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Thread: Storer Sailing Canoe

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Replying to the question about the sails.

    RSS does all three sails.

    MIK

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Looking at this pretty boat really started to bring my boatbuilding itch back...
    The big problem with building a boat from scrap is that you don't really know how the boat behaves until you've put a lot of time, effort and money in the project. I've had some rather bad experiences with an Iain Oughtred Whilly Boat I've built a couple of years ago. The boat looked marvellous, rowed very well, but was quite unstable under (balanced lug) sail. I have some rusty dinghy skills (Flying Junior, Laser 2 regatta and the Dutch Stern class), but I found the Whilly boat quite frightening. Later on I found out that mr. Oughtred had come to the same conclusion and redraught the plans, making the bilges a little less round. Eventually I sold the boat for next to nothing and went back to a dull but functional GRP keelboat.

    The movies of the Viola canoe, however, look promising. The possibility to change the rig is a big plus. I'd love to try the boat before building it, to get the feel of it.... Given my own specs (1.74 m, about 73 kg) I guess the smaller rig would be OK?

    I had a wild thought though: I happen to have a Blokart with three different sails (3m, 4m and 5.5m) lying around; https://www.blokart.com/blokart. Could that work on the Viola? One of my concerns is that the carbon Blokart mast is too flexible for a sailing boat. The Blokart folks have developed a rather clumsy looking catamaran, so they too seem to see possibilities to use the sails on the water.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Why don't you mail Joost about it. He is actually a nice guy, and was present with his family at the Punterweekend Belterwiede. He had his canoe with him and I was unfortunedly to busy with my own boat to ask him for a ride. He said the boat sailed like a Laser.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    You are welcome to try the boat. We plan to go sailing coming Saturday again. Need to take some rigging photos so would bring the smaller fathead rig and the lug rig. Smaller fathead rig should work for you.

    The boat sails differently in comparison to a laser (boat weighs about half, is narrower and the sail is smaller; so easier dominated), but if you can sail a laser you can sail this boat. And it can be paddled too!

    I would think that the Blokart mast would be too flexible.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Blokart rig looks well enough sorted
    Similar righti g moment to laser (and Viola - approx.)
    Looks good to me. ....
    Last edited by Frank!; 05-22-2018 at 06:36 PM.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    Blokart rig looks well enough sorted
    Similar righti g moment to laser (and Viola - approx.)
    Looks good to me. ....
    While all true to me the distance between the foot of the sail and the mast foot looks a bit short.

    I would also say the gust response is going to be very different than the sail / mast combination that MIK designed and will alter the sailing characteristics, perhaps detrimentaly. When I sailed International Canoes I struggled tacking in certain winds for a year until someone said you need more Cunningham - completely different boat, little things catch you out and completely change the handling.

    In addition the BloKart sail will be designed for higher apparent winds and looks very flat to me and will be slow in light airs.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    In addition to the comments made by tink, I will put forward the following considerations:
    - The righting moment of the Viola canoe cannot be compared 1:1 with the Blokart. You hike the canoe whereas in the Blokart you are sitting in the seat in the middle. Obviously the wheels on the side of the Blokart compensate somewhat but how much?
    - The Blokart will reach higher speeds because of less friction (rolling resistance tires on hard send in comparison to wetted surface on the canoe - hence the flatter sail) which will mean that a larger part of the forces on the rig are translated into speed putting less stress on the mast.
    - If you go to the Blokart site, they are clearly recommending smaller sail sizes for a certain wind speed/body weight in comparison to what you would be comfortable with on the Viola 14.
    - the mast is windsurfer style and bending much more. Good for gust response. But will it be strong enough on the slower boat especially if sailing a comparatively larger sail (see bullet point above).
    - The fathead sail on the Viola 14 canoe has the regular sail controls (cunningham, vang and outhaul) to optimize sail shape to the course you are sailing, wind speed, etc. Some of these you controls are less important on the Blokart because of the higher apparent winds where the sail is sheeted in a lot more (i.e. the main sheet does the work here).
    - Does the geometry of the attachment point of the main sheet work (aft sheeting interferes with the tiller and tiller extension since the boom is relatively short).

