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Thread: British Politics Post Brexit

  1. #71
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    The judgement is interesting in several ways.

    On the main issue, there was an 8 - 3 split which had not been expected. The betting was on a unaminous verdict requiring Parliament to legislate in favour of allowing Brexit.

    The judgement did not spell out how the legislation should be framed, again against expectations. Their Lordships decided to leave this can of worms to the politicians.

    The judement was unaminous in deciding that the Devolved Administrations had no power of veto over UK matters which are reserved solely to Westminster. The Scots will be unhappy with that.

    Now we just have to wait and see what sort of Bill the Government proposes and enjoy the inevitable shenagigins that will result.

    Nick

  2. #72
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    The real problem here is not trade, like Nissan and Airbus, but the Brussels Politicos who fear that their precious project will be at risk if UK gets out. Nobody objects to good trade deals, as was originally sold to the populace, but they do object to the 'ever closer' bit. The introduction of the Euro was designed to cause a crisis, except that it was a far bigger one than they expected. So, rather than bring everybody closer (to a federal gov), it has had the opposite effect.
    Bearing in mind that the pols have not had an accurate forcast in recent élections.... around 70% of the French do not think the EU is working for them. Whether this will reflect on votes for the FN and Le Pen remains to be seen. We could be surprised.
    The immigration issue is viewed as not being handled well. Friends in Italy say it is a real problem, with no answer. Expect a swing to the right on this. While we all know that this is not something EU Policy can do much about, the free movement once the immigrants get a foothold is naturally an issue.

    You might gather that I am not an EU fan. True, but I am a fan of the idea of free trade and it should have stopped there, not the unworkable mess that the mainly unelected socialist (career) politicians have foisted on us.

    Rant over Need to cook dinner, it's my turn.

    Edit: I was writing this before several of the last posts.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Good point. But then, as far as I know, there is no restriction on a country applying to join again after leaving. That would be amusing
    The terms might be considered usery...

  4. #74
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    The introduction of the Euro was designed to cause a crisis, except that it was a far bigger one than they expected.
    That is a weird point of view. Can you substantiate it?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #75
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    [...] But then, as far as I know, there is no restriction on a country applying to join again after leaving. That would be amusing
    Article 50 Nr. 5:

    5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.


    Article 49:

    Any European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 and is committed to promoting them may apply to become a member of the Union. The European Parliament and national Parliaments shall be notified of this application. The applicant State shall address its application to the Council, which shall act unanimously after consulting the Commission and after receiving the consent of the European Parliament, which shall act by a majority of its component members. The conditions of eligibility agreed upon by the European Council shall be taken into account.


    Yes, no restriction, but also no privileged position.
    Last edited by heimfried; 01-24-2017 at 02:47 PM.
    Gruß, Günter

  6. #76
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Hmm…..Trident anyone?
    May refusing to answer a question, and likely misleading parliament by omission.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    I find it somewhat amusing that Theresa May could appeal the decision with the ECJ, seeing it was the ECJ that over ruled her stance when she was Home Office Queen. She has already made it clear that a hard exit is better than a bad deal, and she fought tooth and nail (with tax payers money) fighting an undefendable position which she later lost. Her interests , in my experience, have very little to do with the average British citizen. She did a remarkable version of "Teflon Tony" when avoiding questions about a failed missile test on the TV, and misled parliment about that when voting for the renewal of Trident. Guess i have to be carefull what i say.....but not exactly trustworthy....teflon Theresa has a certain ring to it.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is a weird point of view. Can you substantiate it?
    Only from what I have read over a few years. The original movers knew that that euro would create the imbalance between the North and South and would eventialy cause the Financial problems that that they thought would help them bind the countries together in an federal europe. Seems they underestimated the disaster they created, with Greece spiralling down after grabbing much off the teat. Most of the Med lot thought that low interest was a road to a better life. Many of them are now homeless, or close. Several friends in Portugal are close to forclosure.
    The sudden lowering of interest rates on the entry to the EU, fueled a property boom. Well know in Spain, but also happened in Portugal.
    It was part of the EU bribery to get everybody 'on side' I know that sounds a bit partisan, but just look at the number of projects over the poorer countries that where financed with out any control on how they were run. Airports in Spain, bridges in Greece. Motorways in Italy. It goes on..

