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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #1226
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    Suggestion, Take that Perkins, set it on a skid, hook it up, get it " test"running, put a for sale sign on it, use the money towards the new engine & transmission.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  2. #1227
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I will weigh in on the engine discussion if I may.

    There are two trains of though in my mind.

    I wonder how much of the "use the Perkins" comes from people like us (wooden boat lovers) loving old world things and being attached to old world things. I for instance love war birds but while I'd love to fly in a Lancaster I'd hate it if they were the only form of commercial aircraft. They'd be bloody awful! The comments about it not being old as a diesel aren't exactly right. Diesels wear out just like petrol engines and remember they have higher compression and torque so the metal works harder. Do you know its full history? Has it been regularly driven flat out for days or weeks on end?

    The new engine option gives you a machine that was made in part on cnc machines so the tolerances should be more accurate and while I'm not familiar with the new diesel option you might chose if it's "common rail" it's definitely going to be more fuel efficient, quieter, smoother and not stink so much of diesel. Not to mention easier to get parts for. The downside of common rail diesels against injector pump diesels is that you need to make sure the fuel is clean, no water especially, so you need better fuel filtration and water separation systems.

    Personally I'd put a new engine in Arabella

  3. #1228
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Those are some mighty compelling arguments Steve. Just the noise, vibration, smell, fuel efficiency would probably be enough to convince me. Get the old Perk running and sell it. Someone has an old boat that needs a noisy smelly shaky Perkins. You'll enjoy using a newer engine better than an older one I think. But, from reading your posts to date, you've already decided to go with new.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  4. #1229
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    It's sort of neat to see how it's split on the diesel. Both choices could be considered correct, so it will always be a tough call. We put a brand new diesel in our boat, but it's a massive slow turning beast. I'm not sure what you could get in a smaller package.

    With the move toward electric vehicles I would be seriously thinking about putting in a hybrid system if I was doing it today. I would have a healthy sized battery bank, with a diesel generator that could produce enough power to motor continuously at some fraction of hull speed. The batteries would be in place to allow a bit of extra "give'er" when needed in tight situations. The benefit of this type of system is that you would end up with a decent sized house bank and the diesel can be tuned to perform at a set power output.

    That's my 2 cents !
    Mark

  5. #1230
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Save the exotic thing for the rig,not the engine.
    Go brand new with the mill, if you can.
    Woodwind is on her 4th engine. If I could have afforded to buy a big new motor from the git go, I would have.

  6. #1231
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Another plus for the electric or hybrid solution is that each component can be hand carried out of the boat through the companionway by a single individual with no crane. Try doing that when it comes time to change the Perkins. Batteries while heavy will likely be light enough to handle and the motor will be not much bigger than a biscuit tin and light enough to lift yourself.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  7. #1232
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Trying to contain the thread drift for Steve and Alex I've started a diesel/electric thread down iin tools/techniques /products
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  8. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    Trying to contain the thread drift for Steve and Alex I've started a diesel/electric thread down iin tools/techniques /products
    Westie, I believe, makes a hybrid diesel electric power plant.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  9. #1234
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    A vote for pulling the head on the Perkins and looking inside. If that looks good, flip her over and check the crank bearings. Then decide if it is worth rebuilding. In the UK there is an outfit that sells spares at good prices; parts4engines They have everything you need. I have worked on several 4-108s and a good one is worth keeping. Fresh water cooling is important too.
    If that looks bad, then a Kubota or Mitsu based engine, I would not go near a common rail diesel in a boat of this type. Ditto hybrid. A few gallons of diesel a year, is going to make zero difference to the planet and pollution from batteries is generally ignored when it is promoted.
    A2
    Last edited by Andrew2; 03-23-2019 at 12:16 PM.

  10. #1235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    A vote for pulling the head on the Perkins and looking inside. If that looks good, flip her over and check the crank bearings. Then decide if it is worth rebuilding. In the UK there is an outfit that sells spares at good prices; parts4engines They have everything you need. I have worked on several 4-108s and a good one is worth keeping. Fresh water cooling is important too.

