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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #1261
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    You guys are doing very well, you will have a lovely and strong boat, and the sailing skills to go with it.

    FWIW, I love my big heavy sheer clamp and beam shelf. It is the strong point for all the highly loaded hardware including the top chainplate bolts, jib tracks, running backstay eyes, and mooring cleats. They are also the best defense against hogging. Did Larry really leave them out? I know he used hangning knees, but that doesn't give any longitudinal strength.

  2. #1262
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hanging knees, lodging knees and beam shelf/clamp all work together.

  3. #1263
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    It appears that alone time at sea may not be the best solution for some people....

  4. #1264
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The only difference between you building and somebody with more experience is that they will be able to complete it in a shorter time frame. They will spend less time humming and hawing about every detail, so that just lets them get on with it. This means there is no reason why your boat can't be first rate even if you are first time builders.

    I'm not a wooden boat builder, but sort of wish I was, so I've read most of the "required" reading list and I think you are doing a great job. What's interesting is that some of the information crosses over very well to building in metal. If you are ever bored I would suggest reading Tomas Colvin's "Steel boat building" , while a bit dated it's a great reference.

    If we built again and started from scratch we would take less time, but I don't think the build quality would be any better. I would think you would say the same.

    Keep going !
    Mark

  5. #1265
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Jonathan,


    56201172_316678325717137_2323408059654733824_n.jpg

    56225984_582493975601449_5547867182467121152_n.jpg

    Pardon the angle it's on, I can't figure out how to straighten them out but this is from Larry's book Details of Classic Boat Construction: The Hull. The image in the chapter title page shows the lack of shelf and clamp. The next bit of text indicated by my finger is where he describes a discussion LFH had about it. It goes on to say that both Nevis and Herreshoff include it in their scantling rules. True, it means beefing up things like margin plank, sheerstrake, perhaps adding an extra bilge stringer for longitudinal strength but it's all either elsewhere or simply out of the way. Of course, if you're beefing up the bilge stringers you need to account for the fact that the stringers are probably closer to the centre of the structure and not at the deck level where added longitudinal strength does more good but even adding a bit of thickness to the deck planks will give you the requisite longitudinal strength. I'd just beef up the sheer plank, maybe even put an extra beefy super strongly connected toe rail/bulwark.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  6. #1266
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Crap, I think the images may be too small to read. I'll type it out here instead. First image text:
    The method of attaching deck beams to full frames with hanging knees to eliminate the need for a sheer clamp can be used only in hull with sawn or laminated sawn frames. This method, along with hints for using other methods, is discussed at the end of this chapter. Image 20.1 shows the top three planks left off as indicated in the text for photo 20.1, so that he can more easily access and fit deck beams etc.
    Second image text I'm pointing at For Taleisin I decided to use an alternative method suggested by LFH in his discussion of sheer clamps:"The shelf and clamp can both be dispensed with perfectly well if there is a knee on each frame and the longitudinal strength of the clamp is transferred to the sheer strake and covering board by making these members thicker. Being even more amateur boat builder than Steve and Alix, I will say that my understanding is that the covering board and sheer strake are easier to fit than the shelf and clamp. Next paragraph states that Nevins and N.G.H. scantling rules provide for this.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  7. #1267
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    These bad boys must be very nearly 2" thick, both the shelf and the clamp. It would take a mighty sheer strake to equal that strength, especially considering the box beam formed by the sheer plank and that clamp assembly. I'm sure Taleisin is very strong, but Herreshoff and Nevins both built delicate flowers (shh don't tell anyone I said that!)




  8. #1268
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    To be honest, I didn't look at the scantling rules at the back afterwards to see what they said about it after reading that both Nevins and NGH's accommodated that construction method. A big heavy hull may not allow for it.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  9. #1269
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I do think the Ingrid's clamp assembly is larger than required, but it sure makes me feel good.

