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Thread: Reading order for everything we know

  1. #1
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    Default Reading order for everything we know

    This forum has a lot of smart, experienced contributors...

    I have been sandbagging here for some time, so I am confident in the potential payoff in asking for help from you guys in developing this theme..

    I have been a contributor to the Small Craft Advisor.com message board over the past year, but am only getting sporadic responses over there...

    I am hopeful this larger group will open more discussion possibilities of this universal subject, an all-consuming interest of mine..

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    hi dutch
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Theme

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Hi Paul,
    Yeah, thanks!
    That would have been my Dad, Kees, born in Delft, 13 years in the Java trade, Dutch merchant marine. When Herr Hitler closed Holland that fleet was homeported out of N.Y.2and L.A, my mom was from Tennessee.

    My OP subject is huge, but I am thinking, you and your buddies here have that great balance of intellect and experience that building , and the sea can provide, indeed, .. insists on.

    Thanks for coming back, I consider that an auspicious beginning..

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    G'day Dirk, I'm just one of the amateurs here, and welcome aboard.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Thank you sir, I appreciate the nautical style welcome!
    I am no stranger to boats, or their building and use, over the years.

    But, for all that, or maybe due to it, my interest now longs for some way to unify experience and events in a coherent way ..

    That might be the underlying motivation in beginning this investigation.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    G'day Dirk, welcome .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    " . . . but am only getting sporadic responses . . . " [OP]

    Raise honest questions about real things you're working on, share pix an descriptions of things you're doing, and respond honestly and helpfully to the questions of others and you'll be part of the conversation.

    Ask phony questions that are really demands for validation, dictate the only true way, or indulge in flame wars about how to torque hull screws with the slots all lined up, and you'll perhaps get sporadic responses of mild hostility but mostly you'll get nothing.

    If you troll in the Bilge on matters other than woodenboat related, you might have better luck at drumming up ego satisfaction, if that's what you really want.

    You are who you show yourself to be. Welcome aboard and hope it goes well.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Visser View Post
    I am hopeful this larger group will open more discussion possibilities of this universal subject, an all-consuming interest of mine..
    What, pray, is the subject? I still have no idea what you're asking.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Welcome! So, what is this "huge" topic you wish to discuss? Or is it a collection of things?
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Hi Chip, and Ian,
    Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.
    The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
    Like I mentioned it is a very large subject..in fact the biggest we can work on as conscious thinkers..

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Visser View Post
    Hi Chip, and Ian,
    Gentlemen, thanks for your interest.
    The subject matter is everything we know, and an exploration of that interface between what our senses bring us and how we formulate ideas.
    Like I mentioned it is a very large subject..in fact the biggest we can work on as conscious thinkers..
    Perhaps "divide and conquer" start small and work through. Your turn.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Everything we know

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Right Paul,Excellent strategy!After all, we are looking at totality here aren't we?Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Psychology, Art, Ethics...by definition nothing is excluded from the order we find ourselves immersed in.We make sense of it, but how has that been accomplished?

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Here's a Division...

    What do we actually know, vs what have we accepted from someone else, or from some common agreed upon reality, and therefore only know second hand.
    Greg H. - from before the great crash, 20th century member 108

    "(T)he Republican Party no longer recognizes the legitimacy of any opposition."

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Aha! Crucial and blurry distinction there, for sure!Sight, taste, smell, hearing, touch...the classic 5 are direct and trustworthy...
    Those stories and opinions though...buyer beware!

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Thanks guys for the cordial welcome (And local knowledge cautions), last night.

    In reviewing the posts I was reassured of the power of a group and the dialouge to open up new horizons of consideration in any discussion. The advantage of unique viewpoints, if you will..

    Specifically, Arizona Bay led into a recognition of the narrative as a slippery slope, and I responded with a back to basics affirmation of the 5 senses.

    But, later on the pillow, as I was mulling over the implications, I realized there is powerful language and imagery, yes, to convey beliefs and versions of reality;....but there must also be a "structure of stimula.."
    Our sensory apparatus has been built by our surroundings, to supply the organism with survival level information..a raw data feed that has managed to keep us here.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    okay i was wrong
    hi ish
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Cool Paul !
    The thing is, this line of inquiry, if handled gently and intelligently, has some chance to correct our course in time to avoid the foul ground and rocky shore we are bound for..

    Events and relationships appear to form the groundstuff of nature, but our science has barely gotten the news, or remains in deep denial..

    Our societies and cultures, magnificent and charming, and capable as they have grown to be, are still rudderless when it comes to plotting a sustainable series of waypoints for the species, and the planet..!

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Wrong place, Dirk (who ever you are). The pomposity of your verbiage, by itself, will hinder conversation here.

    But mostly, noone here can sustain such a conversation for more than a page.

