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Thread: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

  1. #36
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    MD, Have you tried stitch & glue on the panels instead of nails?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  2. #37
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Did you see the examples from my 'boat show' thread?

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oden-Boat-Show
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  3. #38
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    David,
    I had not seen that thread. Those are fantastic pictures of probably the most eclectic and complete gathering of neat boats anywhere! That looked like a fun time, and your pics conveyed it well.

    I hope I can learn how to take better pictures like that. I always seem to miss something in my pictures.

    The little tug with the red rails is awesome! I would love to have that to tow my punt around. In fact, there were several very handsome power boats there.

    Keep it up MirrorDude! Can't wait to see your boat, too.

    Peace,
    Robert

  4. #39
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    David,
    I had not seen that thread. Those are fantastic pictures of probably the most eclectic and complete gathering of neat boats anywhere! That looked like a fun time, and your pics conveyed it well.

    I hope I can learn how to take better pictures like that. I always seem to miss something in my pictures.

    The little tug with the red rails is awesome! I would love to have that to tow my punt around. In fact, there were several very handsome power boats there.

    Keep it up MirrorDude! Can't wait to see your boat, too.

    Peace,
    Robert
    Rob - you are too kind. It's funny. Those were shot with my new smart-phone. First smart-phone this old Luddite has ever owned. A Motorola MotoG. The camera on is is not rated as highly as the latest from Apple & Samsung... but it takes comparable fotos to the digital camera I paid many hundreds of dollars for a few years back. AND it automatically uploads them to my flickr account - where I can easily sort them into albums. This saves TONS of time - allowing my to post fotos from an event the next day. I highly recommend that route... and kick myself for not succumbing to the blandishments of technology sooner.

    It truly was a marvelous show. Happens every year, if anyone wants to come by. But if you think that is impressive... come visit the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in early September.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #40
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I didn't, thanks for sharing! Nice to see some finished examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Did you see the examples from my 'boat show' thread?

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oden-Boat-Show

  6. #41
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Nope, as the thread title states, this is my first time building (at least with building anything bigger than a shelf out of wood), although I'm a professional design engineer, so I'm comfortable with complex shapes and assemblies.

    My real name is Alex, by the way ... although I've always used mirrordude online since my days of designing automotive exterior and interior mirrors.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    MD, Have you tried stitch & glue on the panels instead of nails?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Progress this weekend:

    Finished the keel and stuffed it tight with pink insulation board that I had lying around. Then, I attached it to the hull and made a nice fillet. I've gotten pretty good at that, this one will need minimal sanding.



    Saturday afternoon I took a nice drive to the lakeshore with my wife and we just happened onto a wooden boat show put on by the Macatawa club of some sort. We didn't spend long there but I saw some nice examples of fine craftsmanship.




  8. #43
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    gotta love the trailer queens. most do get wet for a few hours at least.

    So um.. the keel is an air tight box? Hmmmm I didn't really look at the plans but I was thinking ballast.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  9. #44
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Got the rest of the keel glassed yesterday, now working on the seat boxes. I tipped them 45 degrees and poured resin inside to make an interior strength fillet.


  10. #45
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    pouring? Just asking, not trying to tell you what to do. in my experience most fillets are done with peanut butter consistency epoxy/cabosil mix.
    Keep up the great work!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #46
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    pouring? Just asking, not trying to tell you what to do. in my experience most fillets are done with peanut butter consistency epoxy/cabosil mix.
    Keep up the great work!
    +1 ^