    The dagger board case on the Viola 14 canoe allows the dagger board to be tilted back some to account for different rig types, but obviously it would need to be verified whether the centres of effort / resistance are correctly positioned in comparison to each other.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Hi tink
    (Prolly should start 'nother thread but yr comments brought back memories of my International Canoe days. ......
    I remember l once decided that "gust response" was a figment .... i cant remember the reasoning now but it may have had something to do with already using the max righting moment possible (and as you know that s a lot with an 8' olank!)
    Anyway i think we've yet to see even two Violas racing so performance tweaks are hard to speculate about.
    My take is that, unlike the IC with its dauntingly long and steep learning curve, Voila is about as close as you can get to the sort of fun boat that both and expert or a beginner could jump in and have a ball!
    Last edited by Frank!; 05-23-2018 at 06:50 PM.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Surely inertia is the key. Even when you're at the end of the plank, you still have inertia - the gust has to lift your body higher if it's going to heel the boat. Lifting a typical man 2 to 3 ft higher is no easier for the wind to do than it is for another man to do.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    Hi tink
    (Prolly should start 'nother thread but yr comments brought back memories of my International Canoe days. ......
    I remember l once decided that "gust response" was a figment .... i cant remember the reasoning now but it may have had something to do with already using the max righting moment possible (and as you know that s a lot with an 8' olank!)
    Anyway i think we've yet to see even two Violas racing so performance tweaks are hard to speculate about.
    My take is that, unlike the IC with its dauntingly long and steep learning curve, Voila is about as close as you can get to the sort of fun boat that both and expert or a beginner could jump in and have a ball!

    Gust response is definitely real it is a very carefully engineered matching of mast bend, batten bend and sail stretch.

    Once your are fully hiked out the ‘system’ should start to respond and provide a fixed amount of force. This is obviously a graph of the ideal rarely achieved in the real world.

    If you just have a bendy mast it will bend too soon spilling power, as the wind increases the bendy rig will then become overpowered. As a result it will only be in the sweet spot for one wind strength.

    This is not just about the racing can boys but makes the craft less twitchy.



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  11. #151
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Joost Engelen View Post
    - The Blokart will reach higher speeds because of less friction (rolling resistance tires on hard send in comparison to wetted surface on the canoe - hence the flatter sail) which will mean that a larger part of the forces on the rig are translated into speed putting less stress on the mast.
    Good points, but the Blokart's higher speed will increase the apparent wind when going upwind and close reaching, therefore putting more strain on the mast rather than less.

    A Viola canoe sailing upwind in 20 knots of breeze at (say) 5 knots will get about 23 knots of apparent wind. A Blokart sailing upwind in the same 20 knot breeze and going 15 knots because of the lower drag will get about 32 knots of apparent wind, which will create roughly double the force.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Good points, but the Blokart's higher speed will increase the apparent wind when going upwind and close reaching, therefore putting more strain on the mast rather than less.

    A Viola canoe sailing upwind in 20 knots of breeze at (say) 5 knots will get about 23 knots of apparent wind. A Blokart sailing upwind in the same 20 knot breeze and going 15 knots because of the lower drag will get about 32 knots of apparent wind, which will create roughly double the force.
    I think that it is a bit more complicated than that. Inceased apparent wind means higher wind speeds which does not automatically mean higher forces on the mast since that will depend on what you are doing with the sail (are you spilling wind, sheeted in too much or perfect angle). Also there is not just one force (there is lifting force as well as drag).

    Mast bend is important as to make sailing the boat manageable since it will flatten the sail and open up the top releasing some of the forces. If there is too much mast bend, it will bend before you need it to, if there is too little, the ride will be very direct. Much depends on rightening moment (i.e. body weight), sailing skills, etc. If a very flexy mast would be good for a sailboat: why don't we see them on the water (the only flexible masts are windsurfer masts which also get quite stiff by the time the sails are tensioned and the masts are pre-bended).

    Anyway, we are getting into too much detail here and the exact sail dynamics are still not fully understood anyhow yet by experts (which I am certainly not).

    I propose to keep the discussion on topic here, namely on the Viola 14 canoe. Some sailing rigs were considered when deciding on the dagger board construction including the opti rig and the 4.2 Topper rig. Some others will surely work as well.