    Talking philosophy wiith boaties is a dead end in my experience (at least 10 years here at this point.)
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
    And other things, too.
    http://www.landsedgephoto.com

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Don't believe everything the charming Elf says, just sometimes we have some very good conversations here.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Hi Elf,
    Everything collects in the Bilge as I am sure you are aware..
    I am a seasoned Alaska, Washington, and California boatman, since you ask.
    Ten years on the WBF has me beat, but I have been observing this group for the past year, and will take my chances on them..!
    Feel free to put me on "ignore"..!
    Call it Bilge Sachet, and thanks for the revealing and valuable response..

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Dirk: (Kiss) off.

    Has to be the fastest addition to the <PLONK> since that idjiit Steve Cross laddie.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Sure Vince,
    All good!
    Opinion is, after all, a deadly force!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    Wrong place, Dirk (who ever you are). The pomposity of your verbiage, by itself, will hinder conversation here.

    But mostly, noone here can sustain such a conversation for more than a page.

    Talking philosophy wiith boaties is a dead end in my experience (at least 10 years here at this point.)
    This might be a reasonable response. Me, I'd say if you haven't already done so, take couple of college history of science courses and ditch the internet.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Wikipedia. Begin at A, and work your way through to Z.
    There's the stuff we know (and, no, you cant trust your five senses), the stuff we think we know, the stuff we know we dont know, and the stuff we dont know we dont know.
    And what is knowing? I conceptually have a very good handle on how a car engine works, how many of the components are made, and why certain components are made from one metal vs another. I dont have a clue about flame propagation in high pressure environments, fuel injector nozzle design for optimum atomisation, how to calculate the safety factor of a flywheel spinning at 8000rpm - or even the mathematics involved to figure these things out.
    I am equally sure there is a whole bunch of stuff that I dont know even exists when it comes to engine design. So where do you draw the line, because the deeper you dig, the more you find.
    They found the Higgs Boson, and now they're looking for even smaller widgets.

    Pete
    I have one troll on ignore

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    The foils are lifting us boys, can you feel it?
    Some nice course made good again last night.

    Dave, your suggestion of a history of science survey course was brilliant!
    It really cuts to the chase, and the crux of the problem we face as interpretive thinkers.

    That history, from agriculture, through the the bright lights of classical Greece and China, on up to the Renaissance, and now our transformative postmodern tech-enabed day, really lays bare our orientation to the natural world which produced us.

    Francis Bacon said " put nature on the rack, and let her reveal her secrets".
    Descartes, Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Von Neumam, Watson&Crick, and countless other gifted minds continued forging the scientific path.
    Their empirical reductionist approach holds immense power, but also it seems, a fatal flaw.
    In the effort to exclude error, science had to make itself "value-free".
    Always the mechanistic how of things, never the why.

    In an exposed, codified, environment, where we have now gained the helm, this is the challenge before the human today:
    As we depart genetic control, how the hell do we learn to read nature for an intent?

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    In the effort to exclude error, science had to make itself "value-free".
    What sciences would you prefer with errors and values?

    Personally, I like my science to be error free. I find it's much more... user friendly that way. Values I can get elsewhere. Or, what the hell, just make some up.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Yeah, exactly John!
    You have identified the paradox of awesome power but little consensual agreement of where to apply it, beyond the marketplace, or weaponry ..!

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    well, we've bantered about a bit, Have you decided on a topic to kick it off?
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    As we approach the nothingness of the cloud of unknowing . . .

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    well, we've bantered about a bit, Have you decided on a topic to kick it off?
    I didn't get an answer to my question "What sciences would you prefer with errors and values?"

    Would you like to start there Dirk?
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Right Paul f.
    Can we just go with "Totality" and figure that will cover it?

    Ian:
    Would a shorthand label for that be convenient ? How about "The Void"..?

    Dave,
    Good point... None!
    And we needed that kind of restricted focus as we were coming up, but it is confining up here at these levels.. Nature is yielding control of all her secrets and codes..
    We ourselves are now calling shots in the survival game.The observable is broadcasting on many levels as our instrumentality has so amply demonstrated..
    And interestingly, as Karl Popper pointed out last Mid-century, science cannot be relied upon that without the admission that it itself, must be falsifiable ...!

    But the premise is we need to expand the field now..recognize that nature has always been about individuation, mental and physical, hell, she can't make two identical objects... That's a huge clue about one aspect of what she is after:

    Innovation..!

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Chinese style re-education camp might be just the ticket. You might then come to agree with Colonel Saito: "Be happy in your work!"

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    Default Re: Reading order for everything we know

    Sorry , I meant "John of Phoenix "for that last entry, not Dave..
    ...the thread controls are still unfamiliar...
    Like how do you review recent posts while you are entering a post yourself..?

    ...But I will say I am very grateful for the chance to test float a few of these ideas past you guys the last couple of days. And the honest responses have been some first class experience gathering, which is our job here, right?

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