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  12. #47
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Mirrordude, I know filleting can seem like a real chore when you are starting out, especially when it comes to sanding the mess that you've created! Especially bad in corners like those in the boxes you are working on! But if you try a few more meters of it you will be doing nice clean fillets in no time. The trick is to have a collection of round tipped putty knives for fillets of different sizes. I generally use one with a radius of about 15mm. I make them from really cheap plastic plaster scrapers, roughly shaped on the bench grinder. Once you have the tool, pipe or spoon your thickened epoxy along the joint and don't worry how rubbish it looks - it doesn't matter a bit. Then take your rounded off putty scraper and drag it along the joint so that it leaves a perfect fillet with a horrible trail of mess either side. Next get a flat scraper and start scraping up the mess, being careful not to disturb your nice perfect fillet. Don't worry if you are leaving a thin film of epoxy all over the place as you do this - it will be so thin that a light sand is all it takes for it to disappear under the paintwork later. It is also critical to mix enough filler in that the fillets don't sag. You'll get a feel for this very quickly. There is a good demonstration of filleting technique on the CLC northeaster dory building video. As for filler I use ordinary flour and that works for me. Another tip for cleaning up fillets quicky (once cured) is to use a 40 grit flap disc on a small angle grinder, once you find the right angle and pressure you can clean up messy fillets in a flash. Just be sure to do a practice run as the flap disc cuts very agressivley. Sorry if I'm telling you what you already know. All the best. Cheers, Alex

  13. #48
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I made the fillets in the picture in post #42 the way you guys described ... I agree for an unsupported fillet it's the way to go.

    But I'm basically gluing the box together and adding a strength joint simultaneously, where with thickened epoxy I might have to do those in two steps.

    I sketched out a picture of my reasoning:



    Thickener is a necessary evil in order to get the epoxy to stay put long enough to set in place, the way I see it, and by volume and weight thickened epoxy is probably weaker than unthickened. But for these simple boxes where I have the luxury of orienting them the way I want during construction, and the ability to access the back of the joint so I can add tape to prevent (or at least slow down) leaking, the runny "raw" epoxy levels itself better and will pull into all the gaps and grains, leaving an overall stronger joint.

    Of course, this is just a theory. I'll mess around with it a bit tonight and if it seems like my idea didn't work out, I'll put a filled fillet in.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    MD. most folks just paint unthickened POX, in the area you indicated, taped as you indicate and as the POX begins to set they do the thickened fillet creating a bond/joint that is much stronger than the wood itself

    your way is NOT WRONG it just limits you to one seam at a time where the thickened POX fillet method allows the builder the luxury of doing the whole thing at one time, saving build time & saving POX while creating a very sound joint

    using wood flour or one of the commercial fillers is less POX consumptive/expensive than using 100% POX and it makes short(er) order of the project

    just this old man's 2 worth

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  15. #50
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Edge to face glue joints are weak even with epoxy or solid wood. Plywood joints are only as strong as the ply the adhesive is bonded to. Fillet joints have 2 faces with more surface area than a edge to face joint. In box or 90 degreeish joints the glass and epoxy on the outside of the joint ( this is when the joint can be filled) creates a very strong joint! This is when the wire or plastic ties can be cut off if they weren't pulled out when epoxy "tacking" before making the fillet. The great thing about this way. is there is almost no running of the liquid epoxy I know.. it was like a new floor coating in the old house basement I used rent!

    Yup, the method even has a wikipedia page





    Last edited by DeniseO30; 08-31-2016 at 10:23 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  16. #51
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrordude View Post
    I made the fillets in the picture in post #42 the way you guys described ... I agree for an unsupported fillet it's the way to go.
    Ll
    But I'm basically gluing the box together and adding a strength joint simultaneously, where with thickened epoxy I might have to do those in two steps.

    I sketched out a picture of my reasoning:



    Thickener is a necessary evil in order to get the epoxy to stay put long enough to set in place, the way I see it, and by volume and weight thickened epoxy is probably weaker than unthickened.But for these simple boxes where I have the luxury of orienting them the way I want during construction, and the ability to access the back of the joint so I can add tape to prevent (or at least slow down) leaking, the runny "raw" epoxy levels itself better and will pull into all the gaps and grains, leaving an overall stronger joint.