    If that looks bad, then a Kubota or Mitsu based engine, I would not go near a common rail diesel in a boat of this type. Ditto hybrid. A few gallons of diesel a year, is going to make zero difference to the planet and pollution from batteries is generally ignored when it is promoted.

    A2
    But Andrew, it can be checked tested etc without taking things apart. 🤔
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #1236
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I was told that the 4-108 was used in most all the refer trailers in the US so parts were plentiful. He loved that engine.

    I'm a fan of older diesels without all the electronic controls. The new ones may be reliable but it just seem intuitive that a well designed diesel with mechanical fuel injection will be there when you need it.

  12. #1237
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    But Andrew, it can be checked tested etc without taking things apart. ��
    If not run for a while and unknown history, it is worth a few gaskets to check it out before trying to fire it up. At a minimum I would also have the injectors tested.

  13. #1238
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    She was rotten to the core. The original ballast keel bolts were the consistency of thick, packed mud. The ones that had been replaced were much better although the nuts were 1/2 gone. Once the planks were off the stem just fell off at the forefoot and the stern was not much better.
    Amazingly a lot of the planks were in very usable condition. If she was every re-planked they did the whole boat with copper rivets. There were a few new planks (or at least they were removed and put back) for sure because the rivets were cut off and they were just screwed in. I think the bulk of her planks were original, most have the small tight knots that our cedar has. No real rot in the frame sockets either, well no more than the rest of her centerline but none of the pockets look bad and most are some of the more solid looking parts of her keel. At least on Victoria the boxed oak frames were not rot pockets. Her forefoot and stern were hands down the worst spots on her.

    Ballast keel is up for grabs if someone wants it! Would much rather see it become a boat than go to the scrap yard. We looked at an iron keel for Arabella and were quoted over $30k to get one cast, the lead was no picnic either, just saying.....

    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  14. #1239
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    So is the keel timber suitable to be milled down for re-use or no?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  15. #1240

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I wonder how much that iron keel shortened the life of Victoria.

  16. #1241
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I wonder how much that iron keel shortened the life of Victoria.
    Sounds like she was condemned due to rot in the stem and stern, which is unrelated to the iron. There did look to be iron sickness in some places, but she was a pretty old boat. Do we know how old? 50 years? 70 years?

  17. #1242
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Scrap Steel Recycling Yards are paying $140/ton here in Northern California. That could be $500 toward your engine purchase.

  18. #1243

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Scrap Steel Recycling Yards are paying $140/ton here in Northern California. That could be $500 toward your engine purchase.
    I bet there is someone who will come along shortly and use it as a keel in the actual design it was created for. I would not scrap it.

  19. #1244
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    Sounds like she was condemned due to rot in the stem and stern, which is unrelated to the iron. There did look to be iron sickness in some places, but she was a pretty old boat. Do we know how old? 50 years? 70 years?
    I remember them saying almost 100 year old. Not sure if was on here or one of there videos?
    would be good quality steel from that day too!!

  20. #1245
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    I bet there is someone who will come along shortly and use it as a keel in the actual design it was created for. I would not scrap it.
    Having learned my lesson owning and rebuilding an iron fastened boat, I would use great energy to convince anyone considering the use of an Iron Ballast on a traditional wooden boat to protect their investment and use a lead keel instead.

    You must keep the metals consistent as has been proven endless times. Iron keel must go with Iron/ Steel fasteners, or slap it below a steel hulled or fiberglass hulled boat.

    For the cost of materials, it would be very wasteful and short sighted to build using steel fasteners.

    I'm betting the few people on the planet who want to build an Atkins Wooden Boat understand the real costs and want to protect their investments.

  21. #1246
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I have a steel fastened Ingrid with iron ballast, she's 60 years old and still going strong. Its not for every boat, but there are advantages. Iron fails in a way that is entirely predictable and noticeable. I've seen bronze fasteners look perfect but can be crumbled in your hands. Stainless as well of course. Steel fastenings last about the same time as bronze fastenings, but they do have a bad habit of damaging the wood around them as they fail, which is the main argument against them.

