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Thread: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

  1. #1996
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
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    Between Bourgeoisie and Proletariat - Australia
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    6,196

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve, I installed a new motor recently. Did all my calculations and mocked it up in CAD. When I dropped it in, I only had a centimetre each side of the fly wheel. Enough but bloody close. I hadn't thought of it at all.

    just looking at how your engine logs taper in toward the back. It might be worth a double check while access is easy.

    deck; glassed ply. You'll go with laid I'm sure, but eventually Arabella will have a ply deck sheathed in glass - cause it works and lasts. Laid decks are all well and good if keeping your bronze shinny is your bag. I'd do it now while it's in the shed and you can do a good job. But, if what you really want is to be chasing leaks while anchored in some nook off the coast of Patagonia.......
    It's all fun and games until Darth Vader comes.

  2. #1997
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Near Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    603

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hi Steve,

    My first comment to your thread here, but I am a regualar on your facebook posts and on Youtube.
    It is a great project, and the type of vessel is similar in lines to what I have been building up here in Norway.
    I say it is similar in lines, but the construction is different!
    I would also go for a traditionally laid deck IF you have bolts that secure the sheerstrake to the carlins or you can install a recessed plank just inside the covering board, to take the strain from the caulking, and prevent forcing the boat wider as you caulk.
    I think the scantlings on the timbers you are using will not allow a half-inch recess of such a plank without weakening it substantionally either, so bolts would be preferable.

    You know what there is to chosing the right planking stock for a laid deck, so careful selecton is of great importance.
    Love following your videos, and will try to keep up with you here as well.

    Ole
    Svaap

  3. #1998
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Southern Maine
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    21,879

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Not much action on on this thread.


  4. #1999
    Join Date
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    Southern Maine
    Posts
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Another viddy. Man, they are overbuilding


  5. #2000
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    Somewhere in South Central PA
    Posts
    3,675

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    How is the main mast step going to be fastened to the floors? Right now it looks like it is just notched over the floors.

  6. #2001
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    Westford MA & Milfjörd NH, USA
    Posts
    90

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Palmer View Post
    How is the main mast step going to be fastened to the floors? Right now it looks like it is just notched over the floors.
    I commented on this on the YouTube video but not here, until now. You (Brian) have described it properly, and IMO it's a mistake for A2A to do it that way. There is real estate between the bronze floors to add suitable wood-of-choice to further spread the load and reduce the stress concentration(s). So long as limber holes are added, there should be no harm.

    The bronze floors main purpose to to transfer & balance the load from the (upward) buoyant forces on the hull to the downward force caused by the lead ballast keel. That occurs everywhere along the length of the hull except for the small overhangs in the bow and stern. The mast adds downward force in a similar manner to the lead ballast, and similarly the shroud loads coupled to the chainplates provide an additional upward force into the frames --- much like the buoyant forces. BUT the up- and down-loads occur in a distributed manner through many frames and many keel bolts. The mast, on the other hand, sits atop the step. The step, as designed presently, does spread the load but then it abruptly rides atop the floor transverse braces. That's a problem waiting to happen, and it's wholly avoidable: use the space between floors to fill with wood to more smoothly distribute the compression load AND to provide fore-aft-stability to the transverse floors.

    I'll add that this is an easy thing to add now. To fix it later, when it's needed, costly and aggravating. IMO, HTH.

  7. #2002
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    Feb 2002
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    Shubenacadie NS
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    5,303

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Would a simple narrow blocking between the floors, say 6" wide along the CL of the underside of the mast step do the job do you think xkdrolt? I don't think it needs to be the full width of the step, just a few inches along the middle to resist compression and help provide more support than that narrow top edge of each floor, while eliminating any chance of wracking movement of the frames under the pressure of the mast.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  8. #2003
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
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    Westford MA & Milfjörd NH, USA
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    90

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Would a simple narrow blocking between the floors, say 6" wide along the CL of the underside of the mast step do the job ... ?
    I'm sure that would help, but if room allows I would still make it as wide as possible while allowing for limber holes.

  9. #2004
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    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    @ 18:20, Mention is made of the mast step staying dry, water will not come up that high.
    It is sweet water ,(rain) dripping down from canvas mast boots or through mast checks that may get in there , not saewater splashing around.
    I've seen it dozens of times.
    @14:18, When Alex mentions Atkin puts the mast step on the keel...wtf ! I'm shocked .
    I'm not quite following what xdrolt is trying to say. You think they should fill in the step with solid wood to the keel?