    Of course, this is just a theory. I'll mess around with it a bit tonight and if it seems like my idea didn't work out, I'll put a filled fillet in.
    No, quite the opposite. Straight epoxy is quite brittle, and gets stronger when thickened with high density filler like cabosil or glue powder. Micro-balloons or other fairing type fillers is a different story - you dont want to glue or do structural fillets with this stuff.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  17. #52
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    No, quite the opposite. Straight epoxy is quite brittle, and gets stronger when thickened with high density filler like cabosil or glue powder. Micro-balloons or other fairing type fillers is a different story - you dont want to glue or do structural fillets with this stuff.

    Pete
    Well, I like that information. I used the Gunn'le to deck joint with a fillet rather than trying to 'pay the devil'. The fillet has performed for 20 years now and I am encouraged that the thickened epoxy avoided any brittleness.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Turns out the way I tried doing the fillets wasn't that great, so I went with a filled fillet using West System filler. This turned out much better, was a lot easier to do, and cleaned up better. Thanks for the advice!

    Seat boxes are done and sanded, and I cut out some more parts that I hope to apply fiberglass to tonight.

    I made a slight mistake programming the cutout for the seat boxes and had 1/2" too much material. Luckily that's an easy mistake to fix!

    My plan is to get all the parts ready by Saturday so I can glass the floor and then put all parts that touch the floor in position while the glass is still wet.










  19. #54
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I took a couple of hours after work today and built a rolling fixture that will keep the boat level and mobile in my garage.

    It's cut to the same profile as the bottom of the boat and will eventually become part of the trailer.




  20. #55
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    With the latest work I'm now up to 119 hours and $1864.58



  21. #56
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Got some more parts glassed last night. I'm getting a lot better at anticipating how much epoxy to put down and how to smooth bubbles out.

    These parts only took about an hour to do including trimming the excess about 5 hours after the initial glassing ...

    I also ordered the final pieces of marine plywood that (I hope) I need. My local Menards doesn't stock the 1/4" stuff I need for the rest of the cabin and the hull sides.

    I put a new sheet of 9x12' plastic over my garage floor after I got lazy last time and a lot of epoxy dripped onto the concrete floor. Most was easy to remove, but some was not ...

    I'm up to 120 hours and $2048.97.




  22. #57
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Doing great! Amazing how little epoxy you need to wet out the cloth, isn't it? So many of us get in trouble with way way too much mixed and wasted.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  23. #58
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    A heat gun and taping knife will pop epoxy blobs right off your concrete floor. I learned that after I made a few canoe shaped rings on our old garage floor...

    Peace,
    Robert

  24. #59
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I didn't have quite the productive weekend that I'd hoped, but we had a lot of family fun so it was productive in other ways.

    I did get the hull flipped over and moved into the cradle. It felt surprisingly good to stand up in the boat for the first time.

    I added pencil markings for critical panel fits after measuring them from CAD and comparing to the real parts. My three piece scarfed hull is only 1/8" longer in real life than in CAD, so I'm calling that a win. The curvature also matched the cradle almost perfectly.

    I managed to get all the screws out that were used to hold the hull bottom to the keel. I was surprised how much epoxy it took to fill the holes up. I'm assuming that a bunch leaked out into the gap between the hull and the keel reinforcements, but having more epoxy there is probably a good thing.







  25. #60
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I had a very productive weekend. I glassed one side of most of the smaller cabin parts and the top side of the hull bottom.

    While the epoxy was still wet I installed the front fence, the lower half of the cabin sides, the seatboxes, and the aft hull planing surface doublers. These will still need fillets, but I figured the extra adhesion of putting the parts down into wet epoxy couldn't hurt.

    If you're familiar with the Candu Jr. you'll note that I've deviated from the plan some ... the fence in the plans doesn't include the vertical supports and the cabin sides are one piece, not two. When planning the assembly process I decided that I'd like a little more deck support and hull stiffness, and the vertical portion of the fence provides both. Making the cabin sides 2 pieces helped increase my 4 x 8 sheet yield and allowed me to make the lowers out of 1/2".

    I also made a quick trip to work and got the hull sides cut out on the CNC (they're leaning against the wall in the background).