    I really have to get cooking now.
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  9. #79
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    The latest on Trident is:
    former nuclear submarine commander and Ulster Unionist Party assembly member, Steve Aiken, told Today that any fault "would have been sorted out"."There is a convention that we don't talk about the deterrent... because that is the nature of the deterrent - it is about the security of this nation and I would fully support the prime minister in avoiding those questions," he said.
    and
    CNN quoted an unnamed US defence official on Monday as saying the unarmed II D5 missile - fired from HMS Vengeance off the coast of Florida - did deviate from its intended trajectory as part of an automatic self-destruct sequence.
    <snip>
    Former defence minister Lord West told MPs he had been led to believe there had been a "minor hiccough" with the missile's automated communications system and it had been prematurely ditched into the ocean as a precaution.
    <snip>
    Appearing before the committee, Lord West said it sounded like the problem occurred once the missile was airborne and the Royal Navy could not be held responsible.

    "The submarine was put in the right position and was in the right mode - everything was done correctly in terms of the correct firing checks.
    "The missile fired properly and went up into the air... From everything that is said, it was an issue with telemetry within that missile which, if you are not 100% certain, you do not even take a risk. That is the missile itself. That is an American issue."
    from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38735202
    One should remember that tests are carried out to test a system, to find out if anything might go wrong, identify problems and fix them, so even a failed missile is a good test.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #80
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I find it somewhat amusing that Theresa May could appeal the decision with the ECJ, [...]
    Not the ruling of the Supreme Court of today. The European Court will not judge on british constitutional law.

    But the question if the triggering of article 50 is revocable, is a matter of european law and would be decided by the ECJ.
    Gruß, Günter

  11. #81
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

    Rather surprised there is no comment on it.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    It depresses me and Corbyn is a numbnut.

    Will that do?
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    It depresses me and Corbyn is a numbnut.

    Will that do?

    I admire Jeremy Corbyn (apart from his preposterous Leninism). He doesn't change his beliefs because of what the editorialists say, what the Tories say, what the quisling Blairites say. For all of the predictions of his demise, which began the moment he was named party leader, he's outlasted Blairite insurgencies, the anti-Semitism row, David Cameron, the Brexit plebiscite, and the Article 50 vote. He may well outlast Theresa May, if she botches these negotiations.

    If the Tories ever had a leader with the backbone Corbyn has shown, the UK never would have had Brexit in the first place.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    I admire Jeremy Corbyn (apart from his preposterous Leninism). He doesn't change his beliefs because of what the editorialists say, what the Tories say, what the quisling Blairites say. For all of the predictions of his demise, which began the moment he was named party leader, he's outlasted Blairite insurgencies, the anti-Semitism row, David Cameron, the Brexit plebiscite, and the Article 50 vote. He may well outlast Theresa May, if she botches these negotiations.

    If the Tories ever had a leader with the backbone Corbyn has shown, the UK never would have had Brexit in the first place.
    My problem with Jeremy is he has not updated his thinking for about 40 years. That and a propensity for running off at the mouth before familiarising himself with the relevant facts.
    The other problem is that he does not have the personality of a leader that can win an election. He simply has not got it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #85
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

    Rather surprised there is no comment on it.
    It was only the formal second reading of the Bill. The fun comes at the Committee and Report stages of the proceedings where amendments to the Bill are considered prior to the Third reading in the Commons before it goes to the "Other Place" aka the House of Lords. Once their Lordships have finished mangling it it will return to the Commons for them to unmangle. Repeat this process thrice then the Speaker can forward the version agreed by the Commons to Her Majesty for engrossment.

    Nick

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    A rather significant vote has occurred today, has it not?

    Rather surprised there is no comment on it.
    The really interesting debate is the one about whether constituency MPs listen to the views of their constituents and represent them, or meekly obey the 6 month plus old opinion of people who were lied to.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #87
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    [...]
    The other problem is that he does not have the personality of a leader that can win an election. He simply has not got it.
    As it seems to me, he has not a little bit of interest, to lead. His view of politics is just to oppose and tell the tories, they are wrong and keep the left ideas "clean".

