulder as I type but I can't recall if the answer is in there. Besides, others who don't have his book might appreciate your answer. It's CERTAINLY not that I'm too lazy to pick up the book over there on the shelf and turn on a light to read by.... no that couldn't be it.
    Loving your progress. I look forward to starting mine but it would appear I'm moving soon on the wife's orders so I won't be able to finish my catspaw as quickly as I'd like, nor start my big boat. One day....
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  6. #846
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post

    Did anyone spot me in the last one? I popped in front of the camera with my phone while Mary was cutting Alix’s Hair.
    classic Bauer photo Bomb!


    looking good Sd, is that dead wood glue up resourcinol? you may want to put a few bronze drifts through the assembly just to be sure nothing moves too much. Great to see a big boat coming together.

    has anyone invited you folks to the SRR? smaller boats than what you'r building, but it might make a nice vacation if this heat keeps up!

  7. #847
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Now its getting really interesting. All power to you boys

  8. #848
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Daniel-
    You did send us an invite in a PM but I never got back to you. Sorry for that and thanks for the invitation! I for sure won't make it up there this year, I have to guide in New Hampshire the week before and don't want to be gone from Arabella for two weeks ;-)
    Alix's mom lives up that way and he is due for a visit so there is a chance you will see him up there, if he does go I'll touch base beforehand and put the two of you in contact.

    Sailor-
    Bud just talks about a 3" thick shoe on the aft deadwood. A few folks suggested a shoe from stem to stern, others said it was not necessary at all and needlessly increases the draft, others said to just do the deadwoods. Seems there are a lot of opinions on worm shoes!
    We did not cover the lead because the hope is to put on a bronze shoe from stem to stern. Victoria has a great bronze protector on her stem so we can re-use that and are a 1/3 of the way there! ha! The issue right now is we need to buy the bronze for the backbone and the rivets/roves for planking so we can't swing 30' of bronze strapping right now. If we never get the funds the deadwood is protected and the lead can fend for itself. If we do get the funds before launch it will get bronzed and the deadwoods will be doubly protected.

    On the subject of planking

    Got the chance to chat with some real knowledgeable folk at Mystic and they all saw no real reason not to use oak and or pine for the planking. They said to be sure to use quarter sawn oak and make sure the pine is tight grained, we have both in spades.
    They all said cedar was their first choice but as one put it "No boat was ever built with lumber you did not have" and they all said oak and pine would be fine and ultimately so long as the lumber is good quality that the maintenance was the biggest thing for longevity.
    Also got aboard a 38' Atkin planked in white pine, the chap built her 19 years ago, has cruised her ever since and has had no issues with the pine at all. No leaks, dry bilge, never even reefed a seam. Quite the recommendation for pine!

    We also got an email from a gentleman with a lead on possible free cedar planking. We met him at the Maine Boat Builders Show and he said in his town they are replacing all the high voltage poles for the power lines. Apparently the poles that are coming out are big and clear white cedar, supposedly spar grade in quality and huge in size. He is trying to dig up more info on when/who/how they are coming out and if we can get our mitts on them. A friend of a friend owns a log truck so I am hoping we can convince the utility company to pile the poles and I'll have Mr. Huchins go collect them all for us with the log truck. Our friends mills can connect and he has been itching for a reason to do so, so there is a chance we could mill ourselves some 30-40' planks, utility poles for high voltage power lines are big sticks!

    Fingers crossed!

    If I can get the utility poles I'll snag all I can. I am sure James will gladly mill them all in exchange for some of the load and I bet we can find homes for whatever we don't use =)

    Time to go pour some ingots! Hopefully the last hooray with the lead!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  9. #849
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Ah, that makes sense. I figured there'd be a number of opinions on the matter. Glad you've thought it out logically in your heads first. The sort of thing you want to get right the first time. You don't want to have to go back and jack up the boat once she's done just to put on the bronze if you can get to it before there's a full boat on top of that keel.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  10. #850
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Drilled the first holes!

    The lead drilled easy as pie, had an acetone drip to help keep things cool but I am not sure it was even needed. The 1/2" drill pushed the 1" bit through the lead with no issues whatsoever, I have 0 reservations about drilling the rest of the keel bolts later on when the keels are assembled upright like Pardey did. I guess our keel is high in antimony, only logical explanation for all the horror stories I have heard about drilling lead.