  10. #1270
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    If you guys are amateurs then the rest of us are in deep trouble, especially me!

    As some have said (I have cleaned it up for here), 'opinions are like a$&eholes, everyones got one.' Just keep moving along on the build and don't get to tied up in our views.



    Mal
    Quest

    Moving slowly towards a Welsford Sundowner.

    Hobart Wooden Boat Festival 2017, or maybe 2019ish??

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...undowner-build
    http://sundownerbuild.blogspot.com.au/

  11. #1271
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Professional. (From the dictionary).2 "engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur."
    You guys are making a living from building your boat, therefore, professional boat builders. Or, maybe professional youtubers???
    in any rate, you are doing both at pro standard.


    I could tell the difference in the editing. Subtle, but noticeable, in a good way. It was a good decision and will pay off undoubtedly.
    Fair winds!

  12. #1272
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for all the kind words and especially for the info!

    Seems like we should have done better homework before we agreed to do the interview! ha!

    No worries about folks like Linus getting us down. If that kind of talk affected us we never would have started the build, never mind getting this far. We were told we would fail many times, we would never find the lead, the keel timber, won't be able to figure out lofting.... The list goes on and on and on. It's so fun and satisfying to then do those things and put the video out documenting us "doing the impossible".
    Of course none of it is impossible, it's all be done time and time again by folks with less resources and knowledge than ourselves. We got it easy by comparison!
    Also
    Judging by my friends with wives and kids the boat is cheaper, faster and easier to do! hahaha It's all about what challenge you choose. =)




    Back to boats


    I plan on including the clamp and shelf but will likely be installing bronze hanging and lodging knees.

    The clamp and shelf are both supposed to be 1-3/4" by 6" yellow pine or fir. The clamp tapers to 1-3/4" by 4" at the stem and stern. The clamp is bent in and the shelf is sawn to shape.

    We don't have any yellow pine or fir so I am not sure which wood to use but there is a lot of time to figure that out =)

    I think I will make the clamp out of oak so we could steam it if it gives us trouble and maybe the shelf out of locust. We have some nice sweeps of locust that should work well and being so rot resistant it should do well in such a position. My only real concern with that plan is the added weight of the hardwoods but if I shaved the scantlings down a tad we can likely make up some of that and like Mr. Madison said they seem overly built any ways. In Atkin's defense the whole boat seems overbuilt and that is part of the reason this newbie chose to build an Ingrid, figured if I did not get it perfect all that extra material would help make up for my deficiencies =)

    Another reason to keep the clamp and shelf is we bought hull strapping (1/8" x 2-1/4") so the clamp and shelf will give us a tremendous anchor point for the hull strapping as well as a solid anchor point for the deck strapping.

    We also plan to stick with the laid deck like she is drawn with (I have heard all the warnings about a laid deck but I am hell bent on trying, if it leaks like a sieve down the road we can canvas it or rip it up and plywood it but I want to try the laid deck first) and in the literature he mentions bronze tie rods that go from the shelf to the header around the cabin to keep the deck from spreading when being caulked. With hull and deck strapping and the tie rods all connecting to the clamp and shelf it becomes fairly indispensable and all powers combined should really help her from hogging in years to come and help keep the deck tight. With the strapping and tie rods we can caulk her deck tightly without much worry and the 1-1/2" thick decking should give us a plenty big calking seam.

    Bronze floors are coming along well and since we got all the locust and cedar we were not expecting to have, we gave all our frames another critical look and pulled 7 of them for replacement. I am sure they would have worked and worked for a long time but we are now lumber rich so now is the time to jettison any that are not perfect and replace them with ones that are. So one more round of steaming this weekend, finish making the floors and it will be on to planking. Very much looking forward to that!!!!