    But to help the people really, which rely on labour, means try to become PM, then do real politics instead of talk about politics, and decide things. Sometimes this decisions will be wrong, but someone should do it.

    Mr. Corbyn take instead care to the holy graile of leftism.

    (Sorry for my try in poor English.)
    Last edited by heimfried; 02-02-2017 at 05:51 PM.
    Gruß, Günter

  18. #88
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by heimfried View Post
    As it seems to me, he has not a little bit of interest, to lead. His view of politics is just to oppose and tell the tories, they are wrong and keep the left ideas "clean".

    But to help the people really, which rely on labour, means try to become PM do real politics instead of talk about politics, and decide things. Sometimes this decisions will be wrong, but someone should do it.

    Mr. Corbyn take instead care to the holy graile of leftism.

    (Sorry for my try in poor English.)
    Don't apologise, your message shone through.
    I on the other hand tried to learn German, and failed miserably, so you are well ahead.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #89
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Interesting article. I did not know that voting data was collated at the ward level.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
    Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum

    Personally, I dislike the tone of the article. It seems to infer that the elderly white uneducated working class "Deplorables" were to blame for Brexit. Oh Dear.

    Nick

  20. #90
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    I saw that article this morning too. And yes, the tone got fairly snide, I agree.

    That said, the scatter plot diagrams of actual BREXIT vote behaviour is pretty definitive. Those who voted to leave were disproportionately older, fairly uneducated, and white. Those who voted to remain were disproportionately younger, more educated, and multi-ethnic.

    As is true with certain brands of populist conservatism in Canada and America, the demographic represented by the "Leave" voters is shrinking, and in even 10 years would not have been large enough to carry the vote.
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  21. #91
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by NickW View Post
    Interesting article. I did not know that voting data was collated at the ward level.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034
    Local voting figures shed new light on EU referendum

    Personally, I dislike the tone of the article. It seems to infer that the elderly white uneducated working class "Deplorables" were to blame for Brexit. Oh Dear.

    Nick
    Deplorables is your word not the Beebs, poorly educated (know nothings) is more appropriate. Mind you with the racist hate speech still being reported I'll bet that there is a correlation between Leave votes and the truly deplorable.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #92
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Deplorables is your word not the Beebs, poorly educated (know nothings) is more appropriate. Mind you with the racist hate speech still being reported I'll bet that there is a correlation between Leave votes and the truly deplorable.
    Which is why I put it in quotation marks. As for poorly educated, if you mean non graduate then I must disagree. I have known plenty of tradesmen whose understanding of the world is considerably better than many of today's so called graduates, to say nothing of their standard of literacy and numeracy.

    Nick

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by NickW View Post
    Which is why I put it in quotation marks. As for poorly educated, if you mean non graduate then I must disagree. I have known plenty of tradesmen whose understanding of the world is considerably better than many of today's so called graduates, to say nothing of their standard of literacy and numeracy.

    Nick
    Just so. Time served tradesmen attend college, used to be City and Guilds or Higher National Diploma. The craft apprentice intake still do block release at college here at Barrow. By poorly educated I mean people who have failed to be educated and who fail to add anything to their knowledge base. For example those who did not listen to reports from the Office of National Statistics that stated that immigrants contribute more, and draw down less than the British borne Brits. People like the unemployed of Wisbech who won't do hard miserable farm work but complain about Eastern Europeans taking their jobs.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #94
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    I have to wonder how many of the group Nick refers to as poorly educated will have worked out that the dodgy cigarettes they currently get from a contact with a European connection may become unavailable with tighter border checks.I also wonder quite how much of the vaunted clean break will materialise,given that the PM seems to expect access to the single market and freedom for European economic migrants to remain.The pick and mix approach may be politically expedient but its hardly likely to deliver what was on offer.

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A friend of mine , originally from NZ and Australia who now lives in France says a lot of Brits he knows are upset that they will now have return to the UK from Europe, some 3 million of them. Many have bought housing in European countries.
    Why on earth would they have to return? Is a Trump-like repatriation on the horizon in liberal and enlightened Europe? Perish the thought...

