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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Heel well. You'll get there.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I hand stitched the first set of lowers for Woodwind.
    That gobbled up a few hundred hours .....

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Heel well. You'll get there.
    Nice pun! Well played!

    Certainly a violin, I am thinking of following the Guarneri family deigns, they were a bit heavier built than the more famous Stradivari and to my ear have a deeper richer tone, which I like. Like Arabella it will probably take me years to finish but that is OK, I want to do it once and do it well.

    I go back and forth on putting a gaff rig on her. There is just something about the gaff rig that draws me, like the rest of this project it is less about practicality and more about the ineffable romantic side of it. She might end up gaff rigged, maybe not, like a lot of decisions I have some time to mull it over.

    Cleats and such are great ideas, I am just unsure about sizing, whether I will use wood cleats or buy metal ones, venture into casting and cast my own? I am a bit leery of doing work that I may decide to change/alter down the road. I need to wrap my brain around the rigging more. I know very very little about that.

    My mom owns a big industrial sewing machine so if I do make my own sails I'll use that. Right now my buddy has the sewing machine and is sewing new sails for his little sailboat.

    As soon as I am moving a bit we need to wrap up the last little bit of lofting. We have to finish the bottoms of the frame view (which I think I finally understand how to do) and loft the ballast keel since we were not sure if it would be lead or iron and it will certainly be lead unless someone has $30,000 they want to give me =)

    Once the lofting is totally done I can start on the keel mold. Hopefully in 2-3 weeks my hoof will be healed enough that I am up to working on it. I want to have the keel mold made and the wooden keel here for the open house/party on May 6th.

    The keel will be 9,000lbs +-
    That's a lot of molten lead to deal with!

    I like the idea of casting in the ground but I don't posses a machine that will be able to lift it out of the ground. I want to cast it on the cribbing for the boat so I can roll it, shove it, drag it, and never have to pick it up.

    My plan is to make a male plug out of foam, build a heavy/thick plywood box with a steel cage around it, put the plug in the box and pour concrete around it. Then I can pull the plug out, smooth the concrete if required and once the lead cools I can pull the metal frame off, remove the plywood and smack the concrete with a hammer to free my keel. If the lead gets through the concrete it will still have to escape the wood box and the steel frame should provide enough support to keep the bottom/sides from blowing out.
    Thoughts?

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post


    I like the idea of casting in the ground but I don't posses a machine that will be able to lift it out of the ground. I want to cast it on the cribbing for the boat so I can roll it, shove it, drag it, and never have to pick it up.


    A hydraulic jack, shovel, chain and a pile of cribbing will get the keel out of the ground and onto rollers.

  5. #215
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    A hydraulic jack, shovel, chain and a pile of cribbing will get the keel out of the ground and onto rollers.
    I believe that to be true but it does sound like more work than over engineering a stout box.

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    You should get in touch with Rob540 about violins.

    http://middlething.blogspot.com/
    "Oh my god, Triscuits are, like, the best." L.F Herreshoff, The Compleat Cruiser

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Think outside the box. The jacks and cribbing will work, that's often how it's done but if you have the will, you could easily bury it in place ON the cribbing you intend to build on. Then once you finish it, dig it out and it's already set on top of the cribbing. You'd still have to tip it up to slide the mold bottom out from between the lead and the cribbing but that's pretty minor. You'd have to dig quite a bit of dirt though. Got a small digging machine or a buddy with one?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Thanks!

    That sure sounds like a fairly epic outing! Where were you climbing? She must have hit the wall just right, that's wild.

    I have literally taken and caught hundreds if not thousands of rides in my life and the ironic part is all the worst ones have been short, hard catches. I walked away from all the big screamers with nary a scratch.

    After years of climbing in Norway, USA and Spain, the accident happened at our home crag in the Northern part of Sweden. The easiest route...

    /F

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I believe that to be true but it does sound like more work than over engineering a stout box.
    can you pour lead in a wooden mould or does it need to be lined with a refractory type material? how about just 200+- lbs of lead ?

  10. #220
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    If the wood is too wet there will be danger of spitting from boiling water. If the wood is too dry it will catch fire.

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The Cherubini brothers happily pour lead right into their glass boats. Yes lead melts at 622F and wood burns at about 451F, but if the woods lightly charred with a torch and coated with sodium silicate it won't burn up.

    The problem is that the per inch sideways pressure on any mold for a 9000# keel is huge. You really will break the mold. Or if you manage to make a mold strong enough it will cost a lot more than a couple of hydraulic jacks.

    Maybe use your recovery time to read Chappelle's section on casting a keel. (You must have his "Boatbuilding".)

