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Thread: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

  1. #666
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I did, too. Looking in the "Wood Database" while the Oregon (Douglas fir? Pseudotcuga Menziesii?) ls listed as stronger, the lighter spruce can give you a tougher spar for a given weight.
    . http://www.wood-database.com/sitka-spruce/
    http://www.wood-database.com/douglas-fir/

    Of course, there's still that $2000 issue....

  2. #667
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Can't go wrong with some old Oregon out of demolished buildings I'd say, if you are building birdsmouth. Or did you say there's a used rig up for grabs?

  3. #668
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh MacD View Post
    I did, too. Looking in the "Wood Database" while the Oregon (Douglas fir? Pseudotcuga Menziesii?) ls listed as stronger, the lighter spruce can give you a tougher spar for a given weight.
    . http://www.wood-database.com/sitka-spruce/
    http://www.wood-database.com/douglas-fir/

    Of course, there's still that $2000 issue....
    Thanks Hugh looks like I finnally got my head around (Oregon) Douglas-Fir. Funny but I was always under the impression Sitka is priced higher than Douglas Fir in your part of the woods?

    Phil yes to the used rig I still have to see the pictures and receive measurements, it may be from an older Couta boat.

  4. #669
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Wee Barkie started of the year right with a little cruise to the Broadwater overnighting in bums bay and Couran cove. Loosely traveling with the Tweed mob , which is our destination tomorrow. Hopefully the Southerly winds will turn for WB which has managed to sail most of the way.

  5. #670
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Good stuff Tom. I did see somewhere that northerlies are forecast.

  6. #671
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Good stuff Tom. I did see somewhere that northerlies are forecast.
    We left early yesterday morning with light SW winds with WB trailing behind due to our cross border daylight saving time differences . We could not have asked for a more glorious day despite the light winds which started turning more to the SE as we crossed a glassy calm Tweed Bar just.after lunch.
    Looks like we will be seeing the return of the NE tomorrow after a full week of Southerlies which is rather unusual for this time of the year.

  7. #672
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Yes, surf's dead flat here too.

    But I'm stuck on why WB was trailing behind due to daylight saving ..... ?

    Rick

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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Yes, surf's dead flat here too.

    But I'm stuck on why WB was trailing behind due to daylight saving ..... ?

    Rick
    The simple truth is I am not great at doing a 5am sail wich means it is 6 am for the Tweed guys I sail with.

    Unfortunatley irregardless of what side of the daylight saving fence you side with ,our Gold Coast Tweed cross border DS issues complicate business and affect community organazations as well as social interactions.

  9. #674
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    A complete pain in the butt if you live near the border.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  10. #675
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Well I took the plunge or should I say Wee Barkie’s mooring block did ,dropped in at Boyd’s Bay with the aid of a crane truck. Now just to rally WB and some courage in attempting to lift the one ton block assisted by the tide and move it about 30 m to its new location.

  11. #676
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    Well I took the plunge or should I say Wee Barkie’s mooring block did ,dropped in at Boyd’s Bay with the aid of a crane truck. Now just to rally WB and some courage in attempting to lift the one ton block assisted by the tide and move it about 30 m to its new location.
    Defo need some pictures of that process!

  12. #677
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Defo need some pictures of that process!
    The only condition being they donít qualify for funniest videos

  13. #678
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    A friend of mine did the same with a 3ton block in Tenerife. It was interesting to watch the boat as the waterline of the boat raise as the tide came in. He had a pretty big boat, but it was an eye opener. His boat was mostly flush deck and he used very wide crane hoist straps over the decks. I didnt hang around for the drop, i believe it was a case of cutting a chain link, but he was a pro diver. I would assume his mooring block is still there, even if he isnt.

  14. #679
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Do have a reliable release mechanism. Could be quite important. Even under water a tonne of concrete will weight a bit, and if it's sunk into the mud it may not want to let go.

  15. #680
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    a 1 ton cement block will be close to 600kg under water (~1300 lbs)....What sort of bottom? If it is soft silty mud than a very substantial part of the holding will be suction between the block and the bottom. If it is rocky or hard pan, you may want more weight.

