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Thread: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

  1. #1
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    Default JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    It's taken a while to find time to start but it's finally happened , the first blows have been struck! I have no idea if this build will be fast or slow but rather suspect the latter if history is anything to go on !

    JIM is a canoe yawl , a boat a little different from the Iain Oughtred double enders I read so much about here. How she will perform compared to them I really have very little idea but perhaps somewhere in the middle of the pack ? She has generous sail area, similar sections and decent length . She is also half decked, something I quite like both practically and aesthetically .

    JIM is designed for stitch and glue , an excellent process buy not one I find that attractive, the result can be good but at the expense of more sanding and filling than I would enjoy. So, I'm converting her to glued lap (with designers blessing and permission). A little bit of careful measuring from the plans to establish a datum and base line and away we go.

    I also got a good deal on 9 sheets of 7 veneer 9mm marine hoop pine ply so she's going to be 9mm rather than the optional 6mm. Both options are listed and as I will be mainly sailing alone the little bit of extra weight might well be useful ( I can hear the groans!) but we tend to good wind strengths here and rowing will not be practised that much.

    Here are the first 2 photos, building moulds set up, levelled and squared . The 2 x 15mm x 120mm layers of fir for the laminated keel ripped out , thicknessed and ready to glue but I won't glue then up until I have the stem and stern post laminated , also from fir ( fir will probably referred to as oregon occasionally here, it the normal Australian name for fir) . I have a very useful stash of oregon in 10x2 and 8x2 lengths !







    http://www.selwayfisher.com/DoubleEs.htm#JIM
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  2. #2
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Woohoo! Wonderful Peter, I'm going to enjoy this one, and I'm ready for some spectating for a change. I shall be flipping back and forth between the Olympics and your constant new posts Seriously, the best of luck with the build, and I look forward to joining you on the water in the not too distant future!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Ah photos, it must be true.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Good to see you make a start Peter. Carry right on.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    The wait is over! (I hope Paul Pless has seen this? )
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Yes I'm seeing. Very happy for Peter. This'll be fun to watch. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Peter ,

    A question about your construction method.

    Jim was designed for S&G, and you are building glued-lap. Will you be using lap battens or not? I'm asking because the advice I gave you about fitting bulkheads after the hull is planked would be the wrong advice if lap battens are used.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I'm going to enjoy this one, Peter.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I too will look forward to this....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Any progress in the last 15 minutes, Peter? We're waiting...

  11. #11
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Looking forward to this! Canoe yawls is really beautiful boats!

  12. #12
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I'm looking forward to this too, Peter. I don't think you'll regret the thicker ply, and the 7 ply panels will help if there is significant twist in the lower planks. I broke two 5 ply occume g'bds on the matinicus, before getting some 7 ply Shelman.

    Good luck, and proceed briskly.
    Cricket

  13. #13
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Go for it Peter...dont worry about us, as long as you feed us photos and information at least once a day things should be ok. Cheers

  14. #14
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Good choice Peter. The first boat I built (a Highlander 11) was designed by Paul Fisher. He's a really helpful chap and his designs are good too.
    Ben

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I will second appriciation of Pauls work and that he is a very helpful chap. Praise must be given where its due.

    Any updates Peter?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Looking forward to watching, I think 9mm is just right for an 18ft glued lap boat. Are the garboards on yet?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerryLL View Post
    Peter ,

    A question about your construction method.

    Jim was designed for S&G, and you are building glued-lap. Will you be using lap battens or not? I'm asking because the advice I gave you about fitting bulkheads after the hull is planked would be the wrong advice if lap battens are used.

    No lap battens Terry, using 9mm ply I think it will be stiff enough by itself and I think I'll try to use a batten template system, 2 battens with glued and screwed on cross struts to hold the shape. I hope that works for me.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  18. #18
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I will second appriciation of Pauls work and that he is a very helpful chap. Praise must be given where its due.

    Any updates Peter?
    The photos we from Friday, nothing more yet, the next is to laminate the stem and stern posts.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  19. #19
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Onya Peter oy oy oy

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    No lap battens Terry, using 9mm ply I think it will be stiff enough by itself and I think I'll try to use a batten template system, 2 battens with glued and screwed on cross struts to hold the shape. I hope that works for me.
    OK then. With no lap battens on the inside of the hull you can leave the bulkheads out until the boat is turned. No worries. Try to record on the inside of each plank the location of the bulkheads as you plank up. Fairly easy to do with a plumb bob or level from the bulkhead location marked on the building frame. After the hull is turned it may be a challenge finding that exact line where the bulkhead goes if you haven't marked it as you put on each successive strake.

    Lap battens are certainly not needed with 9mm ply and 7 narrow strakes. The hull will have plenty of strength from all those glued laps, and all those lap battens would surely make finishing the interior more difficult than it needs to be.