    And by the way, the boat will easily plane upwind in 20 knots of wind, so may go a bit faster than 5 knots.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Since the point was brought up I thought it was OK to discuss it. I'm experienced when it comes to bendy rigs on small craft. However, if you feel addressing a point is taking the thread off topic, I will let it go.

    The Viola looks lovely and if it's planing upwind that's very impressive since Lasers etc cannot do that; in fact I don't think any other singlehanded boat without wings, a trap or a sliding seat can.
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-27-2018 at 04:18 PM.

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Good points, but the Blokart's higher speed will increase the apparent wind when going upwind and close reaching, therefore putting more strain on the mast rather than less.

    A Viola canoe sailing upwind in 20 knots of breeze at (say) 5 knots will get about 23 knots of apparent wind. A Blokart sailing upwind in the same 20 knot breeze and going 15 knots because of the lower drag will get about 32 knots of apparent wind, which will create roughly double the force.
    Chris does know more than something about sailboat rigs.

    A very good sailor and a very fine documenter of dinghy history using the type of analysis he is demonstrating here.

    Tink is spot on too.

    Biggest problem is the apparent wind. Higher speeds mean the sail generates a lot more power when sailing in a normal wind range. Plus that wind is coming from further ahead.

    This pushes the sails on all these boats to be flatter.

    This means underpowered for a dinghy for the same area.

    Multihull sails, land sailor sails, sailboard sails and particularly ice yacht sails are a lot flatter than dinghy sails for this reason.

    Going to the righting moment.

    Consider the little land yacht and the viola are being sailed by the same guy.

    Viola RM - Guy only - everything else is symmetrical. Distance of guy/girl from centreline is just outside the gunwale - about 24". Crew x 24"

    Blokart RM - most weight is on rear wheels - have to consider weight of crew plus weight of cart - because most of the weight is inside the leeward wheel. Distance from leeward wheel is undocumented. Plus the crew hikes their shoulders to weather a bit.

    All of this builds up to a much stiffer and flatter rig to resist the higher RM and apparent wind.

    Add to that, the blocart sail is more expensive than the entire Viola rig 1006$. Add a blocart mast $400 and you have a sail size we considered but discarded as too small for the Viola.

    I don't quibble at the blocart prices at all ... it is what it is and the basic idea is brilliant and the basis is super cheap - but the bits not so. All power to them. But there are less expensive options that suit the boat somewhat better

    4m is the standard size for UK sailing canoe sails that were a large part of our starting point. Then we decided to go bigger because the boat looked anaemic and we were pretty sure the UK sailing canoe beam of 40" allied with a more dinghy type shape would have way more stability.

    So we went up another metre.

    MIK

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    $1007 4sq m (with rigging)



    The price of the 4.7sq m Viola sail will have to be looked up on the reallysimplesails.com website. But it is very much cheaper and includes shipping already (rolled, not folded so shipping is quite a large component of the cost).



    That's not Viola, but Koos Winnip's Artemis canoe - he is an ex foiling moth sailor so he wanted to step up the performance of the Artemis canoe. He chose the complete Viola rig.

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 05-27-2018 at 07:28 PM.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    wonder if i might toss another thought into the mix?

    all 'hoist-a-spar' rigs (except the Gunter) have a poor gust response and to that extent are not so suitable for a light and flighty craft like Viola.

    !!!?
    frank

    and ps. yes Chris (and others) gust response is, i guess, largely a transient response - similar to the spring rate on a car. Having a rig that "gives" easily to the initial blast of the gust front softens the blow and allows time for the skipper to respond.

    my beef with hoistaspar rigs is that firstly they tend to have a 'hard' leech (which, incidentally i see as the purpose of roachy or flattop sails - to soften the leech )
    and secondly they have poor response to the easing of the sheet when a gust powers on. They even can fold into an even bigger belly and power up! on the initial easing of the sheet - then compound their sin by catastrophically collapsing when the sheet is finally dumped.

    How do i know? i swapped the big (huge - 220sq') rig on my Aussie 16' Skiff for a boomless sprit rig about half the size and took out a couple of novices on a blustery day ....
    under the original rig there would have been no dramas as i had proved with all sorts of crews many times before....

    upshot is - i would only prefer a lug rig on a Viola for reasons other than sailing response - and then only with a nice flexy yard!


  17. #157
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    wonder if i might toss another thought into the mix?

    all 'hoist-a-spar' rigs (except the Gunter) have a poor gust response and to that extent are not so suitable for a light and flighty craft like Viola.