    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  13. #1273
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post

    Bronze floors are coming along well and since we got all the locust and cedar we were not expecting to have, we gave all our frames another critical look and pulled 7 of them for replacement. I am sure they would have worked and worked for a long time but we are now lumber rich so now is the time to jettison any that are not perfect and replace them with ones that are. So one more round of steaming this weekend, finish making the floors and it will be on to planking. Very much looking forward to that!!!!


    Okay...I'm raising my hand and calling this a "Norm" moment....

    "NORM MOMENT"

    I used to religiously watch the "New Yankee Workshop". I loved soaking up all the methods and solutions for all sorts of cabinet making by Norm Abrams on Public TV. Norm even built a boat in two episodes!

    But.... as the show gained momentum, Norm's shop became equipped with the finest and most expensive tools, introducing more with each episode.. the "guy in his garage shop" balloon popped, and my fascination turned to ENVY!!!!!


    BOAT BUILDER LUXURY

    You guys are now officially living in it... the opportunity to pause and tinker with the perfection of the structure and being able to take advantage of a surplus of FINE materials is now beyond my vicarious vision ... I'm now throwing a "hissy fit" !!!!!



  14. #1274
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    HAHAHA

    I promise we won't every have a set up like Norm did!

    I feel ya though, I feel the same way whenever I see Leo post. Forklift, huge shop, giant timbers that come milled!!!

    Time is a luxury we have but I won't appologize for the lumber resources. I found, murdered and butchered every one of those trees to get our boards, I absolutely shed some blood and lost gallons of sweat in the process! So although we are lumber rich it came at a cost! LOL

    I am picking through the oak pile today (no easy task at 2-7/8" thick, 16' long and 14-34" wide! damn I wish we had a forklift!) and there are some beauties in there. While looking for straight bending stock I found the garboards and first broad strakes today for sure, quarter sawn, totally clear with a gentle sweep down the whole length. Gotta dig deeper for some straight stock for frames though, they are a lot lighter than last year when we stacked them but damn is that big oak still super heavy!

    Seeing red yet? =) haha
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  15. #1275
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I feel the same way whenever I see Leo post. Forklift, huge shop, giant timbers that come milled!!!
    Not to mention the mild PNW climate. He probably had one or two snowfalls that melted in a day. We had some bitter cold weeks around here. But you guys are making some great progress, hopefully I can swing by and see her in person sometime soon.

    -JP

  16. #1276
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I wish we had a forklift!)
    I have a loader and some of the hydraulics for our 1949 Ford 8N I'd GIVE you if we lived on the same coast. With the love Leo gets, I'm sure somebody nearby you guys would extend the same offer, hell they might even assemble it for you and get it running!

    It will probably only lift 1000lbs, but that would be plenty I'm sure for sorting cants....

  17. #1277
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Not as good as a loader, but a gin pole and HF winch could be very useful and very low cost, The gin pole could be stationary, towable, or vehicle mounted. For the towable, think axle with A frame toungue and A frame pole. The A frames could be rigidly mounted or the gin pole frame could be hinged and use a second winch or chain to adjust angle thereby adjusting reach. A shorter tongue will increase maneauverability but will require a greater counterbalance weight to support the load. Use to see lots of A frame poles mounted on the rear of 2-6 ton flat bed trucks, a few on the front of trucks. Saw a picture of one on a Jeep.


  18. #1278
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Walter Greene in Yarmouth Maine has a set up like that on a school bus.

  19. #1279
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    here's a loader that would fit your 8N in not so far away Hudson Valley (128 miles).... $200..

    The Fork Lift attachment for it I've seen for around antoher $200 used.

    https://hudsonvalley.craigslist.org/...817435566.html

    Last edited by BrianM; 04-04-2019 at 06:02 PM.

  20. #1280
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The advantage of a fork lift is they can stack there timbers so as just drive up and move 1, 3, 6 at a time and sort through the pile. With a crane set up you still need to man handle each board to get your ties around which won't really save much time or effort for there purpose.

