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Thread: Storer Sailing Canoe

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Not much water in the bottom of the boat. Bid success and huge well done to Viola!


  2. #72
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    Default

    Very clever design. Sure looks like a fun little boat.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I too like the look of this design, having just taken my Macgreggor out of sailing service as not worth the recovery problems. It's only taken me 15 years to realise this…..
    I sail in a club with a lot of Lasers, this might give them a run for their money.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    having just taken my Macgreggor out of sailing service as not worth the recovery problems. It's only taken me 15 years to realise this…..
    Hi skuthorp, having just come in from the boat shed where I am adding a rig to my 12' x30" canoe I would be interested in you explaining your 'recovery problems'.

    Tink

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I have a decked 15'.6" Macgreggor with a single balanced lug sail and a single leeboard. As I was warned in the beginning they are very tender and without a deal of ballast quite difficult single handed. My cockpit is 13" longer than the plans more easily to accommodate two. There have been whole threads dedicated to capsize recovery as flooded the craft is inherently unstable, difficult to re-enter and bail and in my opinion is unsafe as a a sailboat. And that's not in any seaway. I am going to experiment with a smaller, lighter lateen rig however. Another forum member uses outriggers but that really defeats the purpose. I call the Mac my compromise boat, I row,sail, paddle and use her in small surf, but once flooded it's a problem.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Thanks for the reply skuthorp, I will look out the threads you mention. I am only planning 30 sq ft and sailing on sheltered waters. I have some ideas about recovery but hear your concerns.

    Like many above I love this new Storer canoe. I have been involved in designing professionally for many years and I appreciate how difficult it is to design something which with hind sight looks so simple.


    Tink

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    The storer canoe is a different kettle of fish, and my sailng is mostly on a large, shallow open bay facing the weather quarter.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Thanks for the reply skuthorp, I will look out the threads you mention. I am only planning 30 sq ft and sailing on sheltered waters. I have some ideas about recovery but hear your concerns.

    Like many above I love this new Storer canoe. I have been involved in designing professionally for many years and I appreciate how difficult it is to design something which with hind sight looks so simple.


    Tink

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/
    That really is Mik's genius. He takes a bit of his 'less is more' approach from Bolger. But he also mixes in a wide range of influences to make his boats ever-so-much more. His designs are, in large part, 'simple'. But no simpler than they should be. And not to the detriment of performing well. And absolutely no more complex than they need to be. I love my GIS - which is another example of his hitting the sweet spot.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Any thoughts on a thwartships sliding plank seat for hiking out?
    Jay
    Images for sliding seat international canoe

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I would keep it simple, if you want thrills and spills buy an IC, the one designs can be picked up cheaply. Adding a seat only increases stress, on the boat and you. If you have the seat there is then a case for enclosed cockpit ........

    Tink

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    A hiking plank is not part of the design parameters nor is it where Michael Storer wants to go with this design.

    The idea is really a to keep it all very simple. This boat is wider than a typical sailing canoe (50/50 sailing canoes tend to be appr. 80 cm wide or so whereas the Viola 14 canoe is 100cm wide over the outside of the plywood skin / 106 cm wide or so over the gunnels). This boat was designed as a "sit-on" rather than a "sit-in" canoe but hiked from the side buoyancy tanks.

    Adding a hiking plank will mean starting an arms race (i.e. plank means larger sail, which increases stress which means that reinforcements/stays/etc. are necessary making the boat heavier). Further only a couple of sailors will be able to sail such boat, whilst in the current form it is a fun and fast boat that is within the sailing capabilities of a very large audience.

    Michael is looking into a second larger rig for this boat to accommodate heavier sailors, thus making for an interesting playful boat for many.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Good reasoning to keep it simple! Just playing Devil's advocate.
    Jay

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Perhaps beside the overall point, but I noticed that the sail seems to have 2 double D rings and short straps holding the sail to the mast.

    My question is how does that work? Do double D ring buckles have to have strain on them to stay tight? I tried straps and plastic snap together buckles of the sort that you see on backpacking gear - one end sewn to the buckle, the other looped back on itself to adjust the strap. It turned out that it fell apart without strain keeping it tight. If the webbing isn't in line with the buckle the strap comes loose.

    So, how about the D rings?

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Nice boat and the simplicity is great! But a VJ-style hiking plank could be easily added for those of us who dwell in windy places. Not to commence an arms race but to allow the boat to be used through our windy summer season. A bit of track fastened to each gunwhale and sliding brackets.



    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 09-29-2016 at 04:20 PM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    There is a patch of velcro at the loose end of the tape after the D ring that ensures that the D-ring remains tight if there is no tension on it (yes, you otherwise would indeed risk the D-ring getting loose).

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Koos, built an Artemis sailing canoe whIch uses the same Storer rig. As an experienced Int Moth sailor and saIling Artemis which is much narrower, he was happy to add a sImple hiking plank.


  17. #87
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Good reasoning to keep it simple! Just playing Devil's advocate.
    Jay
    I thought it was a great question - which opens the way to exploring the details and the design parameters involved. And remind everyone of that old 'arms race' dynamic.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Thank you, Joost. Just what I needed to know. Somehow the velcro idea eluded me.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Any word if the plans are available for this canoe yet?
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by SailRat View Post
    Any word if the plans are available for this canoe yet?
    Not yet. Should be soonish.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Whilst the plans are being written and winter has arrived here in the Netherlands, a couple of more photos:

    Last edited by Joost Engelen; 12-03-2016 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Uploading the picture posed to be problematic!

