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Thread: Lapstrake designs

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Jusat noticed where you are from
    You should be building one of these

    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Three videos on clinker construction here by Marcus Lewis of Fowey for Traditional Maritime Skills.:

    http://www.boat-building.org/learn-s...s-small-boats/

    Tools

    http://www.traditionalboatsupplies.c...4-roving-tools

    also sell the nail nippers.

    Cooper nails, roves and grip fast nails.

    http://www.angliastainless.co.uk/marine-fasteners
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-17-2016 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Jusat noticed where you are from
    You should be building one of these

    Peerie Maa, Beautiful rowing pram. Could you supply the designer and/or where these plans can be purchased? I can make out its a Norwegian Pram, but not much else.

    Steve C.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Matt young touched on my thought,... The Atkins have a number of lapstrake designs available.

    some real pretty suggestions here.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by asloth View Post
    Peerie Maa, Beautiful rowing pram. Could you supply the designer and/or where these plans can be purchased? I can make out its a Norwegian Pram, but not much else.

    Steve C.
    http://simonwattsfurniture.com/norwe...ling-pram.html
    That is a 14 footer. You could very easily draw the plans out a couple of feet if you want to, which will reduce the pot bellied look of that one.
    The Photo is not of the same boat, but a three thwart rowing version, perhaps 17 foot long.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Jusat noticed where you are from
    You should be building one of these
    Understand what you say Nick, but I also find it interesting to build a design not common here. Feels more exotic

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Interesting. Norway have a good tradition building boats, and I could always choose to build a Norwegian design, but I find it interesting to learn about, and maybe build a design from other parts of the world. It is always inspiring to do something you feel are special, and not commond where you live.
    Fredostli -
    I might have misunderstood, but I hope you do not think I or my designs are Norwegian (not that there is anything wrong with that!). Hvalsoe in fact is Danish. However I'm born and bred in the Seattle area, USA. Some suggest my designs have a Scandanavian flair, I suspect because of the raking ends.

    There are a handful of my boats on the European side of the pond. Very curious exactly what Edward Pearson saw.

    Anyhow, good luck on your quest. A traditional round bottom lapstrake build will be a leap, more demanding and potentially rewarding for you.
    A pram really is a good way to start. Many sources regarding traditional lapstrake assume some knowledge on the part of the consumer. Contact
    me privately if you wish to know more about my boats.
    Eric

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Thanks Eric. In my comment on Norwegian designs I was not thinking about your boats In the area here we have two boatbuilders who build Nordlandsboats, and I restored one 1-2 years ago. I think these boats are beautiful, but there are a lot of designs as presented in this thread that interest me too.

    I agree the most sensible thing to do is building a pram first, but I sometimes struggle to be senible And I do like boats with a stem and a transom, although I love my double-ender Nordlandboat (sometimes I try to mount the rudder on the stem tho)

    My goal is to use materials I saw myself, and this is a long term project, so this is just a preperation before I start cutting down threes :-). It will never be a problem to trash a badly fitted plank and start all over...

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    BTW Eric. I see you have a push-pull tiller on the Hvalsoe 16. Now that is a Norwegian idea, aint it? Have that on my Nordlandsboat

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...way&highlight=

    I have been looking a lot at the videos from "Traditional Maritime Skills"
    Last edited by Fredostli; 08-18-2016 at 02:50 AM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Ahh, remove foot from mouth.

    Push pull a Norwegian idea? Hey, if you say so. Would not leave home without one. I also use a self tending device of my own design.

    Do you want to build right side up or up side down?

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Ahh, remove foot from mouth.

    Push pull a Norwegian idea? Hey, if you say so. Would not leave home without one. I also use a self tending device of my own design.

    Do you want to build right side up or up side down?
    Made necessary because they refuse to saw off the top of the stern post.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #47
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Hvalsoe View Post
    Ahh, remove foot from mouth.

    Push pull a Norwegian idea? Hey, if you say so. Would not leave home without one. I also use a self tending device of my own design.
    To be honest I dont really know, just my typically Norwegian attitude. We like to believe we invented boats, discovered America, etc....

    I do not know if I want to build right side up or upside down. What would be the best alternative for the firs lapstrake build?

    btw did you get my PM Eric?

    Fred

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    There's a book called Robåter og Små Seilbåter written by Torgny Knutson and published in 1948. I have a 1979 reprint.
    The books explains and provides drawings for a number of different Norwegian small craft everything from traditional workboats to what was then a modern dinghy.
    You live in one of the absolutely foremost boatbuilding countries in the world so there is really no reason for you to import a design from abroad.