    G'luck

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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve have a look at this thread, somewhere in it he casts his ballast in a wooden box

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...lko-s-new-boat

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Good catch there Andrew. The keel starts at post #264 and some lifting happens at #278.

    I am impressed that he didn't get the sides of the mold buried and braced by dirt but it appears that he's a good engineer who figured the stresses right and the shape is low so the outward pressure was manageable.

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    Steve have a look at this thread, somewhere in it he casts his ballast in a wooden box

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...lko-s-new-boat
    is it a wood box or is there a fire proof liner that he lines the wood box with, he mentions some sort of "K3 press board" is that a fire proof material?

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    K3 press board is the Canadian term for particle board.
    Steve Martinsen

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    As I've noted, lead melts at a temperature a good 120F hotter than normal wood ignition. But fire is not only about heat. It's about oxygen. No oxygen between the hot lead and the wood. As also noted, there are things you can do, charing and sodium silicate, to make it work. But you don't absolutely need to if you use good thick well seasoned planking.

    Air pollution is an issue in many areas. Casting a keel any place with neighbors is likely to invite official attention.

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I poured an 1150# ballast into a ply box painted with sodium silicate but still had some charring. Solid pine centreboard slot filler turned to charcoal. Use at least hardwood. Lead takes a long time to cool so it goes on boiling for some 20 minutes after, at least mine did. Probably too hot but it's hard to tell when to let go the plug in case the ingots havnt melted. I sealed the joins of mould with heat resistant exhaust cement.

    i had quick look back at Dons thread above and he sealed with fire brick cement and it looks like he's painted something inside mould, looks like plaster. Maybe the cement.
    Last edited by andrewpatrol; 03-19-2017 at 09:22 PM.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    If you use vertical staves to cleat the boards together I'd suggest steel. My 3''x 2'' pine got so hot it bent outward in the middle with the outward pressure of the 5400# of molten lead ..... the tops and bottoms were fixed in place with 1/2'' threaded rod.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by trango View Post
    After years of climbing in Norway, USA and Spain, the accident happened at our home crag in the Northern part of Sweden. The easiest route...

    /F
    Thats always how it seems to go. I would have much rather busted it on some rad route than climbing in the gym! Ha

    Norway and Swededn are beautiful! I have been twice, no to climb but I hope to remedy that someday. The fjords of Norway look AMAZING!

  20. #230
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    If any of you get surgery, I would highly recommend not getting a stomach bug immediately afterwards. The last couple days have been rough to say the least! I am finally feeling a little better, I did not leave the couch for 3 days.

    It was great to log on today and see all the comments and suggestions!

    The pressure created by 9,000lbs of molten lead will be extreme to say the least. Burying it in the ground makes sense to help with that but it is also a lot of digging! Not to mention jacking it up and out of there. That is why I am thinking of just building a stout box.
    My logic is shaping a female mold will use a lot of good lumber especially if I use hardwood, and take a decent amount of time, the digging and lifting will take a significant amount of time and energy as well. I am positive I can built the box in less time than it will take to dig a hole and it won't be that expensive. I would guess 6-8 sheets of 3/4" plywood (doubled up) to form the box and an angle iron frame around it to provide the support. I can get angle iron cheap enough from a local whole sale place and with my metal band saw and welder it won't take much time to knock together a pretty bomb proof box. I can shape the plug out of foam (easy as can be) pour a couple bags of concrete around it and I should be good to go.

    The concrete won't burn, the plywood will transfer the loads to the steel frame, so long as the bracing is close and strong I can't imagine the forces being enough to push that apart.

    I would happily spend a few hundred bucks and avoid all the time and energy it would take to dig a hole and raise the keel.

    The smelter is another issue I have to figure out. I am fairly positive the lead will come in the shape of old keels, I found a place that decommissions old boats, they said they could get me all the lead I could ever want at $.75 a pound and that everything is negotiable.

    If I use a cast iron tub I could do a slow pour and keep adding lead as I pour the keel but that means I have to cut up the keels to be able to put them into the molten lead in a controlled manner. Or I could weld together a steel container and try to melt and pour in one shot and just pile the keels in there making sure as things melt and shift it won't get knocked over. I am not sure which is the best way to do it.

    I have most of a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" steel I can use to weld the container out of, I can always pick up another sheet or two and my friend with a plasma cutter can quickly knock em down to size for me. My thought was to build the mold and once I have all the lead, build a smelter to suit. I can weld the smelter together and then bolt angle iron to the corners so if a weld lets go it's still mechanically fastened. Steel supports below, on the sides and some bars across the top to keep it from spreading and it should work. I have a good chunk of the steel already as well as all the bolts, I acquired a 5 gallon bucket full of 3/8" bolts, lock washers, washers and nuts a while ago.