    I needed to buy more epoxy and sandpaper, so the running cost total is now 139 hours and $2427.54.










  26. #61
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Hello everyone. Not to steal mirror dudes thunder. I will be following this thread. I plan on building the Candu EZ. I have the plans and am going over them carefully as I am a first time builder. The plans from Berkeley call for ACX plywood. Does anyone know how many years people have gotten out of their boats built this way. I have scoured the Internet trying to find out the life expectancy of this tug built this way and can't find anything. Any help would be appreciated.
    Dana

  27. #62
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Welcome!

    I looked at the ACX and the Marine AB ply at my local store and decided that the Marine stuff would be easier to bend and take less sanding than the ACX. For only about $20 per sheet difference, I figured it was a no-brainer. $160 difference for 8 sheets in a $4K build wasn't enough to make me choose the ACX.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrordude View Post
    Welcome!

    I looked at the ACX and the Marine AB ply at my local store and decided that the Marine stuff would be easier to bend and take less sanding than the ACX. For only about $20 per sheet difference, I figured it was a no-brainer. $160 difference for 8 sheets in a $4K build wasn't enough to make me choose the ACX.
    SOUND REASONING!

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  29. #64
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    To answer your question, I suppose it all depends on how careful the build was, how many hours go on the boat, whether it's fresh or saltwater, whether the boat is slipped or trailered, etc. Probably too many variables to make an accurate guess. I'm hoping for 20 years at least out of mine, which will be used on inland lakes 10 or so times a year, trailered when not used, and garage kept.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by mirrordude View Post
    To answer your question, I suppose it all depends on how careful the build was, how many hours go on the boat, whether it's fresh or saltwater, whether the boat is slipped or trailered, etc. Probably too many variables to make an accurate guess. I'm hoping for 20 years at least out of mine, which will be used on inland lakes 10 or so times a year, trailered when not used, and garage kept.
    my skiff is 25yo this year and i'm just now getting ready to haul her to the PlyWooden Boat Festival in Port Aransas

    a quick perusal yesterday only reminded me that she deserves a total refinishing(her 2nd)

    originaly and on her only other finishing job she was finished utility and did not get the yacht like dressing

    otherwise i believe her to be sound and quite serviceable for a long time to come

    her trailer gets it's obligatory pre-trip maintenance/perusal today

    the skiff was made of MARINE FIR PLYWOOD screwed to mahogany scantlings w/ epoxy glue & only the bottom being sheathed w/ glass/epoxy

    she was built by a HIGH SCHOOL kids, to give you an idea about build quality :-)

    the skiff gets a sloshing of salt water b4 being emptied & dried out for storage

    the trailer gets a good soapy bath...

    they live in an enclosed though not climate controlled barn

    w/ good construction and proper care why wouldn't you be abe to expect at least 25-30 years plus?

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  31. #66
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    So this is my situation. I live in southern Ontario just off the shores of Geogian Bay in a little town called Midland. Our local Home Depot or any other big box lumber yard here in Ontario doesn't stock marine grade plywood of any kind. I have scoured the Internet and places like Noah's Marine sell only mahogany and no fir plywood. The prices for these plywoods in my opinion are out of my price range. For me to get AB fir I would have to have it shipped in from out west believe it or not which I find hard to understand but unless I'm not looking in the right spots it's for all intensive purposes impossible. So I have constructed a price list of different plywoods and their prices with the current US exchange rate of 1 Canadian dollar being equal to .76 US. I must say that having read extensively about my southern neighbours, it seems running to the local Home Depot or Lowes is a lot more convenient there than here. Your well stocked in various grades of plywood.