  26. #96
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Why on earth would they have to return? Is a Trump-like repatriation on the horizon in liberal and enlightened Europe? Perish the thought...
    Too early to say, but they may have to apply for visas.
    What happens to EU citizens living in the UK?

    The government has declined to give a firm guarantee about the status of EU nationals currently living in the UK, saying this is not possible without a reciprocal pledge from other EU members about the millions of British nationals living on the continent. EU nationals with a right to permanent residence, which is granted after they have lived in the UK for five years, will be be able to stay, the chief civil servant at the Home Office has said. The rights of other EU nationals would be subject to negotiations on Brexit and the "will of Parliament", he added.
    What happens to UK citizens working in the EU?

    A lot depends on the kind of deal the UK agrees with the EU. If it remains within the single market, it would almost certainly retain free movement rights, allowing UK citizens to work in the EU and vice versa. If the government opted to impose work permit restrictions, then other countries could reciprocate, meaning Britons would have to apply for visas to work.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    The unamended Brexit bill has passed the Commons by 494 votes to 122.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38902484

    It now goes to the Lords where the fun and games will start on 20th February.

    Nick

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Sometimes there is a need for old guys to tell what is really on the table.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-john-major-theresa-may-misleading-british-people-a7602651.html

    Because labour is paralysed, old torys (Major, Heseltine) have to play the role of opposition as it seems to me.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...oach-to-brexit
    Last edited by heimfried; 02-27-2017 at 01:50 PM.
    Gruß, Günter

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    I didn't expect any better ideas from the Leavers, but the opinions of the Remainers are to call at least "interesting".

    In which way should the EU work?

    "Other results show that 82 per cent of Leave voters want EU migrants to be treated in the same way as non-EU migrants and 58 per cent of Remain voters agree.

    In addition to this, 51 per cent of Remain voters do not believe EU migrants should claim any welfare benefits, a notion that 77 per cent of Leave voters agree with."

    "Professor John Curtice, who wrote the report, said the results of the survey are a clear reflection of the “pick-and-mix attitude” of the electorate. [...]
    “Many Remain voters would like to see an end to the less popular parts of Britain’s current membership of the EU, while many Leave voters would like to retain the seemingly more desirable parts, such as free trade, cheap mobile phone calls, and clean beaches,”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7641541.html
    Gruß, Günter

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by heimfried View Post
    "Professor John Curtice, who wrote the report, said the results of the survey are a clear reflection of the “pick-and-mix attitude” of the electorate. [...]
    “Many Remain voters would like to see an end to the less popular parts of Britain’s current membership of the EU, while many Leave voters would like to retain the seemingly more desirable parts, such as free trade, cheap mobile phone calls, and clean beaches,”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7641541.html
    Here is the report
    Key findings

    • While 65% are sceptical about the EU, and want it to have less power, only 30% support Britain’s withdrawal from the EU.
    • Nearly half agree that being a member of the EU is ‘undermining Britain’s distinctive identity’ but only around a quarter think Britain’s economy would be better off if we left the EU.
    • Amongst those who do think Britain’s economy would be better off if we left the EU, 72% support withdrawing. In contrast, amongst those who believe the economy would be worse off, just 6% support leaving.
    http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-r...cepticism.aspx
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    I have no stake in this but my gut feelings are who actually won WW2 and why should Brits be inflicted with European civil servants based in Brussels.

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by bob winter View Post
    I have no stake in this but my gut feelings are who actually won WW2 and why should Brits be inflicted with European civil servants based in Brussels.
    Because on balance, it has been good for Britain, both economically, and for quality of life and safety in the workplace.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #103
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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Your election is beginning to sound more interesting than first thought. Gone seemingly are May's '100 seat majority' and the 'best beard in parliament' might give her a run for her money. It seems that Brexit is a bi-partisan affair, so it's other factors in play.
    Later today there's a programme on the election here, but what do Brit. forum protagonists say?

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    London incident should favour May.

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    Default Re: British Politics Post Brexit

    Cannot see that making any difference at all.


    Did hear the coming vote described as
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