    Most of the pours I have been able to find are 1,000lbs-6,000lbs. My 9,000lb +/- keel is almost double the bigger pours, that's a substantial difference. Other than harvesting the trees I consider this the most dangerous aspect of the build and want to get it right the first time. It scares the crap out of me! Ha!

    The neighbors won't care, if they have no complained yet I doubt they will. The closest ones are family, most of the rest are family friends and folks who think this is a cool project.
    The only wild card neighbors watched me assassinate some crows that were stealing my pears the day they moved in. They stood on their front yard with mouths agape as I shot the crows. I just waived and hollered something about that's what happens when things steal my pears and welcome to the neighborhood. I think they are too scared to say anything! hahah!

    Thanks for all the insight and suggestions!

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Ouch! Sorry to hear about the leg. Thanks for the party invite. I wish I could come up for it, but I think I have a family affair that weekend. Love the project.
    My Goat Island Skiff Project Photos:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/999065...7648295059621/

  22. #232
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    This melter is built from a steel hotwater cylinder, it easily melted 5400 pound of lead. The "tap" is a steel taper that fits a drilled hole in a steel plate with a simple handle to lift it , the arrangement having guides to make sure it finds the hole.



    The fire is burning pine scrap and the blower is an absolute essential. It speeds the process up tremendously.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    If any of you get surgery, I would highly recommend not getting a stomach bug immediately afterwards. The last couple days have been rough to say the least! I am finally feeling a little better, I did not leave the couch for 3 days.

    It was great to log on today and see all the comments and suggestions!

    The pressure created by 9,000lbs of molten lead will be extreme to say the least. Burying it in the ground makes sense to help with that but it is also a lot of digging! Not to mention jacking it up and out of there. That is why I am thinking of just building a stout box.
    My logic is shaping a female mold will use a lot of good lumber especially if I use hardwood, and take a decent amount of time, the digging and lifting will take a significant amount of time and energy as well. I am positive I can built the box in less time than it will take to dig a hole and it won't be that expensive. I would guess 6-8 sheets of 3/4" plywood (doubled up) to form the box and an angle iron frame around it to provide the support. I can get angle iron cheap enough from a local whole sale place and with my metal band saw and welder it won't take much time to knock together a pretty bomb proof box. I can shape the plug out of foam (easy as can be) pour a couple bags of concrete around it and I should be good to go.

    The concrete won't burn, the plywood will transfer the loads to the steel frame, so long as the bracing is close and strong I can't imagine the forces being enough to push that apart.

    I would happily spend a few hundred bucks and avoid all the time and energy it would take to dig a hole and raise the keel.

    The smelter is another issue I have to figure out. I am fairly positive the lead will come in the shape of old keels, I found a place that decommissions old boats, they said they could get me all the lead I could ever want at $.75 a pound and that everything is negotiable.

    If I use a cast iron tub I could do a slow pour and keep adding lead as I pour the keel but that means I have to cut up the keels to be able to put them into the molten lead in a controlled manner. Or I could weld together a steel container and try to melt and pour in one shot and just pile the keels in there making sure as things melt and shift it won't get knocked over. I am not sure which is the best way to do it.

    I have most of a 4'x8' sheet of 1/4" steel I can use to weld the container out of, I can always pick up another sheet or two and my friend with a plasma cutter can quickly knock em down to size for me. My thought was to build the mold and once I have all the lead, build a smelter to suit. I can weld the smelter together and then bolt angle iron to the corners so if a weld lets go it's still mechanically fastened. Steel supports below, on the sides and some bars across the top to keep it from spreading and it should work. I have a good chunk of the steel already as well as all the bolts, I acquired a 5 gallon bucket full of 3/8" bolts, lock washers, washers and nuts a while ago.

    Most of the pours I have been able to find are 1,000lbs-6,000lbs. My 9,000lb +/- keel is almost double the bigger pours, that's a substantial difference. Other than harvesting the trees I consider this the most dangerous aspect of the build and want to get it right the first time. It scares the crap out of me! Ha!

    The neighbors won't care, if they have no complained yet I doubt they will. The closest ones are family, most of the rest are family friends and folks who think this is a cool project.
    The only wild card neighbors watched me assassinate some crows that were stealing my pears the day they moved in. They stood on their front yard with mouths agape as I shot the crows. I just waived and hollered something about that's what happens when things steal my pears and welcome to the neighborhood. I think they are too scared to say anything! hahah!

    Thanks for all the insight and suggestions!
    would it be possible to weld up a steel melting box... in the shape of the keel you want? simply melt the lead then let it cool in place?