  21. #1281
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for the offer and ideas! Unfortunatly I think moving them by hand/rollers is what our future holds. On the plus side we are staying fit and as we progress the pile and timbers will get smaller and smaller =)

    Got the diesel onto an acutal cradle today and blew off all the crud that had accumilated on it. No we can really see it and start to try to make some decisions on how best to move forward. We are almost up to the stern floors so having it up and easily measured for the engine beds will be helpful. I am going to design them around the Perkins for now but also make sure that whatever we do would also easily accept a Kubota based like a Beta or Nanni since if we get a new diesel it would likely be one of those.
    Decisions, decisions, decisions












    Also it looks like we might have found a home for Victoria's keel!
    A chap down south is interested in building a 32' or so sail about and sounds happy to build whatever design belongs to the keel. He is in touch with Pat trying to figure out exactly which boat Victoria was and is looking for a keel timber source. Sounds like he has live oak on hand for stem, stern, frames, and can get yellow pine from some friends for the rest. Fingers crossed it all works out but it would be great to see another boat built on her keel!!! It's a long way for a hunk of iron but considering the cost/hassle of casting one it could be a trip worth taking for him.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  22. #1282
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    On wiring both for engine install and boat's electrical system:

    I was working with a design where we were using well motors for a different submersible application. In wiring them up, the kits provided furnished a type of heat-shrink which has a coating of hot glue on the inside surfaces. Any joint you slip these over and heat becomes hermetically and permanently waterproofed. The glue expands and you heat from center of heat shrink segment to the outside. The glue actually swells and you "walk" it from center to ends and know you've got a total seal when it seeps out the ends of the tubing.


    Awesome stuff which I was not aware existed from my previous years wiring power and electronics for non-marine applications.

  23. #1283
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    And I thought my Perkins had a stupid oil filter arrangement! That one looks even worse! Unless the oil all drains out of it when stationary. The 4-107 has a horizontal canister with replaceable internal element. It dumps half a quart no matter what you do on each oil change.

  24. #1284
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    That's a great point about the oil but I can't imagine putting in an engine and not having remote filter locations with dual filters so you can change one while underway. A simple fitting in place of the filter would allow you to put a short hose with a splitter on it and isolation valves so you can easily access the filters. Something to think about when planning the engine space guys.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  25. #1285
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hi,
    We found that the engines in the size we looked at all had similar width for mounts. The heights varied, so we made our beds a bit low and just blocked the engine of choice up. We have an Aquadrive thrust bearing so that helps.

    Cheers,
    Mark

  26. #1286
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    On wiring both for engine install and boat's electrical system:

    I was working with a design where we were using well motors for a different submersible application. In wiring them up, the kits provided furnished a type of heat-shrink which has a coating of hot glue on the inside surfaces. Any joint you slip these over and heat becomes hermetically and permanently waterproofed. The glue expands and you heat from center of heat shrink segment to the outside. The glue actually swells and you "walk" it from center to ends and know you've got a total seal when it seeps out the ends of the tubing.


    Awesome stuff which I was not aware existed from my previous years wiring power and electronics for non-marine applications.
    It's called "glue lined heat shrink" and you get it from electrical wholesalers, they always stock it. Just find where sparkies buy there gear in your part of the world and you'll find plenty of it. The smallest we have is 12mm from memory but it shrinks to about 3mm. It goes up to pretty big sizes but gets really expensive.

  27. #1287
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Thanks for the tips!

    Remote filters are high on the list of desires for the diesel set-up. If filter changes are quick, easy and clean to do they will get done more often. Just like if access to the bilge is easy then it will get inspected and cleaned that much more.

    Thanks for the info on the glue lined heat shrink. That sounds about perfect for the wiring on a boat!


    We called Beta Marine and Hanson Marine yesterday about possibly buying a new diesel. If we go with the Beta we are looking at roughly $14-15k for a whole set up with some upgrades like remote filters (actually less than I thought it would be). Hansen seems much more interested in working with us and offered a Nanni N4-50 all set up for a tad over $10k.