    An iron ballast casting is the strongest possible foundation for a boat. You can balance the boat on the high point of a rock and let the tide go out fully and she won't break her back, very handy for those surprise reefs and poorly trained yard workers.

  22. #1247
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Victoria was built in NY in 1926/27 so she was an old gal.

    Her centerline was all iron bolts including the drifts for the floor timbers, the ceiling was also fastened into the frames with iron. Everything else was copper or bronze so in places like the stern post and stem the big iron centerline bolts, iron drifts, copper nails, silicon bronze bolts from floor to frame were all VERY close to one another, almost touching. Her original iron was all completely shot, the closer to bronze/copper the worse it was. The drifts buried in the center of the keel were in the best shape off all her iron, the ones in the narrows for stem and stern the worst.

    I think her biggest issue though was rot from inside.

    The stern post from the top of the stern knee to the keel was shot. The stern knee made a big shelf inside her and it looks like the rot started there and continued down between the inner and outer stern post.

    The forefoot was also very bad and I think that was largely due to the lack of an anchor locker and there was a big diesel tank there blocking access to the bilge. I think the wet, mud... from the anchor was allowed to sit on the forefoot and any that drained went under the diesel tank on top of the forefoot and seems like it stayed there. The limbers throughout her were totally clogged and she had INCHES of thick moist muck through most of her bilge. The anchor was just piled on a decrepit piece of plywood sitting on top of the floor timbers.


    We have to do some exploring but I am hopeful we can get some usable material from her keel timber, maybe the stern knee, possibly the stem knee and absolutely the tip of the stem (the best looking of them all). The forefoot, inner and outer stern post are totally shot. So is either end of the keel timber but the middle seems solid.

    We saved a bunch of the deck, the majority of her planks (unbelievably), and a lot of her interior. All in all there was a lot of usable material, absolutely enough to get the tender built totally from Victoria and to do a big hunk of our interior, we are psyched about that!!!


    I think if she had better maintenance she could be sailing strong. The iron fasteners did not do her any favors, especially when mixed with the copper and bronze but ultimately it was a dirty bilge, poorly laid out stern knee and a leaky deck that sealed her fate in my opinion.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  23. #1248
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Making some headway on the floors.




    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  24. #1249
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Beautiful work guys. How big could you conceivably make these floors? Would you use bigger stock if you had a bigger boat or is 1/2" about as much as you would want to weld?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  25. #1250
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Those look great!

  26. #1251
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Those look pretty good. With a green patina, they'd look awesome.... Sand them to a uniform finish with some 200 grit, place them in a plastic garbage can, then drink a great deal of beer... a GREAT deal of beer... (don't film this).

  27. #1252
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hey guys-

    I thought you might like this. On Leo's facebook page he posted a question about casting bronze floors. Every second or third response is "You should weld them like the guys at Acorn to Arabella." Nice to be on the other side this time!

    Ah, the mixed blessing of 100,000 subscribers.

    Kenny
    Almost everything about boats involves so much more time and money than one anticipates that rational and accurate planning will deter even starting. Ian McColgin

  28. #1253
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Beautiful work guys. How big could you conceivably make these floors? Would you use bigger stock if you had a bigger boat or is 1/2" about as much as you would want to weld?

    I believe you could easily go thicker you just might need a bigger welder. We were told 300amps for 1/2" bronze but in reality we have been using around 230 amp to tack and 260 amp to weld, 300 was way too high.

    I've done a decent amount of steel stick welding and picking up the MIG and the bronze has been pretty easy, I think the MIG is soooo much easier than stick and the bronze flows really well. I am psyched for all the things that we can do with the bronze and welder as well, mast hardware, rigging, chain plates, knees, brackets..... The list is endless =) Being able to weld the bronze is going to be a huge asset moving forward!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  29. #1254
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by minuteman View Post
    Hey guys-

    I thought you might like this. On Leo's facebook page he posted a question about casting bronze floors. Every second or third response is "You should weld them like the guys at Acorn to Arabella." Nice to be on the other side this time!