    Are you going to make the mast tenon LONG !!!? 2 inches deep is dangerous for an ocean basher, especially a gaffer with loose rigging. God forbit she ever gets knocked off the top of a giant wave, the rig can stretch a few inches and the mast can escape a shallow notch. In fact, I make the notch in steps go all the way through if I can.

  10. #2005
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    UK. Cornwall, Suffolk.
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    8,449

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    A bolt through the mast (somewhere) to keep the foot in its step would do the job of keeping it down no?

  11. #2006
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    Mukilteo, WA
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    3,506

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    The main mast step on my Ingrid is sitting on top of the floors and does not reach the keel. I believe this is normal. All wood construction in my case.

  12. #2007
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    seattle
    Posts
    118

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Seems to me that a bronze angle frame tabbed to the floors to cradle the wood step would work well. As far as I can tell, all the wood between the slots is just taking up space. My boat has wood floors and a wood step resting on the floors; the floors are cut away at the step; not an ideal arrangement but typical. I've always thought that a bronze weldment for the step and floors in that area would be superb. I seem to remember an S&S locally that was repaired in that manner.

  13. #2008
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Granby, Massachusetts
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    547

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Sorry I have been MIA here for a while.

    In all honesty, I got super demoralized with the thread when the older pictures on the thread went poof. A big part of posting here is to add another level of documentation to join the videos and other social media posts. Without pictures that documentation is less than helpful.

    But, you all talking about the mast step in the video made me realize that maybe the videos could supply the images and so long as a video is linked anyone in the future could watch the video and follow the commentary here.

    YouTube comments are kind of like that but more Mad Max style than what I think people trying to learn would find useful.


    Atkin did indeed spec the main mast to sit on what looks like a tiny metal mast step, between the floors, directly on the forefoot. That is also how Victoria was set up, her bronze step was directly on her keel.

    The mast step will get bolted down and more surface area added to the floors at some point in the future.

    Once the top of the mast step gets shaped to meet the rake of the mast we will finish it all up. I'll likely weld up a few 90* bronze brackets that will get bolted to the vertical plates on the bronze floors and I will drill down through the mast step in probably 2 places and bolt the step to the flange that the 90* bracket makes.

    So the mast step will notch over the vertical plate and sit on a bronze shelf bolted to the plate and a bolt will go through that bracket and the mast step.

    First I want to see how the top turns out, I might remove some meat from the bottom if we don't carve much into it, or take it from the top. That might change the location of the bracket support and will absolutely change the length of bolt needed to join step to bracket. Hence leaving it unfinished for now.

    I probably should have articulated that better in the video but almost anytime we have tried to explain some future thing, we make more issues than we solve. haha

    Bruce, the point about the long tenon is taken! I don't see any reason we can't make a substantial one. Both mast steps are plenty deep enough for it.

    This Friday is the mizzen step I believe. It just spans two floors since it's such a smaller sail/stick and is above all the massive deadwood. It also notches over the floors and is carved from one big hunk of white oak. It almost looks like a musical instrument body after it was carved to fit the curves of the floors.

    I'm also chugging along on making laminated bulkhead panels. They are essentially 3 ply plywood, glued with epoxy (Thanks Total Boat) They are made from oak and cedar. Some are oak, cedar, oak and some are oak, cedar, cedar and some all cedar. All cores are cedar and faces that will be lived with and subjected to bumps and scrapes will be oak. Inside lockers, the head... will be cedar to help keep the weight down.

    Alix has been making progress on re-sizing and truing Victoria's mast to become Arabella's mizzen mast. It appears to be tight grained fir and seems to be in spectacular shape so far.

    As you can see we are a little ahead of the videos and are into some fun stuff!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  14. #2009
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Merrimack NH
    Posts
    673

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve - thanks for continuing to post here. I agree the loss of pictures is frustrating, but I think your observation on the YouTube linkage is good. The only other solution I could make is if you host your own pictures (on your own domain) you can link them out to discussions like this. Tons of work to go back and fix, though (just ask Jim Ledger!)

    regarding the maststep - good luck navigating all the comments - both on YouTube and here. I'm sure you'll read too many and hopefully be able to parse the good advice from noise. I know you've been dealing with that this whole project!
    Last edited by essaunders; 03-17-2021 at 08:51 AM.

  15. #2010
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
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    23,376

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Sorry I have been MIA here for a while.

    In all honesty, I got super demoralized with the thread when the older pictures on the thread went poof. A big part of posting here is to add another level of documentation to join the videos and other social media posts. Without pictures that documentation is less than helpful.