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe


  23. #93
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe


  24. #94
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe


  25. #95
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Thats a nice detail of your outhaul purchase! Is that a webbing/velcro loop at the tack?

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Thats a nice detail of your outhaul purchase! Is that a webbing/velcro loop at the tack?
    Looks like a soft shackle with a bobble or just a strop with bobble

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I was eager to rig the boat in the shortest time possible (it really only takes a few minutes). The boom is therefore fully rigged and all one does is putting the boom on the boom pin gooseneck, attaching the kicker and putting the hook on the aft end of the boom in the clew.

    The hook is held to the boom by a loop of 3mm spectra fitted through a rope stopper. This loop is cow hitched around the rope stopper. If the length of the loop is correct, it will be quite difficult to undue the cow hitch but you can get if off if you want it to.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Rigged a quick example and the photo hopefully shows better what is going on.


  29. #99
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Just checking to see if the plans are available yet for the sailing canoe?
    "Men go back to the mountains, as they go back to sailing ships at sea, because in the mountains and on the sea they must face up. by Henry David Thoreau

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Not yet.

    The boat is undergoing further testing. I have sailed her once now with a larger 6.0m2 laminate fathead sail (the same outline as the smaller 4.7m2 sail in the pictures above). The conditions were more challenging than I wished for (quite a bit of wind) for a first sail. No capsizes though.

    Although further testing needs to be done with the larger rig to get all details right, it looks very promising in the sense of having a small and a large sail available for the boat accommodating both lighter and heavier sailors and giving all an nice and exiting ride in the same conditions (the aim is that, let's say, a 85kg sailor will have the same sailing sensation as an 65kg sailor in the same wind conditions).

    Tiller loads remain very light and the boat feels just as balanced as with the smaller rig. Obviously a lot more speed (read continueous planing) than if I would have gone out with the smaller sail. Two different sail sizes should allow for a large crowd to pick the right rig for them depending on body weight and sailing skills. Also it should be noted that both sails come with a reef.

    The last rig that is being developed for the boat is a lug rig. I have the spars ready but need to take the bending data of the yard so that Michael can do the final design of this sail.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Some pictures showing the larger sail:

    DSC_0241 by Joost Engelen

    DSC_0235 by Joost Engelen

    DSC_0245 by Joost Engelen

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    Some pictures showing the larger sail:

    DSC_0241 by Joost Engelen

    DSC_0235 by Joost Engelen

    DSC_0245 by Joost Engelen
    Seems to me that sail area is only fixed to a specified limited area by the need for a 'level playing field' for racing purposes.

    as Joost points out, that tends to specify the weight of the Skipper - or is specified to a particular location.

    Once reefing is implemented a whole world of flexible possibilities opens up.......

    I would bet the same guys would be fastest (or slowest) whether the sail area is specified or not - so why not leave it open so it can be reefed to anyone's comfort level? I suggest the average speed across all conditions would be higher AND the skippers will be more comfortable all round.
    It is a great feeling to sail a big sail area in light breezes - and also a relief to have a snug rig in testing conditions. Modern materials and techniques can take the 'klutz' factor out of variable geometry.

    this is my joy currently
    frank

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    For a boat like this it is important that there are some clear options regarding rigs. I don't expect fleets of these boats racing (just yet), but to have a fun experience on the water, a certain sail area is necessary for the weight/skills/wind speed. Both these mylar fathead sails can be reefed if so needed (since I have both, I will just rig the smaller sail if the circumstances so require). The large rig I sailed if a strong Bft 4 gusting to 5 and gives a fun ride (but it as at the maximum that can I can handle somewhat comfortably).

    Obviously some other sails fit and one can have more reefs if so wished.

    A lug sail is currently being developed for the boat that will have appr. the same sail area as the larger fathead sail. But it will have 3 appropriately spaced reefs so you can tune it to the conditions of the day/sailing skills/body weight.

    What you describe Frank, I agree with for most boats. That is how I sail my Goat Island Skiff, i.e. reefing early so it is easier to handle. Average speed does not suffer much and is often actually increased. But for a true sports boat that is not how it works. This is where people may want to search the boundaries (i.e. look for the physical side of sailing). These rigs should hopefully accomodate a lot: fun sports sailing (fathead rigs) as well as taking it easy cruising around (balanced lug rig).

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    And adding headsails / gennaker is an effective way of adding large amounts of area for light wind / offwind

    though experience in the International Canoe shows that not having them is not disastrous to downwind performance - mind you it was pretty boring not carrying an extra on the run

    My focus now is Cruising (where the urge is to beat a tide, say) or expedition racing where one is less concerned about specific "Rules" than allround convenience and effectiveness.

    (sorry, are we into thread drift?)

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Had some fun Saturday sailing the Viola 14 canoe for a few hours on a small nearby lake. The video is with the larger 6m2 (64ft2) fathead rig and shows the boat doing some tacks and gybes near the shore with some accelerations in between.


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