    !!!?
    frank

    and ps. yes Chris (and others) gust response is, i guess, largely a transient response - similar to the spring rate on a car. Having a rig that "gives" easily to the initial blast of the gust front softens the blow and allows time for the skipper to respond.

    my beef with hoistaspar rigs is that firstly they tend to have a 'hard' leech (which, incidentally i see as the purpose of roachy or flattop sails - to soften the leech )
    and secondly they have poor response to the easing of the sheet when a gust powers on. They even can fold into an even bigger belly and power up! on the initial easing of the sheet - then compound their sin by catastrophically collapsing when the sheet is finally dumped.

    How do i know? i swapped the big (huge - 220sq') rig on my Aussie 16' Skiff for a boomless sprit rig about half the size and took out a couple of novices on a blustery day ....
    under the original rig there would have been no dramas as i had proved with all sorts of crews many times before....

    upshot is - i would only prefer a lug rig on a Viola for reasons other than sailing response - and then only with a nice flexy yard!

    Confused about what you are saying. MIK has a lot of experience designing balanced lug rigs and though I can’t find it now a great little video showing its gust response.

    A boomless sprit rig is miles away from anything mentioned here and would be a handful on blustery day, give a boom and a vang and it will cope in anything as many Optimist sailors have shown

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    wonder if i might toss another thought into the mix?

    all 'hoist-a-spar' rigs (except the Gunter) have a poor gust response and to that extent are not so suitable for a light and flighty craft like Viola.

    !!!?
    frank

    and ps. yes Chris (and others) gust response is, i guess, largely a transient response - similar to the spring rate on a car. Having a rig that "gives" easily to the initial blast of the gust front softens the blow and allows time for the skipper to respond.

    my beef with hoistaspar rigs is that firstly they tend to have a 'hard' leech (which, incidentally i see as the purpose of roachy or flattop sails - to soften the leech )
    and secondly they have poor response to the easing of the sheet when a gust powers on. They even can fold into an even bigger belly and power up! on the initial easing of the sheet - then compound their sin by catastrophically collapsing when the sheet is finally dumped.

    How do i know? i swapped the big (huge - 220sq') rig on my Aussie 16' Skiff for a boomless sprit rig about half the size and took out a couple of novices on a blustery day ....
    under the original rig there would have been no dramas as i had proved with all sorts of crews many times before....

    upshot is - i would only prefer a lug rig on a Viola for reasons other than sailing response - and then only with a nice flexy yard!

    This has not been my experience with boomless sprit rigs. You let the sheet out a little, the upper and forward part of the sail luffs, and she keeps driving along to windward. You need to have the sheet lead right, or the head of the sail won't twist and you'll have trouble depowering. You also need to make sure the traveler crosses, or you can have a sail that is only pulling the boat sideways. A boomless sprit is no good at all if it's sheeted to the centerline, the sheet needs to lead like it would for a jib.

    And the lug rig generally depowers when the yard bends. I think you may have sailed on some boats that were not properly set up. If the yard on a lug is too stiff, for example, the sail won't depower properly.

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I can make a fully battened balanced lugsail for an A frame mast. It would work on a catamaran. On a dinghy the mast might consist of a aluminium tube bent in a circle with a stronger thicker foot in a delrin tube. Have an article about it, must find it. Was today working with a magician in stainles, steel, aluminium. I will ask him if its practical.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I can make a fully battened balanced lugsail for an A frame mast. It would work on a catamaran. On a dinghy the mast might consist of a aluminium tube bent in a circle with a stronger thicker foot in a delrin tube. Have an article about it, must find it. Was today working with a magician in stainles, steel, aluminium. I will ask him if its practical.
    I presume you are worried about the ‘bad tack’ Surely an A frame mast for a lug rig would prevent issues squaring off on the run. It also add parasitic drag and complexity. Gary Hoyt developed an offset lug rig where the sail is ‘crained’ away from the mast. It added a lot of complexity for a small boat.
    http://www.garryhoyt.com/id19.html


    Surely the difference of sailing on the two tacks should just be lived with as a characteristic of the rig. Optimist sailors rig the sprit so the are faster off the line on starboard and that is all the thought the ‘bad tack’ ever receives.