    If you can find an old rotten boat with pleasant and easy to build lines you could patch it up temporarily and test it out on the water and if you like it then make a set of moulds and build a new similar boat. That is how I have considered doing for my first ever clinker build....if I ever get around to building it.
    Having done some traditional boat repairs and having worked quite a bit on traditional log houses I find it a lot easier to copy a three dimensional shape which I can see and feel than creating the same shape according to some lines on a flat piece of paper. This could be just me..... But if I ever get around to build a boat I want to utilize this ability to it's very best.
    Why not copy an old gavlbåt or landstedsbåt or any of the other square sterned types built in Norway in the 20th century?
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post

    You live in one of the absolutely foremost boatbuilding countries in the world so there is really no reason for you to import a design from abroad.
    There is a lot of reasons to import a design from abroad, just as many as there are beautiful design, and there is just as many reasons to build a Norwegian design I just like to explore...

    I restored a traditional loghouse too (nordlandshus) and i am sitting in it right now :-) I can see your point about 2d vs 3d, and I find lofting a challenge. Some designs dont require lofting, but it is also a challenge I am curious to face ...

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    To be honest I dont really know, just my typically Norwegian attitude. We like to believe we invented boats, discovered America, etc....

    I do not know if I want to build right side up or upside down. What would be the best alternative for the firs lapstrake build?

    btw did you get my PM Eric?

    Fred
    If you are clenching boat nails rather than glue lap, build right side up. That way you are doing the delicate clinking down hand.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If you are clenching boat nails rather than glue lap, build right side up. That way you are doing the delicate clinking down hand.
    Not sure I agree, but this may be nomenclature. I distinguish clench nails from rivits. I like clench nails for at least the frame bays of small boats. Actually I like them for the ribs too, but that is a different aspect. Blind clench nailing is not overly burdensome for an upside down build. A little practice gets the hang of it. Clench nailing is well suited to numerous narrower strakes.

    I agree peening rivits is best done right side up. However the Port Townsend school has planked many small lapstrakes upside down - setting (not peening) rivits and roves as they go, peening after the boat is rotated upright. You can argue the efficacy of that strategy. I did this once when a client insisted on all rivits.

    Otherwise I agree riviting (not clenching) lends itself to right side up construction.
    I also have immense respect for scandavian and other traditions.

    Had not thought of the sternpost getting in the way of a tiller. Nice picture.

    Will check my message box.
    Eric

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    It is an east/west thing. Apart from only one class of beach fishing lugger all clinker seams in the UK are clinker over roves. Nails were only turned back into the timber when fitting steamed timbers, working for speed. It had the advantage that there was less likelihood of creating snags with the smooth surface on the timber with the hook of the nail pounded flush.

    It may be because of this that clenching in the UK is the process of finishing the nail so that it will not draw, normally by peening over a rove.
    Turning the point back into the timber is hooking the nail, and hammering it flat, so that it can draw without damage in case of a bump is called turning.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Trunnel fastened.


  19. #54
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    In the northern parts uf the Baltic Sea boat nails were always hooked on traditional boats. A special type of flat iron nails was used. I have only shifted a few planks but I can tell that to get a good result with this type of hooked nails you must work right side up.
    The normal procedure is to bend the nail over a triangular piece of steel which has a handle on it. Then hammer the tip into the plank.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Yes, proper clench nails taper to a chisel point, making it easier to bend the nail tip.


    As well as bending the tip first over a triangular steel, you can instead bend it with a pair of needle-nosed pliers (if you're not doing very many), and then hammer it flat into the wood. Both these methods require two separate actions. Or you can use the traditional 'bucking iron' to roll the point straight round into the wood in one manoeuvre.

    Whichever way you do it, the tip should be bent across the grain, not longitudinally.


    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    I have now been in contact with both Hvalsoe and Gartside, and have a good idea of what to look for while I mill my timber. I have three beautiful designs in my head: Oughtreds Tammy Norrie, Gartside Skylark and Hvalsoe 16. Tammie Norrie or Hvalsoe 16 will be the choice if the priorite leans toward rowing, and Skylark towards sailing. But ofcourse I still might gain some common sense and start with a pram.

    They all will need 10" wide boards, so I will aim for that milling planks. Gartside said scarfing planks is ok. and sometimes a good thing, to have less runout in the plank. Plugging some knots (vertical) was also acceptable.

    Fred

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs



    Got this book in the mail today. Looks like a good book and a Nice design. Anyone here buildt it or have Opinions on mr Kolins designs?

  23. #58

    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Don't forget the catspaw dinghy. This is a herreshoff tender 12'8" modified by joel white. Herreshoff built it lapstrake, White built it carvel. Nice rower, good sailor. Woodenboat offers a very complete how-to book

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    I looked at the book about building the Catspaw, and it looks like a nice design, but as I can read it describes carvel?

  25. #60
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    Default Bent frames material

    If I manage to start building a lapstrake design, I will use spruce for planking. I have available timber and will saw myself. A challenge is alternatives for bent frames. oak is not available here, so I need alternatives. In http://thetroublewitholdboats.blogspot.no/ I read about using Larch. Larch is easyer to get my hands on here than oak. What do you think, and is there other alternatives?