    Gert was a great fan of that truss system for patterning the plank shapes. It seems to be a great method for capturing the exact shape, though a bit slower than the spiling batten method. Pics will be required.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    and pics will be supplied ! Thanks for keeping an eye on things Terry.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  22. #22

    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    No lap battens Terry, using 9mm ply I think it will be stiff enough by itself and I think I'll try to use a batten template system, 2 battens with glued and screwed on cross struts to hold the shape. I hope that works for me.
    I'm using the truss system now on my Phoenix III, and it seems to be working out well. It is nice to be able to use the template as a pattern for the router to follow to trim the planks. One variation that I am using is to use a pneumatic stapler to attach the braces to the battens. I find it easier than hot melt glue, and it saves the trouble of removing the glue from the battens if you plan on reusing them.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    A good idea , I've got an air stapler here too..... though it's more likely I'll use sheet rock screws .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  24. #24
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I haven't heard of the batten template system, are there any web references or publications I can look up to learn about it?

  25. #25
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Terry , here are a couple of photos off the forum, the extent of my knowledge but it looks good to me .



    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terry Haines View Post
    I haven't heard of the batten template system, are there any web references or publications I can look up to learn about it?
    Here's a few threads to get you started.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...rds&highlight=

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ass&highlight=

  27. #27

    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A good idea , I've got an air stapler here too..... though it's more likely I'll use sheet rock screws .
    No doubt that will work well too -- with 7 strakes you will have the opportunity to experiment, if you choose to.

    Another variation I am using (this one suggested by Ross Lillistone) is to use rectangles of thin ply about 5" wide as the cross braces. I've been spacing them at about 10" OC.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Thanks Peter (and Terry) - I was assuming the plank developments were supplied with the plans. I forgot about that method. It looks time consuming if you have to do it for every plank but one template does both sides of course. Seam battens might still be quicker and they make it easier to check for fairness. The boat looks like it would make a good stripper although you would likely need some more station molds. either way, it's going to be a great build.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Hi folks,
    Forgive me, but that truss thing seems like an awful lot of work to do to spile a plank, accurate though it seems. How many little bits are there to hot glue on? I used several different methods myself over several lapstrake boats, but finally went quick and dirty. I pushpin or screw narrow (plank width) strips of cardboard around the boat, and hot glue a gusset or whatever to hold them together, then mark the upper edge as laid out the molds on the cardboard pattern from underneath, and mark the stem ends. I then mark the plank widths on the pattern and cut it out with a knife, and lay this out on my plywood to generate a close (but approx.) shape so I can scarf the ply up. I cut out the actual plank a little wide, hang it with screws into the molds, and mark it again from underneath. When cut out, it will go back in the exact same place it was marked. My plywood is usually delivered with 4x8 cardboard banded on the outside, so there is always plenty around. I've also used stiff building paper to similar effect, though its harder to lay it flat.


    A pretty close plank pattern in cardboard, laid out on the planking stock.

    Just my own way of skinning the cat.
    Cricket

  30. #30
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Oooh, I missed the start of this, excellent.
    A very nice design too!
    Vern

  31. #31
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Somehow a spiling batten still seems to be the quicker, but just as accurate method as building ply or cardboard templates. I can understand (and have used) cardboard templates that fit into a hull, deck, floor, but why reinvent the wheel when it comes to planking? Just seems like a waste of time to me.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

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  32. #32
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    What I like about the trussed template idea is that it is self fairing in that it gives top and bottom battens to sight, it then gives a router guide for the next step.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  33. #33
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    What I like about the trussed template idea is that it is self fairing in that it gives top and bottom battens to sight, it then gives a router guide for the next step.
    It strikes me that running top and bottom, self fairing battens to use as router guides is still going to be about 20 times quicker run betwixt compass points than stapling, or hot gluing hundreds of little truss chords that have to also be made in the first place, cut to size during the spiling process and then disposed of. If you're building more than one Jim then I'd say it would be a worthy process. Besides, the lead at the end of a compass is just about free for cost!
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

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  34. #34
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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    Hmmm, not that many bits, probably ply squares or triangles in my case plus gyprock screws and the trust battery drill.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: JIM, an 18 foot canoe yawl.

    I have to say I've always thought the trussed template method was a lot of busywork. Compared to a simple spiling batten it is infinitely slower and not a bit more accurate. The one thing the trussed template does provide is a pattern that can be used with a router to cut the plank shape.

    However, and this is a big one, I always cut my planks about 4mm oversize on both sides, then offer up the plank for a test fit, and then do the final trim. If you're using a trussed template, and cutting to its exact shape, you better darn well be sure your template is perfect, because there's no extra meat on the edges for adjustment.



    A simple ply spiling batten and a compass are all you need to exactly record the plank shape from the boat and molds. Once these points are transferred to the plank stock, the dots are connected using a fairly stiff fairing batten, assuring a fair curve to the plank edges. Cut the darn thing out a bit oversize with a skillsay and clean the edges with a low-angle block plane. Then do a trial fit, trim a bit as necessary, and hang it. It's the method developed by the old timers and it still works just fine today.

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