    Michael Storer is asked about the bad tack of lug sails in ‘furled sails’ podcast number 130. Well worth a listen.
    He believes that it is only an issue in winds so light that most people wouldn’t be capable of sailing anyway.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I presume you are worried about the ‘bad tack’ Surely an A frame mast for a lug rig would prevent issues squaring off on the run. It also add parasitic drag and complexity. Gary Hoyt developed an offset lug rig where the sail is ‘crained’ away from the mast. It added a lot of complexity for a small boat.
    http://www.garryhoyt.com/id19.html...
    --- I wonder how downhaul tension would require bomb-proof engineering on an offset-rig? The downhaul would seem to be tugging on a significant lever, stressing the lever and the mast it attaches to. Maybe with carbon-composite? --Wade

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- I wonder how downhaul tension would require bomb-proof engineering on an offset-rig? The downhaul would seem to be tugging on a significant lever, stressing the lever and the mast it attaches to. Maybe with carbon-composite? --Wade
    I have put some thought into the idea of an offset lug rig, the first I heard of Garry Hoyt's design is today.
    For a conventional lug rig my idea was to have similar offset arms on the opposite side of the mast to take the halyard, thus balancing the forces each side of the mast and removing that bending moment from the mast.

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Tink, Codger,I forgot his name but it was indeed Hoyt who proposed a new dinghy with lugrig as a successor for the Laser. Fully battened for racers. I hope I can find the article, it was written 20 years ago and I saw it in a Dutch sailing magazine. I tried full battens in a balanced lug but it was less good then I expected.
    Last edited by FF; 06-07-2018 at 05:10 AM.

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    [FONT="][FONT="]I presume you are worried about the ‘bad tack’ Surely an A frame mast for a lug rig would prevent issues squaring off on the run. It also add parasitic drag and complexity. Gary Hoyt developed an offset lug rig where the sail is ‘crained’ away from the mast. It added a lot of complexity for a small boat. [/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="]http://www.garryhoyt.com/id19.html[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Surely the difference of sailing on the two tacks should just be lived with as a characteristic of the rig. Optimist sailors rig the sprit so the are faster off the line on starboard and that is all the thought the ‘bad tack’ ever receives.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="][FONT="][/FONT]
    [/FONT]

    [FONT="][FONT="]Michael Storer is asked about the bad tack of lug sails in ‘furled sails’ podcast number 130. Well worth a listen.[/FONT][/FONT]
    [FONT="]He believes that it is only an issue in winds so light that most people wouldn’t be capable of sailing anyway. [/FONT]
    I've revised my viewpoint on that with a lot of racing of the Oz Goose fleet in the Philippines.

    The concern is about the "crease in the sail because of the mast" is the repeated theory.

    We race 7 to 28 Oz Geese regularly.

    We can be sure that the untested assumption is quite wrong.

    That is the good tack. It is pretty obvious. Most boats have the rig on the port side. A couple have it on the other side.



    I think some things have been accepted without actually being tested.

    We test it every race day - so ideas to fix a baseless assumption that has always been wrong ...

    MIK

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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    not news to me, and i have posted* somewhere about it a while ago now.

    I sailed an Oughtred Puffin in strong and blustery winds and was shocked at how much more docile and user friendly the boat was on the 'Bad' Tack.

    on reflection the problem was that of most hoist-a-spar rigs - they have a poor gust response because they twist off awkwardly.

    When the mast is to leeward 'behind' the sail, the mast "pushes" the forward end of the gaff up to windward - so twist is readily induced, freeing the upper leech.
    With the mast to windward, the sail hangs off to leeward like a spinnaker - and you cant carry a spinnaker with the wind forrard of the beam...

    you get the gist....

    frank
    *hey! - sorry , i came the this thread from elsewhere and didn't see my post above about hoist-a-spar rigs - but in any case the post i was thinking about here happened much longer ago - years ....
    and i do acknowledge that the flex of the gaff is a critical factor, rather than the rig so much - but reality is, few boats actually have a non-clunky, fine tuned, flexy gaff - unless honed in a racing environment....

    (gosh! hope i have extracted foot in mouth - but fear i may have just swapped!)
    Last edited by Frank!; 06-17-2018 at 08:01 AM. Reason: mea culpa

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