  16. #681
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Do have a reliable release mechanism. Could be quite important. Even under water a tonne of concrete will weight a bit, and if it's sunk into the mud it may not want to let go.
    I would be be interested to hear any ideas on a release mechanism
    .The plan at this point is to either cut a rope or possibly try lowering the block using the Sampson post and the capstan on my anchor winch.
    I also plan to use a large boat fender attached and buoying the 24 mm chain in order to prevent block from landing on its side once deployed.

    Presently. the block is located on the fbottom row of the breakwater rocks, wich sit on sand.

  17. #682
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    It's the lifting that worries me. If I understand correctly you are going to snug up the block at low tide, and then crack a beer or two while you wait for the tide to come and do the work. And nervously wait while the waterline recedes further and further under water. As you wonder whether the capstan will pull out of the deck. The bulwark will collapse, the load will suddenly and inexplicably pull sideways and tilt the boat alarmingly to on side. At any of these moments, it's either more beer or release the load. If you cut the rope, that might be a slower process than you expect, unless you have a chain saw or an axe on hand, either of which might do nasty things to whatever is under the rope. Can you take up 600 kg, maybe more, on the capstan to release the pawl mechanism? And you'll need some sort of retrieval line so you don't lose the block in a moment of panic.

  18. #683
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I'm sure it will be fine. Take plenty of beer.

  19. #684
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I applaud DIY but carrying a mooring out is not something I'd try with a yacht. Maybe a big catamaran .... Good luck with it!

    Rick

  20. #685
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Re masts, wouldn't be using sitka for a gaff mast unless you had some. Oregon will be better and cheaper, not sure about those prices quoted above. Don't think you need a birdsmouth mast unless you want to build one, not sure if I would have a hollow mast at all for a gaff and the birdsmouth will use more timber. That timber you had might give some pieces for a glued solid mast (if you put that though my thicknesser there would be rough language). A glued solid mast will be stronger than a natural solid and you can 12:1 scarf any shorter pieces. Not sure of WBs size but I'm thinking 25ft, so maybe 4" to the hounds then taper to the cap and assuming keel stepped. I did a lot of reading about Oregon and ring count does not affect its strength that much with timber from the same source however I'm not including plantation stuff at the hardware store. Will you use sail track for the gaff and sail hoops and jaws?
    the invisible man........

  21. #686
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I'd be building a temporary catamaran barge from 10x 44s , a short tripod and a chain block.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  22. #687
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I applaud DIY but carrying a mooring out is not something I'd try with a yacht. Maybe a big catamaran .... Good luck with it!

    Rick
    I share your interpretation however Lance our last mooring guy used his 36’ yacht regularly with the aid of a hydraulic winch towing 1.8 ton concrete blocks around. There are several possibly exaggerated stories of his prop coming out of the water while underway when encountering wakes.
    Phil most of those concerns are valid and extremely difficult to calculate or measure , as would be the forces generated on anchor rollers by a fouled anchor or a yacht snubbing on the end of a mooring in the 30 knot winds we have had several days now.
    When we craned the block of the truck it was perfectly balanced and as I will be using two lines on my double bow rollers sideway weight distribution should not be a problem.
    While cruising I have witnessed what an anchor chain wrapped around a coral head and snubbing the bow in a blow can do to a heavy duty bow roller then again those forces are created by shock loading and may well measure many tons .

  23. #688
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Have you got a big enough fridge for the beer?

  24. #689
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I'd be building a temporary catamaran barge from 10x 44s , a short tripod and a chain blockbhyyy. H .
    Thanks Peter that’s a great idea, and I will get onto exploring that idea further.

    Today while checking on the depth of the block at low tide which was 250 mm I had a look at a large alloy working skiff the dredgers are using nearby. it has an A frame used for pulling up gear . not sure if it is capable of lifting 600-700 kilos.

  25. #690
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwaterline View Post
    Re masts, wouldn't be using sitka for a gaff mast unless you had some. Oregon will be better and cheaper, not sure about those prices quoted above. Don't think you need a birdsmouth mast unless you want to build one, not sure if I would have a hollow mast at all for a gaff and the birdsmouth will use more timber. That timber you had might give some pieces for a glued solid mast (if you put that though my thicknesser there would be rough language). A glued solid mast will be stronger than a natural solid and you can 12:1 scarf any shorter pieces. Not sure of WBs size but I'm thinking 25ft, so maybe 4" to the hounds then taper to the cap and assuming keel stepped. I did a lot of reading about Oregon and ring count does not affect its strength that much with timber from the same source however I'm not including plantation stuff at the hardware store. Will you use sail track for the gaff and sail hoops and jaws?
    While the idea to convert WB back to a gaffer has been there for a while the thoughts of building a bird mouth spar only came about after last years East Coast Cruise. The reasoning being to eliminate weight aloft due to her relative quick downwind motion. Her present heavely stayed rig is a rather heavy alloy cruising rig which is 1 m longer than the original gaff design.
    And yes WB is 25’ with her original rig being 28’ although the solid spar she had was about five and a half inches at the base on deck.
    I am curious about using sail track on a gaff rig ?