    The $15k is a pretty big pill to swallow but $10 isn't so bad considering we would likely spend at least $2k if not closer to $5k to fully restore and set-up the Perkins.

    We also have a friend restoring a 115 year old Cornish Lugger and he needs a diesel and is interested in the Perkins so it would be a nice perk if we could get the new diesel and donate the Perkins to him, he really is on a very tight budget for his restoration and a donated diesel could help him out loads.

    I know Beta Marine has a pretty sterling reputation. Does anyone have any insight into Nanni? They are also Kubota based but marinized in France I believe. I would assume there is not a whole hell of a lot of difference between the two but figured maybe someone on here knows more!

    If the Nanni checks out and is on par with the Beta then I think we will pony up the cash and get the new one. Hansen has them in stock and the guy sounds super psyched to work with us and the price is pretty tempting!!! =)

    But as always I would love to hear your opinions before we pull the triggebr />
    Thanks!!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  28. #1288
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I'm not a big fan of those Hurth transmissions, but with a thrust bearing on the shaft, like an aquadrive as Mark suggested, they should be OK. A boat I worked on had thrust bearing on the shaft connected to an automobile drive shaft, complete with universals and disc brake. The engine was flexibly mounted. I love that set up, but you need a lot of space.

  29. #1289
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I don't know much about marine engines but the name Nanni is very well known in Australia as a respected brand.

  30. #1290
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    Default

    If it weren't about the money my top of the list would always be YANMAR
    But I'm sure Arabella's builders can make the decision no matter how complicated we try to make it!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  31. #1291
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    If it weren't about the money my top of the list would always be YANMAR
    Funny, these don't have the best of reputation around my parts. They are numerous, but not well liked.

  32. #1292
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    Funny, these don't have the best of reputation around my parts. They are numerous, but not well liked.
    I had to look at your profile, I see you're in Germany, the land of precision engineering!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  33. #1293
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Thanks for the tips!



    The $15k is a pretty big pill to swallow but $10 isn't so bad considering we would likely spend at least $2k if not closer to $5k to fully restore and set-up the Perkins.

    We also have a friend restoring a 115 year old Cornish Lugger and he needs a diesel and is interested in the Perkins so it would be a nice perk if we could get the new diesel and donate the Perkins to him, he really is on a very tight budget for his restoration and a donated diesel could help him out loads.

    But as always I would love to hear your opinions before we pull the triggebr /> Thanks!!
    For some details on what is involved with Perkins if you decide to go that route.. Here. P16

    I would think 2k tops seeing as you have all the components, but may have to replace shells, gaskets, oil lines, test the head, injector system etc as standard. Parts are cheap as chips, easy to get anywhere in the world. A major reason for me to do this was to know the engine, rather than get to know it as things go wrong at sea. My engine rebuilds were expensive because I had to change from keel cooling to raw water, and hydraulic start to 12v DC, but restoring your 4108 will be much quicker and cheaper I imagine as it's all there.

    Where and what is this Cornish lugger? I'm interested to hear more about that if you have any details?

  34. #1294
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    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    For some details on what is involved with Perkins if you decide to go that route.. Here. P16

    I would think 2k tops seeing as you have all the components, but may have to replace shells, gaskets, oil lines, test the head, injector system etc as standard. Parts are cheap as chips, easy to get anywhere in the world. A major reason for me to do this was to know the engine, rather than get to know it as things go wrong at sea. My engine rebuilds were expensive because I had to change from keel cooling to raw water, and hydraulic start to 12v DC, but restoring your 4108 will be much quicker and cheaper I imagine as it's all there.

    Where and what is this Cornish lugger? I'm interested to hear more about that if you have any details?
    I guess coal fired boiler with steam engine with is out of the question?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  35. #1295
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    My coal bunker is just to feed my woodstove, alas.

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