    But, you all talking about the mast step in the video made me realize that maybe the videos could supply the images and so long as a video is linked anyone in the future could watch the video and follow the commentary here.

    YouTube comments are kind of like that but more Mad Max style than what I think people trying to learn would find useful.


    Atkin did indeed spec the main mast to sit on what looks like a tiny metal mast step, between the floors, directly on the forefoot. That is also how Victoria was set up, her bronze step was directly on her keel.

    The mast step will get bolted down and more surface area added to the floors at some point in the future.

    Once the top of the mast step gets shaped to meet the rake of the mast we will finish it all up. I'll likely weld up a few 90* bronze brackets that will get bolted to the vertical plates on the bronze floors and I will drill down through the mast step in probably 2 places and bolt the step to the flange that the 90* bracket makes.

    So the mast step will notch over the vertical plate and sit on a bronze shelf bolted to the plate and a bolt will go through that bracket and the mast step.

    First I want to see how the top turns out, I might remove some meat from the bottom if we don't carve much into it, or take it from the top. That might change the location of the bracket support and will absolutely change the length of bolt needed to join step to bracket. Hence leaving it unfinished for now.

    I probably should have articulated that better in the video but almost anytime we have tried to explain some future thing, we make more issues than we solve. haha

    Bruce, the point about the long tenon is taken! I don't see any reason we can't make a substantial one. Both mast steps are plenty deep enough for it.

    This Friday is the mizzen step I believe. It just spans two floors since it's such a smaller sail/stick and is above all the massive deadwood. It also notches over the floors and is carved from one big hunk of white oak. It almost looks like a musical instrument body after it was carved to fit the curves of the floors.

    I'm also chugging along on making laminated bulkhead panels. They are essentially 3 ply plywood, glued with epoxy (Thanks Total Boat) They are made from oak and cedar. Some are oak, cedar, oak and some are oak, cedar, cedar and some all cedar. All cores are cedar and faces that will be lived with and subjected to bumps and scrapes will be oak. Inside lockers, the head... will be cedar to help keep the weight down.

    Alix has been making progress on re-sizing and truing Victoria's mast to become Arabella's mizzen mast. It appears to be tight grained fir and seems to be in spectacular shape so far.

    As you can see we are a little ahead of the videos and are into some fun stuff!
    I enjoy updates on the gram when I’m posting doodles. She is looking amaze-balls! Just, absolutely lovely. Keep grinding!

  16. #2011
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
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    20,342

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hey Chaps, I see on youtube and FB the mizzen mast being oddly shaped below decks.
    I want you to know that the ONLY broken spar I ever had on Woodwind was the mizze, BELOW the deck. I mentioned it quickly on FB and YT , but I'll go into more regular speech here.
    I was using the mizzen boom to pull off the rudder, something I do every decade or so.
    I have these "keeper" bolcks of wood that hold the rudder down but also fair the gaps between the rudder and stern post. They sort of dissapear when painted.
    Yup, I neglected to remove one of my own little blockies and was winching the chit outta the line to pop the rudder free.
    It's 200 ish pounds and sometimes in gets a fair piece of tension before it "pops" up an inch.
    well, the mizzen is bending aft a wee bit, the forward shrouds are getting tight...the ridder is not popping.
    I'm like ...wtf.
    of course I kick my dumb self eventually and knock the stopper out with a firm hammer blow (even if they break, they get glued back in the same spot)
    rudder comes off for a check up..goes back on, congradulate myself and carry on.
    Of course later , beating in the ocean waves, I see the effin mizzen mast is wagging around a bit.
    Look below, there is a 3 'crack from the step to just below the partner, flexing open 3/4 of an inch.
    easy enough fix and nothing was lost
    You may think well that will never happen to us cuz we would always release the keepers, and you probably will
    but these kinds of CRAZY strains can happen out in the world.
    Running aground and being towed off a sandbar by a line from UP the mast ,which is standard practice in the Caribbean,can make the same tension.
    I built Woodwinds mizzen a bit under spec, thinking it did not need Paul Johnson Overkill...like her 8 1/2 inch main mast.I waz rong.



    oh, Also, I REALLY wish you would reconsider that bald mainsl. Putting a top up n down is much safer and easier than reefing the main.
    bruce

  17. #2012
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Southern Maine
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    21,879

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    I thought it looked weak too. Since it was originally designed to be deck stepped, I'd add some blocking to the mast at deck level, so it can be partially deck stepped or the deck is a fail safe method of holding the mizz up.