    Also tried a Wood Owl bit for drilling the oak. 1/2 drill pushed the 1" bit with no problems, the Wood Owl cut easily, quickly, straight.... I was floored, hands down best drill bit I have ever used. I was flabbergasted at how well it cut and cleared chips.

    Also pulled the lead keel off and got it upright, the next time it moves it will be onto a truck attached to the bottom of a boat =)

    Next up is shaping from the rabbet to the ballast/deadwoods, get the forefoot and beginning of the stem shaped, trim the keel timber to final length and bolt the keel assemblies together.

    Dropped $3,300 yesterday with Farmers Copper for all the bronze for the backbone and went out on a limb and bought 1,200' worth of 1/4"x1/4" square copper bar stock for rivets.

    The cheapest rivets we could find that would work were round 5/16" and would cost us $5,700 before taxes or shipping to get the 3,400 that we believe we need. Or we could spend $1,600 for the copper bar stock, get square rivets which I would prefer to round anyways and then we have a budget of $4,100 to get the stock cut and heads formed. I have a few machinist and engineer friends working on how best to accomplish that task. After all, we have a plethora of volunteers and a bunch of time before planking, I bet we can get the volunteers to crank out the rivets if we can get a good system for producing them.

    So far the best solution seems to be

    An electric log splitter as a power plant. A female die we can feed full lengths of rod into, maybe 5-10 rods at a time, a male die to form the heads and the metal cut off saw to nip them off to final length. Basically the same set up folks have shown for making rivets with the drilled out steel, vice and hammer but doing a bunch at a time with hydraulics for the power supply. Feed the rod into the die, tighten the bolts on the die locking the rods in place, press the heads with the male die attached to the splitter, back the splitter off, loosen the bolts on the die, slide the rivets forward to a stop block, tighten the bolts, pull the chop saw to cut them to length and if we set the saw up right you should just be able to press the next batch of heads and repeat until the 12' rod is made into rivets. If we can get it all machined well enough and I am sure we can it could almost be a idiot proof system so long as it's easy to tighten the die enough so the rods don't slide.
    Even with a bit of waste and cost of some machining I think we can come out way ahead.

    The copper is C110 and is supposed to be easily cold worked, we will make a few and get them tested but I can't see a reason it would not work hence going out on a limb and buying the copper. It's getting trucked from Texas so it was a lot cheaper to get it all at once, in one big shipment. When we get done planking we will do another big order to see us though the rest of the build.

    I'm open to any and all suggestions for rivet production! It seems the square rivets in that size are almost impossible to get, it would be great to get square rivets for Arabella and to get them cheaper than we could get round ones. It will be even better to have a way for others to crank out their own. The die heads should fit in a flat rate box or two and could travel the country very cheaply. A hydraulic of some kind to drive it is easy to come by, maybe we can help keep 1/4" square rivets in existence.

    Some pics of drilling



    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  11. #851
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Looking good! Just thinking about your rivets. To make a nicely formed head you can't just push a die onto the end of the rod, even with great force. You need to be giving it a lot of smaller hits, like you would get from an impact hammer. Think about having a hardened steel die made that would fit in an impact hammer. A hydraulic holding clamp would certainly be helpful.

  12. #852
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Daniel-
    You did send us an invite in a PM but I never got back to you. Sorry for that and thanks for the invitation! I for sure won't make it up there this year, I have to guide in New Hampshire the week before and don't want to be gone from Arabella for two weeks ;-)
    Alix's mom lives up that way and he is due for a visit so there is a chance you will see him up there, if he does go I'll touch base beforehand and put the two of you in contact.
    Sweet! I'm assuming Peter B will be there again this year and a bunch of other Traditional Small Craft Assoc. folk... there's always a boat about to catch a ride on.

  13. #853
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Looking good! Just thinking about your rivets. To make a nicely formed head you can't just push a die onto the end of the rod, even with great force. You need to be giving it a lot of smaller hits, like you would get from an impact hammer. Think about having a hardened steel die made that would fit in an impact hammer. A hydraulic holding clamp would certainly be helpful.
    there's always the old fashion way...