    Jatoba (Brazilian cherry)
    4'x8' Canadian $. US $
    12mm. 132.65 100.81
    6mm. 68.98. 52.36

    Gaboon (okoume)
    1/2". 110.95. 79.00
    1/4". 70.45. 53.54

    AB Fir
    1/2". 98.00. 74.48
    1/4". 79.00. 60.04

    ACX Fir
    1/2". 46.98. 35.70
    1/4". 40.15. 30.51

  32. #67
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    I went to the website for the the Roseburg brand I used ($49.99 a sheet for 1/2" 4x8) and they have a Canadian dealer near you:

    AFA Forest Products - Bolton
    235 Wilton Drive
    Bolton, ON L7E 5T5
    (905) 857-4061
    P.O. Box 730


    Quote Originally Posted by toolmantoo View Post
    So this is my situation. I live in southern Ontario just off the shores of Geogian Bay in a little town called Midland. Our local Home Depot or any other big box lumber yard here in Ontario doesn't stock marine grade plywood of any kind. I have scoured the Internet and places like Noah's Marine sell only mahogany and no fir plywood. The prices for these plywoods in my opinion are out of my price range. For me to get AB fir I would have to have it shipped in from out west believe it or not which I find hard to understand but unless I'm not looking in the right spots it's for all intensive purposes impossible. So I have constructed a price list of different plywoods and their prices with the current US exchange rate of 1 Canadian dollar being equal to .76 US. I must say that having read extensively about my southern neighbours, it seems running to the local Home Depot or Lowes is a lot more convenient there than here. Your well stocked in various grades of plywood.

    Jatoba (Brazilian cherry)
    4'x8' Canadian $. US $
    12mm. 132.65 100.81
    6mm. 68.98. 52.36

    Gaboon (okoume)
    1/2". 110.95. 79.00
    1/4". 70.45. 53.54

    AB Fir
    1/2". 98.00. 74.48
    1/4". 79.00. 60.04

    ACX Fir
    1/2". 46.98. 35.70
    1/4". 40.15. 30.51

  33. #68
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Quote Originally Posted by toolmantoo View Post
    So this is my situation. I live in southern Ontario just off the shores of Geogian Bay in a little town called Midland. Our local Home Depot or any other big box lumber yard here in Ontario doesn't stock marine grade plywood of any kind. I have scoured the Internet and places like Noah's Marine sell only mahogany and no fir plywood. The prices for these plywoods in my opinion are out of my price range. For me to get AB fir I would have to have it shipped in from out west believe it or not which I find hard to understand but unless I'm not looking in the right spots it's for all intensive purposes impossible. So I have constructed a price list of different plywoods and their prices with the current US exchange rate of 1 Canadian dollar being equal to .76 US. I must say that having read extensively about my southern neighbours, it seems running to the local Home Depot or Lowes is a lot more convenient there than here. Your well stocked in various grades of plywood.

    Gaboon (okoume)
    1/2". 110.95. 79.00
    1/4". 70.45. 53.54
    that'z a no brainer

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  34. #69
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    Thanks for the number. I called and they don't have 1/4" fir. 1/2" no problem and I can get it from a retailer in Bolton that they distribute to. They don't sell to the general public.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: First time builder: Candu Junior Mini Tugboat

    12 hours logged this weekend. The most obvious difference is that I got the stem installed (it's straight, don't worry, the picture is a bit warped). The rest was all glassing parts and sanding, which I'm pretty sick of.

    I also filleted all the panels that were already tacked in place.

    The new rolling cradle is great because I can sweep up, shove the boat in the corner, and still get both vehicles into the garage. Good thing my car is short.

    I may have made a mistake with the hull sides. The plans had them scarfed together out of two pieces, but I saw that they could have been made out of one, and I figured that the designer was just trying to increase sheet yield, so I made them out of one piece each. Upon closer inspection of the plans I now see it was so that the main grain direction would be up and down and allow for easier bending. They're pretty stiff so I put a ladder on top of them in hopes that they'll warp a little before I try to fit them.

    Worst case scenario I suppose is that they break or crack while I'm tacking them in place and I'll have to make new ones, but I think they may be able to bend. It's a pretty gentle curve.

    The temperature here is dipping into the low 50s at night, although it's still 70+ during the day. I'm assuming that epoxy will still set up well if it gels up during the day? The reaction will just slow down overnight and then pick up again the next day?


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