  18. #2013
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Granby, Massachusetts
    Posts
    547

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hey Bruce,

    Thanks for sharing that tale!

    There is no going back now, what is done is done. But good to know it will be something to be a bit more careful with.

    I wonder if it would be pertinent to block the mizzen at deck really well, I mean like super well, so any meaningful flexing stops there and the portion below deck just acts as a compression post. With the sawn locust deck beams and oak root knees, I think the deck framing can safely chip in on the support if that would help.

    I am sure there will be at least one thing we regret doing, maybe tapering the mizzen below decks will be one of them.

    8 1/2" main. Damn, Atkin only specs a 7" main for the Ingrid.

    The rig is still undecided and that bridge will hopefully get crossed this coming winter, seems like a great winter project.
    Before COVID we had an offer from R+W Rope and Rigging to help us do all the standing rigging and an offer from Harrold Burnham to help us cut and sew the sails. Before any work happens we will sit down with (hopefully if the offers still stand) R+W, Harrold and a few others and get suggestions for the rig and possible modern advances to consider.

    It was drawn in 1959 and a couple things have changed since then. For example, I am positive we are not going to use cotton sails or a silk balloon jib! haha

    I'm happy to hear any and all suggestions for the gaff rig and how we should set it up.

    We have winches to place that are not on the plans as well as deciding on hanked verse roller furler, wire standing verse modern synthetics, I'm told again and again to run all lines to the cockpit but the rigger in me (rock and tree climbing) shivers at the thought of all those lines and leads needed to make that happen. Top sails could be added, size of the jib increased....
    Almost every day someone makes a suggestion, but they usually sail MUCH different boats. I'd love to hear insights and suggestions from folks who have miles on boats similar to the Ingrid.

    So at this point all options are options so long as it works for the mizzen stick since that is the only spar that has been shaped.

    The plan is still to glue the main out of the spruce my Great Grandpa planted in the front yard. We recently brought that lumber up from the wood yard to finishing it's seasoning under a better tarp by the boat house. That should be a fun glue-up when the time comes! So close to a blank slate there as well.

    Interior and systems are coming down the pipeline soon as well.

    We make the two oak shutter planks tomorrow and then it's just 3 planks on port and we are done planking for now. I say for now because the top 3 planks will be missing on starboard. The staging is horribly in the way and having those 3 planks missing won't cause us any strife for a long time. Once we are ready to close the deck we will cut back the staging and put those last 3 planks on.

    So hoping to dive into the interior by August at the latest.

    So far the galley stove (Dickerson Marine, Mediterranean) diesel heater (Dickerson Marine Newport) and head (Air Head) have been ordered. We also have the shipmate woodstove and the bronze and brass fittings from Victoria, as well as her mahogany frame and panel doors. Other than that, the interior and systems are pretty much a blank slate. I'd love to hear about the things people love/hate/wish they had for a live aboard.

    As always, thanks for all the insight and knowledge!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  19. #2014
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
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    20,342

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Lines run to the cocpit on this boat, even bermudian rig..would be daft.
    so put me down as NOT almost everyone.
    my fisrt two sets of sails were cotton vivatex, but that was economy, not stubborness or tradition.
    b

  20. #2015
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    529

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Hi,

    I agree. Don't run lines aft.

    If I was building our masts again, I'd probably do a birdsmouth layup. If you decided to laminate up your mast we do have a bunch of threaded rod / nuts for clamps we hopefully won't need in the future. If someone is heading from Eastern Ontario down your way we could pass them along.

    Cheers,
    Mark

  21. #2016
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Albuquerque
    Posts
    24

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve,
    I don’t know if you have pitched the bilge yet, and the videos haven’t said much about how you plan to melt and move the asphalt.

    In your travels to the Southwest you may have noted a lot of flat-roofed houses. The roofing crews that replace these roofs have a little trailer that melts and pumps tar. Open a valve, and molten asphalt spews from a pipe at the end of the hose. Usually propane fo heat and a Briggs or similar running the pump.

    Such are probably far less common in New England. But I bet warehouses and similar buildings still have flat roofs there, so there must be a few of these trailers around.

    You might be able to rent one from an equipment rental operator, or locate a helpful roofing company. It would take a lot of the danger and nastiness out of whatever I can imagine as an improvised way of melting and transporting molten asphalt into the bilge.

  22. #2017
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    21,879

    Default Re: Building Arabella (An Atkin Ingrid)

    Steve talks to John Harris (Chesapeake Light Craft).

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...49#post6542949

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