  14. #854
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    A novice question, if you will. How will you get a tight seal with square rivets? Simply drive them through an undersized hole? Oak will like to blow out at the corners I’d think. Squaring out with a chisel would make slow going. Just curious what you were planning.

  15. #855
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The Off Center Harbor guys talk a little about using a pneumatic riveter. If you can’t see the video I’ll show it to you next time we see you. We might be passing through in a couple of weeks.


    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/2012...rivets-faster/

  16. #856
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I just looked at the Faering Design site from Vermont, they can get the rivets you’d need but, wow, you are right about them being expensive. Copper rivets are $38 a pound. Not bad if are using 12 ga 2” nails at 140 a pound but when you are buying 4ga(1/4”) 6” nails there are only 10 in a pound!

    http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/fst-flat.html

  17. #857
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    I just looked at the Faering Design site from Vermont, they can get the rivets you’d need but, wow, you are right about them being expensive. Copper rivets are $38 a pound. Not bad if are using 12 ga 2” nails at 140 a pound but when you are buying 4ga(1/4”) 6” nails there are only 10 in a pound!

    http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/fst-flat.html

    I spoke with Faering a few times, they can't get them anymore. He said two years ago they could get them, 10 years ago there were many sources and it was no problem. He was quite distraught that the manufactures are not making them anymore and don't want to do a custom run. The times they are a changing
    James Town Distributors, R+W Rope and Rigging, Faering, and a whole bunch of non-boating rivet manufactures were contacted. No one could get the square rivets in our size. The 5/16" rounds were the biggest anyone could get and we got quoted $5,700-$8,500 for them, which is a big price range.

    We are going to get the 3/4" conical roves from Faering, they have them in stock and are even going to give us a little discount since we are buying so damn many of them.



    John-

    It will take a little testing but yes, a slightly undersized hole and the corners of the rivet bite into the wood. The idea is that the square rivets don't bend as easily as the round ones and can't rotate at all in their hole. The square rivet through the round hole in the rove makes sure the rove stays tight after being driven on and while the rivet gets nipped and headed.



    Daniel-

    There is always the hammer, for $4,000 in savings it could be worth hand heading them all but for a few hundred bucks, maybe a grand I bet we can make a machine to do it.





    I have been reading up on heading rivets with a machine and from what I have read hydraulic or pneumatic should work. Solid rivets are supposed to head up best with slow increasing pressure, at least in airplane and automotive settings. There is a lot of riveting info out there but not much boat related riveting, the info should transfer though. Small soft rivets can be headed in one quick blow, bigger harder rivets should be headed more slowly up to several seconds for big steel rivets. It will take some experimenting but I think we can figure it out. Hopefully a log splitter is slow enough and powerful enough to head up a few at a time, if not I think we will either try a big shop press to exert more force or some sort of air chisel to give it a bunch of small taps to head them. The die should work equally well with a bunch of different power supplies.

    I will keep reading and seeing what I can learn

    The copper and bronze should be here in the next couple weeks and we can start experimenting with the copper a bit.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  18. #858
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Do you have a palm nailer? It may be useful if it isn’t too aggressive.

  19. #859
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    For Meg there was some pondering rivets versus bolts at the ends where screws would not me enough to hold the planks in. They went with making rivets from stock rod cut to fit and washers. They have a nice impact tool that takes much of the curse out of the job. If you look closely you can see the rivets and roves on the frames in this bow shot.

    LFH's design was very nice in that the planks went on without steaming except the front six feet or so of the garboards that needed a bit of encouragement to take the bend and twist in a space where the planking tapers down to pretty narrow.


  20. #860
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Meg got rivets where things were heavy. This little Haven also got lots of rivets because the planking and framing is so light that there was not enough wood mass to really trust screws.


  21. #861
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    A better view of rivets in Meg's 'after berth'.


  22. #862
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    there's always the old fashion way...

    now way to count how many 1,000's o' rivets I've peened by hand... but it's not difficult to get the hang of, and you can hammer all day with little fatigue if the work is at a comfortable height with room to swing the hammer...

    the toughest part is getting a good set of cutters that will not tire your hands cutting the rivets.

