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Thread: Storer Sailing Canoe

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Another wee video.


  2. #107
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    We gotta be close. "How soon will the plans be available?"
    Jeff

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I believe that Michael (Storer) is working on the plans right now.

    Some exiting news in respect of the boat: it is now also available with a lug rig (RSS sail, 6.3m2 with 3 reefs). The mast is an aluminium section as for the laminate fathead rigs, the yard and boom are carbon (made from a standard 490cm constant diameter windsurfer mast cut in two - the round in the head has been adjusted to match the bending of the yard).

    I did a raid event with the lug rig and we survived fine. Also paddled the boat a bit with a 280 cm long paddle on a self designed/made kayak style seat. It is easy enough to keep up with the fleet (I did not try to go very fast, but I believe you can easily outpaddle a Seil or Caledonian yawl).

    Still love the boat and hope that the plans will be ready soon so we can see some more of these boats of the water!

    Videos of the lug rig made during the first outing with the rig here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTMnBAXeiIU
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEai8g5I3IQ

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Some photos:

    DSC00425 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    DSC00426 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    DSC00427 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    DSC00449 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    DSC00437 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

    DSC00450 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    And here a photo of the kayak style paddling seat (used in conjunction with a 280cm long double bladed kayak paddle).

    DSC_0453 by Joost Engelen, on Flickr

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Same mast step position for the lug rig?
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Same mast step position for the lug rig?
    Yes, same mast step position. So the boat is very versatile in use allowing one to easily swap over from one rig to the other one. No changes at all to the hull.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Love the seat and the new Lug sail
    what would you say are the positives and negatives of each rig?

    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa



  9. #114
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Love the seat and the new Lug sail
    what would you say are the positives and negatives of each rig?
    Positives laminate fathead sails:
    - more powerful and faster
    - more responsive
    - easier to control sailshape (downhaul, vang, outhaul)

    Negatives:
    - there is one reef in both the smaller (4,7m2) and larger (6.0m2) fathead sail, but it is more hassle tying it in, on the water it will be very difficult to do it from the boat
    - virtually impossible to strike the whole rig on the water (luff sleeve sail on the mast)

    Positives lug rig
    - Large sail area (6.3m2) with 3 reefs. Centre of effort lower than on the larger fathead rig
    - Reefs are easy to tie in on the water
    - Easy to strike down the rig on the water
    - Very easy to manage the rig on the water (putting reefs in, striking and setting the mast, etc.)

    Negatives lug rig
    - Less powefull for the size
    - Way softer feeling (also a benefit since it results in much easier handling, see above)
    - Depth in the bottom part is easy to control through an adjustable outhaul as on the fathead rigs, but in the upper part of the sail it is up to the yard to do this (i.e. to bend in gusts and flatten the sail). The sail is very well matched to the yard and does this nicely, but of course with less control as on the fathead sails.

    So in short, for me at least: if wanting speed and a more physical boat the fathead sails are the way to go. If looking for more versatility and the ability to easily put in reefs and strike and set the mast (as often required when touring) the lug rig is much better.

    The hull and foils remain unchanged so it is easy to have 2 different rigs for the boat. Some of the sail controls (sheet, downhaul, halyard) are interchangable. Costs for both rigs is quite similar if wanting a nice adjustable outhaul on the lug rig.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Is the fathead sail faster than the lug reaching?

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Is the fathead sail faster than the lug reaching?
    Yes.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Thanks for that Joost
    sounds like a great way of getting two style of boats out of one hull.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Is that a sleeve along the head of the lug that accepts the yard?

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Is that a sleeve along the head of the lug that accepts the yard?
    It is easier to tell looking at the photos at original size:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/370841...52286/sizes/o/

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/370841...08820/sizes/o/

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/370841...97723/sizes/o/

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Is that a sleeve along the head of the lug that accepts the yard?
    No sleeve along the head accepting the yard but laced on the traditional way. There is some light grey leather on the yard (also on the boom btw) that may have given you the impression of a sleeve?

    The sail is loose footed and I have rigged a 1:4 outhaul with a preset maximum depth of the sail. This outhaul also works for the reefs as I have tied in rope loops giving the same foot length as for the full sail area. 1:3 downhaul and the halyard is rigged as on most Goat Island Skiffs (so the halyard keeps the yard to the mast and there is no separate ring), which you are familiar with.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Final rush to get the plans done. A few days.