  26. #691
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I am not sure that a normal track system will stand the forces on a normal traditional gaff. That said I have seen photos of a few, all I think, on aluminum masts so the mast and track are structurally one.
    L.F. Herreshoff designed a batch of boats with short gaffs later in his career. I have sailed with the short gaffs hoisted on tracks on two boats of his design. They work well, more or less like a precursor of the fat or square head sails now used for racing. The big advantage is the mast can be built lighter because is can be supported by stays exactly similar to a Marconi sail. My masts are around 100 lbs each, ( Herreshoff Box construction) and they are oversized for the boat and rig. You cannot of course have a standing back stay, with the gaff swinging about. In my case the boat is designed so the two masts are sprung forward and are constantly putting tension on the head stay. Works just fine for a cruising boat.

  27. #692
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    A lighter mast would produce a quicker downwind motion, if you mean rolling.

  28. #693
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    That's right, as I understand it. A heavier rig will cause a heavier roll but a gentler roll.

    Tom, doesn't WB have an aluminium mast? I'd have thought that would be lighter than any timber mast, wouldn't it?

    Rick

  29. #694
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    That's right, as I understand it. A heavier rig will cause a heavier roll but a gentler roll.

    Tom, doesn't WB have an aluminium mast? I'd have thought that would be lighter than any timber mast, wouldn't it?

    Rick

    WB was originally designed for gaff and had a rather large timber spar that was no doubt heavier than the present double sleeved alloymast.
    However the present mast is also one Meyer longer has oversized rigging complete with a very large fully battened main .

  30. #695
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    I'm still not clear what the problem is. Or if you are still wanting to go lighter. I think even a heavy ally mast with heavy rigging will be a lot lighter than the original rig, and if you go for a lighter rig you will get less degrees of roll, but a quicker and jerkier motion. I don't know if that helps.

  31. #696
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I'm still not clear what the problem is. Or if you are still wanting to go lighter. I think even a heavy ally mast with heavy rigging will be a lot lighter than the original rig, and if you go for a lighter rig you will get less degrees of roll, but a quicker and jerkier motion. I don't know if that helps.
    Thanks for all the reply’s. The problem as I see it.

    Since WB is a short ended craft with a refined full body medium displacement and ballast the present mast height may well be too high for the limited stability of the hull.
    I observed this on my East Coast run where much of the roll was exaggerated by the that additional meter of mast

    My gut tells me a low aspect ratio gaff main with a similar size in main sail area , combined with a shorter lighter dyneema rigged mast will be the way to go and assist in keeping her competitive edge.

  32. #697
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    So not a hard, snappy roll, just too much roll?

  33. #698
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Not so sure that aluminium masts are automatically lighter than a wooden mast but usually are. The ally mast on Ghost was heavier than I thought it would be. I recall seeing english boats with sail tracks on a gaff rig, I assume towards the end of the general use of the rig, the rigs were more modern looking, like marconi, not heavy mast, rigging with dead eyes, etc. The topmast on a gaff rig will be lighter above the hounds as it would be tapered somewhat. A hollow mast will be a bit lighter but will also be a bat larger. How will you protect the inside of a hollow mast?
    the invisible man........

  34. #699
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Wee Barkie snugged up to Redwing just as a precaution as X Cyclone Linda was developing.
    Garry watch out for W B anchor chain within your backing radius.[IMG][/IMG]

  35. #700
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    Default Re: Wee Barkie a pocket cruiser meauring just over 25' will it get me there

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    So not a hard, snappy roll, just too much roll?
    Probably a combination of the two at times we even took on water through the scuppers. Some of those sloppy conditions may have been due to the strong East Coast current running.

    I have not considered protecting the inside of a hollow mast other than end plugs and plugs where the full gaff jaw is seated.

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