  23. #863
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)



    This Etsy site might be of some help https://www.etsy.com/listing/225245493/custom-rivet-tool


    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  24. #864
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Couldn't continue to comment without it trying to be a link...

    Making 3500 rivets sure sounds like a heck of a way to get through a long winter. I have been watching a spitsgatter get riveted back together up in Port Townsend all summer. It's thoughtful work. My next big boat is likely to get riveted so I'm following along with great interest.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  25. #865
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    [QUOTE=sdenette;5616973]I spoke with Faering a few times, they can't get them anymore. He said two years ago they could get them, 10 years ago there were many sources and it was no problem. He was quite distraught that the manufactures are not making them anymore and don't want to do a custom run. The times they are a changing


    I wonder if contacting who was producing the rivets for Faering would get you anywhere. Find out how they produced them, if the tooling is available for purchase, and any other tips they might have. I realize these might be long shots, or maybe you have already tried this.

    Side note: A good friend of mine has a copper goods manufacturing operation en Mexico. I wonder if this is a niche market he should look into. Those guys a great at busting out quality product at a good price. As his prices are pretty good, I have been wondering about copper drinking water tanks. For down low, where the weight would be a benefit.



    Looking good, keep it up!
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  26. #866
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Sounds like you'd to put your Mexico buddy in touch with a couple of boys from Western Mass. and in short order. I love that custom rivet tool above. I might have to pick one up myself. Catspaw will need some rivets as will Eunoia eventually.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  27. #867
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Saw you were looking for copper nails. I think you can get it from these places:

    https://www.hovedsmann.no/categories...ing-spikersaum

    http://www.trebaten.no/spiker%2C-kli...enu=_100_1891_

    If you dont find it on the web, contact the owner of Seglloftet/Hovedsmann, he can probably get them, if not contact Jeppe Jul-Nielsen, Norways boatbuilding and Colin Archer guru, he has his own english pages:
    http://www.jul-nielsen.no

  28. #868
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    what about Copper rod, cut to length for each rivet... far less waste that way, and no need to scrap the off cuts to recoupe some of your funds...

  29. #869
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for the thoughts and info on the rivets! The material is all ordered so as soon as it arrives we can start playing with it and figuring out how best to turn the 12' copper rods into 4" rivets =)

    Meanwhile,

    Since the deadwoods are done and drilled I suppose it's time to dive into the stem.

    Hauled the lamintaed forefoot out of storage and got the first face jointed where it meets the keel timber. I roughed it out with the chainsaw, power planed a bunch off and then used the router and sled to do the final machining. A few licks with the hand plane and that face should be done. It's not much shape to the backbone yet but it's slowly emerging =)

    We also got given an 8" jointer to replace our 6" and we found a Shipmate 211 with all it's parts for Arabella. I don't think the stove has even been used, it has been in storage for over 40 years and the gentleman was only asking $250! The stove is about 2 hours away, we are going to collect it in August. I know it's way too early to be thinking of the interior but it was too good a deal to pass up!

    The forefoot thus fabr />

    Getting a flat face



    Grandpappy is ecstatic to see the backbone coming together. He literally walks down EVERY day to see the progress.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  30. #870
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I hope he gets to see her aswim.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  31. #871
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Great news on the Shipmate! She’ll be perfect for you.

  32. #872
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I'd come up with a hot forge system for the rivets with a die & mandrel using hydraulics. This would be the quickest way to make them, then heat treat on mass. Sounds like you are on the right path.

  33. #873
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Progress on the forefoot, finally shaping those laminations we made in the fall!



    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  34. #874
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I roughed it out with the chainsaw, power planed a bunch off and then used the router and sled to do the final machining. A few licks with the hand plane and that face should be done.
    Is your big bandsaw not working? It looks like it's more of a side table right now.

  35. #875
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    Is your big bandsaw not working? It looks like it's more of a side table right now.
    The forefoot was too big and heavy to put through the bandsaw. There comes a point when it's easier to bring the saw to the wood than the wood to the saw.



    Today was NOT one of those days! We used the bandsaw to full effect =)

    Took us less than 2 hours to slice out all the stem pieces, now to transfer over the water/station lines and work with the planes until everything fits just right.

    The tip of the stem is very long and not fully shaped, hence it looking less than fair.




    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

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