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post

    Most of the pours I have been able to find are 1,000lbs-6,000lbs. My 9,000lb +/- keel is almost double the bigger pours, that's a substantial difference. Other than harvesting the trees I consider this the most dangerous aspect of the build and want to get it right the first time. It scares the crap out of me! Ha!
    not to late to loft a Tancook Whaler or some such... then you can use beach stones... or pour 50 lb lead blocks that will be even better than beach stones...

    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 03-21-2017 at 08:21 AM.

  25. #235
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Cast iron bath tubs are often used but cast iron is weak and brittle and a tub is not designed for melting tons of lead. I strongly recommend steel , it doesn't crack and fall apart like cast iron and here at least, old steel hot water cylinders are thrown away. You could easily make a big enough melter welding a couple of 35 or 40 gallon cylinders together, end to end.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  26. #236
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    While I'm here, here's the 5400 pound pour showing the pine verticals that bowed outward about 5/16'' over 16'' . Not really a problem but it added a bit of weight to the keel..... both sides.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  27. #237
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I got the cast off and the stitches out the other day. 3 1/2 more weeks to go on crutches.

    Ordered a new sheet of plastic for the boat house roof (the ridge line popped off the trusses and poked 2 holes in the current roof). We are going to pull the plastic off, strap the ridge line to the trusses and put the new sheet on. The rest of the old sheet should be close to what we need to close off the ends which will be nice.

    I gave Duke at New England Naval Timbers a call a couple days ago, we should have the one piece keel timber here by the end of the month. $6.50 a board foot for a 10"x18"x24' stick, you can do the math on that one. It ain't cheap but I think it will be money well spent.

    Chatted with Duke for a while, he told me a bit about his younger days in the Newfoundland bush, looking forward to meeting him in person, sounds like a very interesting guy! If all goes well we will take a trip down in the next couple weeks and film them slicing out our stick, very excited to see this mill of theirs!

    Most of the tools are sharpened, only the handsaws await attention.

    Finished reading violin book #1, #2 is on it's way, once I read that I will start poking away at that project. I got to examine one that was made in the 1700's last week. So beautiful and so cool to think of how old it is and how many people have cared for it since its creation.

    Started making myself a peg leg today. First day in the shop since I broke the ankle. Once the glue dries I will add a couple bolts, do the final shaping, give it a sand, some varnish and I should hopefully be more mobile than I am now. I am very tired of crutches!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  28. #238
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The peg leg works like a charm! I can even lead climb in it. Haha
    psyched to be more mobile, time to get back to work!

    Climbing with the new leg :-) Don't fret, I won't make a habit of it!
    https://www.facebook.com/acorntoarabella/?ref=bookmarks

    here are the two videos we did about the bandsaw restoration.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BLy0yGzCpDs

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG0LHtYq48k
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  29. #239
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Now all you need is a parrot.

    Very salty.
    "Oh my god, Triscuits are, like, the best." L.F Herreshoff, The Compleat Cruiser

  30. #240
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    At least 5 times day I get told I need a patch and a parrot. Looks like I already have my Halloween costume!

    But in all seriousness the peg leg has been a godsend to my productivity and mental health. 2 more weeks to go until I should get the OK to start walking in the boot.

    Another piece of the puzzle has been procured.
    Looks like the start of a home made smelter to me =)
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  31. #241
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    a smelter?! oooooh I'm sooo in... cornflake or corn meal?



  32. #242
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    We could certainly fry a lot of fish in that tub!

    I was thinking more along the lines of melting 5 tons of lead in it =)
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  33. #243
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    At least 5 times day I get told I need a patch and a parrot. Looks like I already have my Halloween costume!

    But in all seriousness the peg leg has been a godsend to my productivity and mental health. 2 more weeks to go until I should get the OK to start walking in the boot.

    Another piece of the puzzle has been procured.
    Looks like the start of a home made smelter to me =)
    Lots of cross braces to tie the top edges together and a solid bit of angle along the edges too. 5 tons of lead would spread those top edges wide open ...... and it would all run out.

    I still recommend a cylinder on legs .It's stronger.



    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  34. #244
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Lots of cross braces to tie the top edges together and a solid bit of angle along the edges too. 5 tons of lead would spread those top edges wide open ...... and it would all run out.

    I still recommend a cylinder on legs .It's stronger.




    We are going to keep our eyes open for another vessel until it comes time to do the pour. The price was right on this one and it was close so we grabbed it. If we do use it there will be a solid cage around it, I only trust that metal to hold its shape so long as its supported very well. 1 ton of lead would split that thing wide open as it stands.
    Fret not, no matter what we use it will be way over built. I am far too scared to use a flimsy melter or mold! The cost of a lot of steel and welding rod/wire is far less than a hospital visit!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  35. #245
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    what is the date of the shin-dig...




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