    Ah, the mixed blessing of 100,000 subscribers.

    Kenny

    HAHHAHAHA

    We have had a couple folks tell us about that. We looked last night and some of the comments are priceless! Gotta love the guy who said he would not get on Arabella even if it was tied to a dock! ha!

    We get compared to him all the time and often come up short in the comparison. So great to know it goes both ways even if it's just a little bit! haha

    I honestly hope Leo casts them, would be cool to show another process. But if he does fabricate them like we did, it would be validation that a professional followed the path of us amateurs though ;-)

    The 100k followers or so are indeed a blessing and a curse.

    Slow Boat Sailing asked to do an interview with us and then slammed us pretty hard, he views us as a cautionary tale and a path to be avoided. Not a very flattering interview to say the least, thankfully his channel is tiny so it should not lead to a backlash. But yeah, being out there on the internet has it's challenges for sure!

    On the plus side though we just got given 3 HUGE boxes of brand new PPE (glasses, ear plugs, gloves, Tyvek suits...) as well as wire brushes, cutoff wheels, grinding and shaping disks, Ingersoll-Rand rivet gun, files, welding gloves.... from a guy who works for a huge company and when they are done with a multi million dollar job they just toss all the extra stuff they did not use. His wife got a bit tired of him squirreling it all away so he donated a ton of it to us! He gave us enough PPE and grinding disks to last the rest of the build! ha!

    We also got two offers for re-building the Perkins, once we have some more details I will let ya all know but it's looking promising.

    Just have to take the good and bad and roll with the punches =)

    Got 5 floors done and a batch of 7 more is in the works, the pace and batch size are slowly ticking up as we get the process dialed.


    As always, thanks for the comments, insights and guidance!!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  30. #1255
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Nice work.

  31. #1256
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Those floors look great. We talked about stopping by yesterday on our way back from NYC but it was pouring rain and getting late so we just headed straight home. Hopefully we can stop by soon and check out your progress in person.

  32. #1257
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Have you considered replacing the shelf and clamp with bronze now that you can make brackets and knees? Larry did as you know from his book. I like the concept. Lots of extra space created up under the deck beam to frame connections where you could put bookshelves or other storage space. Save weight and the hassle of horsing around those large timbers.....
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  33. #1258
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    HAHHAHAHA


    SBS (name withheld so as not to feed that troll) asked to do an interview with us and then slammed us pretty hard, he views us as a cautionary tale and a path to be avoided. Not a very flattering interview to say the least, thankfully his channel is tiny so it should not lead to a backlash. But yeah, being out there on the internet has it's challenges for sure!
    After I saw SBS's (name withheld so as not to feed that troll) video and comment, I did not understand his logic. He seemed wrapped up in the idea that since your boat is still in frame, that somehow this was tied to competency in sailing.


    There are videos on YouTube about how to gain followers, and one tact is to denigrate other channels, thus pulling the curious to view one's own channel.

    He does not get it period.

    You guys clearly demonstrate time and time again that you are very intelligent, have tremendous energy and the ability to learn, and the fortitude to follow through in the face of tremendous frustration. What further attributes would a world sailor need?

    You will learn to sail, then rack up the hours to be safe. I'd not give that guy's opinions an ounce of further energy.

    (and I'd edit out his name from your first post so as not to support his sorry butt)

  34. #1259
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I agree. You're amateur builders. You are not trained in how to build a boat. You know this. You have done your research, found the right resources and are asking the right questions. Any professional would be jealous of the start you're getting I suspect. You have to do the legwork yourself. It's not being spoon fed to you. You will be much better boat builders than many who come out of a program to learn it. Maybe better than most simply because of the effort you are putting into getting it right. It's ok not to know. As long as you understand enough to know that you dont't know it all and you also know where to go to find out. You guys do.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  35. #1260
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)


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