    In plan terms the deck is on including the mast partner. Waiting for the gunwales. The centreboard case including the mast step is built as well as the cross frames and not fitted. I can steal the sections for previous boats for the foils. Rudderbox is swing, but it leverages the normal dagger/kickback box that I use so might be able to use some of that text and diagrams. Masts won't be too complicated (alloy or lug yard and boom is a carefully chosen carbon windsurfer mast or alloy).

    We also have a nice video compiled from what you may have seen which will be released at the same time. Plans will be on duckworks.

    You probably saw the summary article saying the plans were getting close

    OK back to fitting and tapering the gunwales! (on metaphorical paper).

    MIK
    Last edited by Boatmik; 03-29-2018 at 09:21 PM.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    How about now... done yet?

    <ducking, dodging, etc.>
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    How about now... done yet?

    <ducking, dodging, etc.>
    Plans are done and now available.

  19. #124
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  20. #125
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Congrats, Mik. Thanks Joost for the prototype and keeping us in the know!

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I've a Laser in the stable. The weight of this one is really appealing. Don't want to inquire about a fellow's weight, so what is the boat's displacement capability?
    My Sooty and other boats: https://lingeringlunacy.com/

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I am the guy in the videos and do not mind to share my weight: close to 90 kg where I am sailing the smaller fathead sail in the video and just over 80 kg in the videos with the large fahead sail and the lug rig. I have sailed with 2 kids on board, so that would be around 140 kg. The boat was designed for one person keeping in mind a passenger for the occasional ride.

    You can choose the rig to suit your body weight, prevailing weather conditions and sailing skills. Up to 80 kg the smaller rig is probably best. The larger rig needs some more weight and better skills as the boat does get quite a bit more difficult to handle (narrow boat and more weight aloft due to the longer mast). The largest rig is the lug rig. Although larger again than the large fathead sail, it is far easier to handle. Also 3 reefs, so very flexible in use.

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Thanks, Joost, for chiming in with more detail!
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Beautiful little craft. I don't see the fathead sail being offered at RSS -- where can they be gotten? -- Wade

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Beautiful little craft. I don't see the fathead sail being offered at RSS -- where can they be gotten? -- Wade
    Ask them. I bet they can hook you up.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    Shooting from the cuff here - and please take this as an alternate point of view - not a criticism! - 'cos I reckon this boat would be a blast - just the thing to get the old juices surging again! ;-)

    - oh, and I have campaigned the Uffa Fox sliding seat canoe - an even more extreme beast ,,,,

    Its the choice of flotation scheme that worries me. I am in the "end tank" school for preference. (as in the Solway Dory). The photo shows how high the boat floats on its side - I would be pretty diligent in not relinquishing my death-grip on the mainsheet in a capsize .... (having had a few desperate swims after a receding boat).

    Now, I can appreciate the elegance of utilising the side tanks as torsion boxes for strength - and I love that such a long and capable boat would be so light (I could imagine someone doing the Texas 200, or a Watertribe event), however those tanks still cause the boat to float dangerously high in my estimation.{An expedition load might weigh the boat down enough to get enough grip to slow the drift?}

    I assume a sealed carbon mast - so little chance of allowing turtling. (if the boat is very light, and with good mast and rigging, turtling may not be so bad - at least the boat will be "parked"). Thus, if the boat escapes (and such light, high performance craft seem perversely determined to do this ....) then you had better be wearing the means of calling for rescue - and the gear to survive until it comes.

    I see there is little more flotation in each tank than floats the boat - so pulling down on the centreboard should easily right it - and allow a reasonable amount of water in the bilge (good! - in my experience). Bailers will quickly empty it.

    Also I think that lateral stability in a swamped boat is not a problem in practice. I may revise this if I find that declining agility requires more side buoyancy - however I have found that flotation arranged athwartships, rather than using side tanks, generally gives sufficient stability.

    But, particularly if the bow is not supported, it is crazy-hard to cope when the swamped boat does not have much longitudinal stability.

    I do not have any concern about a lot of water aboard after a capsize. I reckon that any boat that comes up with a bellyful of water is likely free of other vices that impede self recovery - being easier to reboard, more docile generally - and whilst a heavily swamped boat is less likely to charge into the rocks, or under a wharf, it can still be sailed reliably - if slowly - on any course (dead downwind may be a bit iffy!)