  26. #61

    Default Re: Bent frames material

    I have used larch for planking. Stronger and more rot resistant than pine, but probably more brittle.
    It would make a good rib if the grain is right. Needs lots of steamAsh for ribs if you keep it indoors. Many others worth a look
    Doesn't traditional norweigen boat building use different materials based on availability?
    An all spruce boat?

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Bent frames material

    Quote Originally Posted by chohm View Post
    I have used larch for planking. Stronger and more rot resistant than pine, but probably more brittle.
    It would make a good rib if the grain is right. Needs lots of steamAsh for ribs if you keep it indoors. Many others worth a look
    Doesn't traditional norweigen boat building use different materials based on availability?
    An all spruce boat?
    Yep, I rebuilt a boat from Windermere with steamed larch timbers, and yes the Scandis built with what they had, all oak in the south and they would use roots for frames where they could only grow spruce or pine.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  28. #63
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    Default

    Thanks. I guess I build a boat that will live in a shed, so maybe steaming properties counts most...

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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredostli View Post
    Thanks. I guess I build a boat that will live in a shed, so maybe steaming properties counts most...

    Sent fra min GT-N7100 via Tapatalk
    The Larch timbered boat was a 50yo hire boat from off the park lake. Apart from being laid up in winter it spent every hour outside in British weather.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    Sure, Catspaw can be done lapstrake. I'm not specifically aware of plans to that effect, but you'd think . . .
    Mastly a matter of adjusting plank thickness and rabbet depth to about 3/8", and possibly ribbing a more lightly.
    Best for garboard to have a good rabbeted landing full length (in case carvel plan omits keel apron)

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    I think any of these small boats that you are looking at could be converted to traditional lapstrake without too much trouble. It's optimal to get help directly from the designer, but if you find a set of lines that you really like, we formumites can certainly help you come up with the construction details. As for ribs, I'm sure I've heard of larch ribs, but I have no personal experience. One of the key factors to successful steaming is high moisture content in the wood. Since you have access to very green wood, I'd guess that you'll do fine with most anything you cut. As a last resort, you can always laminate spruce ribs, like on an Adirondack Guideboat. Not as much fun as steaming, but it produces a very light and strong frame system.

    Its funny. I've got nothing but mature oak on my property. I wish I had a single spruce.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    To bad we are not neighbours OldDominionWB :-)

    I post via tapatalk two photos of a 4,5 meter board I have sawed. its 35 cm at the widest end. Most of the spruce here have a lot of knots, but when I find areas with less knots I saw them for boat planking. This means I have kind of started my build. I am not shure yet if I decide on 15-16 feet "sail and oar" design or a more narrow 13-14 "oar and sail" I hear some say it can be more difficult building smaller in lapstrake, so maybe a 15-16 foot is a good start?

    We have some aspen here, and its very rot resistant but must not be soked over time. I know a boat builder that buildt a boat with aspen planking. Maybe an alternativ for bent frames?

  34. #69
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    Default

    Spruce

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  35. #70
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    Default Re: Lapstrake designs

    I see where people are coming from with long boats vs. short boats, but I don't think longer boats are *necessarily* easier to plank than short boats. In my opinion, it's the turn of the bilge, and the change in deadrise from midships to the bow, that really makes the difference. Basically, it's how much twist is required in a plank. A 16' Whitehall will be tougher to plank than a 12' dory because the dory doesn't have much twist, and the Whitehall does. However, an 12' Whitehall will be more difficult to plank than a 16' Whitehall because it will require the same degree of twist in a shorter length of plank. I think this is where people are coming from when they say a longer boat is easier to plank than a shorter boat.

    I'd say you'll get the best answers about wood if you test out the different species you have on your property. Wood choice is a pretty personal thing. Everybody has different experiences, and we all feel very strongly about our opinions. Practice steam bending some pieces. Try the different species with screws, rivets, clinch nails- whatever fasteners you plan to use- and see how they hold. Local growing conditions have a lot to do with a wood's qualities, so I guarantee you that your experiences will differ somewhat from other people's experiences with the same species. Some people can't stand yellow pine, but there's some unfinished loblolly pine on my house that's lasted just over 100 years now. Presumably it's old growth. Back then, growing conditions were very different, the wood wasn't being farmed, and it's a completely different wood from the loblolly 2x4's we get at Home Depot. I'm not saying we can't give you advice, but I think in this case, all of our advice isn't nearly as valuable as a day or two of your own experience.

    Remember that ribs are easily replaceable, and anything can be fixed. Of course you should make the most informed decision that you can, but if you've got the sawing equipment, I'd say go with what you've got on your property. In general, I think you probably want something strong and probably reasonably hard. So pick the strongest stuff on your property. Most importantly, don't let the decision keep you from building the boat. Even if the ribs don't last, you'll have a lot of new knowledge when it comes time to replace them.

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