    Well! I didn't mean to write a treatise ....

    forgive me,

    old frank
    Howdy,

    Now it is the fullness of time and experience.

    My tendency is toward end tank buoyancy as well. However it can make the boat hard to get back into unless it has very low freeboard (from design or water inside).

    The Viola has been righted several times. At least once in rough conditions on the open sea. Also by Joost's wife Viola in calmer conditions. She was a dinghy sailor 20 years ago but has had a very long holiday. Her comment was "what an easy and fun boat".

    Viola getting aboard after the planned capsize. She's had unplanned ones too.



    All successful.

    Because of the modest side tank buoyancy it is best to bring her up with the minimal pressure required. She ends up with only a two knuckle depth of water in the hull at the deepest point.

    Rushing it using more weight on the centreboard pressed the boat deeper in the water so it scoops up much more.

    Joost has been in a RAID where the boat handled well in bad conditions. He called it "not fun" but other bigger boats were pulling over to the side. I found this surprising that a virtually open boat handles rough conditions.

    If not for expedition sailing where a totally watertight cockpit is a boon Joost recommends as self bailer for performance oriented sailors.

    Best wishes
    Michael

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    I still have a small lump at the side if my eye and had a shiner for a week after doing a bit of empirical design of my canoe’s righting characteristics. I was testing with end buoyancy bags only, pressend on one gunwale to be whacked with considerable force with the other. A swamped canoe with end buoyancy bags is more unstable than a rolling log.

    My 12’ x 30” open canoe does not have space for side buoyancy bags which look so effective in aiding re- entry and being able to sit in a swamped canoe.

    I keep looking at the canoe and see if I can cheat my way into a Viola inspired design with side tanks but know I can’t.

    In the past via this forum I think I have asked cheekily MIK if he would design a 12 ft GIS. He says he has tried drawing one a few times but is never happy with the outcome. You have to respect a designer who could easily plump up his portfoilio of designs for a quick buck but doesn’t because in isn’t right.

    Anyway the 12ft GIS is not required anymore - to me the Viola 14 is my perfect boat. My daughter and I have 6 boats at the moment and a non sailing wife so I need to sell something first.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Very nice videos and am looking forward to see you sail her. It is also a stimulus to go forward with Zest to compare the boats.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Zest or zest? - is Zest some new project than needs sharing with us all ?

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Zest or zest? - is Zest some new project than needs sharing with us all ?
    Zest as in Richard Woods designed Zest, a 14ft singlehanded racing dinghy. Same length, but different approach to a fast & fun sailing dinghy.

    Looking forward to seeing it on the water and doing some sailing together!

  32. #137
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    So do I, and I hope you take your canoe to the Punterweekend.

  33. #138
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    So do I, and I hope you take your canoe to the Punterweekend.
    Yes, I will bring the Viola canoe to the Punterweekend!

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    ... My 12’ x 30” open canoe does not have space for side buoyancy bags which look so effective in aiding re- entry and being able to sit in a swamped canoe. ....
    --- Can you bond or otherwise attach some slabs of closed-cell foam to the inside-sides (perhaps glassed over the outside)? Perhaps a two inch thickness (the standard thickness of CC home insulation foam slabs we can get in the USA) would still allow you enough room to sit inside (probably, given the 30 inch beam).

    Another possibility -- bond this foam to the bottom of the canoe and install a bailing port (such as an Andersen, or perhaps just a simple plastic screw-out inspection port), so that the boat would float and stabilize as the water drained off?

    I am sure you must have thought of these things, so I guess I just want to know why they may be bad ideas :-) -- Wade

  35. #140
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    Default Re: Storer Sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- Can you bond or otherwise attach some slabs of closed-cell foam to the inside-sides (perhaps glassed over the outside)? Perhaps a two inch thickness (the standard thickness of CC home insulation foam slabs we can get in the USA) would still allow you enough room to sit inside (probably, given the 30 inch beam).

    Another possibility -- bond this foam to the bottom of the canoe and install a bailing port (such as an Andersen, or perhaps just a simple plastic screw-out inspection port), so that the boat would float and stabilize as the water drained off?

    I am sure you must have thought of these things, so I guess I just want to know why they may be bad ideas :-) -- Wade
    Thanks Wade, not bad ideas there, will give it a think. I am keen not to add too much weight as I primarily paddle the canoe

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