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Thread: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    I have my doubts about traditional dory construction for a trailer sailor. Stacked up on the deck of a fishing schooner is one thing, sitting on a trailer under a tarp through a New England Winter is another. Surmountable with misting and hosing a week or two before launch, but not fun.

    As for seaworthyness, I doubt Dan is considering Winter North Atlantic conditions. Rounding Capes Elizabeth, Anne and maybe Schoodic in Summer and early Fall is probably Dan's envelope, with an ear to the forecast. I've sailed out to the Isles of Shoals and around Boone Island in a much less seaworthy, but much more weatherly boat. Nova Scotia maybe, hugging the coast, then dashing across Fundy with a good weather window. Bermuda and back requires very deep faith in one's personal angel.

    Hundred mile days are a fantasy, unless going watch and watch 24/7 with a stiff soldier's breeze. That requires competent crew as foolhardy as the skipper. Good luck with that.

    Nothing wrong with a high aspect centerboard, with a good foil shape. It may be more important for accommodations than speed.

    Allan
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Happy to see this finally coming together Dan, you've been daydreaming of her for years. You know I've been eyeing the Provincetown run for a while now.



    Impressed if she goes from Newburyport to ME, which people do in small dinky plastic kayaks on a regular basis? Woof. You're a doubter, for sure.



    *AHEM*, Allen, *AHEM*

    Speaking of which, when are you coming to the coast to join us with your canoe for a day of punting on Plum Island Sound?
    My thoughts exactly!

    I totally agree with Allen, when I'm talking about a 100 mile day I am envisioning a long weekend with a stellar wind forecast, mabey 15- 20 mph, gusting to 25 forecast. and having the option with this boat of pointing the bow across the wind, out to sea and just going, with a hardy crew member (C.222 would be the prime candidate )for 24 hours... leaving 48 hrs for the return trip... Epirb, Radio, Compass, GPS, dry suit/survuival suits would be required for such shenanegains, but with this little boat 100 even 200 miles off shore is a option... it's beautiful out there, I would love to spend an evening just hanging out around Stellwagen Bank and beyond.

    but... realistically most of the use this little craft will see will be within sight of shore and day sailing... I'm looking forward to having her at the schooner races as a spectator boat and maybe sailing on her own bottom to the SRR next year... but trailering home (weather permitting)

  2. #37
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    but with this little boat 100 even 200 miles off shore is a option
    In very settled weather maybe a brave soul would give it a go, but that's just too adventurous for me! 200 miles out is also 200 miles back @60-80 miles a day? That's at least 5 days of rowing/sailing. Maybe your coast is different but there is no way that I would ever want to be 200 miles off our shores in an openboat no matter the heritage. We have 37 gales days a year on average so chances of one developing while you are 3 or 4 days from the coast is a distinct reality. Dan might be yanking our chain a wee bit here, and be building a sight of land with the odd bigger hop cruiser
    whatever rocks your boat

  3. #38
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Dan, man, 20-25 knot winds create, conservatively, 3-5 foot seas in the coastal Atlantic.Probably whitecaps. You really consider those conditions ideal for such a boat? ( And from what I have seen here I respect your build quality)

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Given that this little boat did a trans Atlantic, the comments about seaworthiness, need for modern survival gear are kind of interesting. Is it the boat or the sailor?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  5. #40
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    In this case it's the sailor.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Given that this little boat did a trans Atlantic, the comments about seaworthiness, need for modern survival gear are kind of interesting. Is it the boat or the sailor?
    Centennial has proven her self a incredibly capable little craft, and True, Ben, Johansen did make a 66 day trans Atlantic crossing in her sans any "modern" saftey gear... I simply feel that when testing this short ship again for the first time in 100?+- years It would only be prudent to take advantage of the las 140 years worth of saftey gear innovation... with the hope that it never gets used

    I, and i doubt any on this forum, have any illusions that we are the equal to Alfred Johansen when it comes to handling a dory in rough weather.
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 08-13-2016 at 03:09 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Dan, man, 20-25 knot winds create, conservatively, 3-5 foot seas in the coastal Atlantic.Probably whitecaps. You really consider those conditions ideal for such a boat? ( And from what I have seen here I respect your build quality)

    Kevin
    thats the ticket! broad reaching in 20+- kts with a 4-6ft ft swell running and a little white on the chests now and then would be Centennials element, thats where she will come alive! anything less could be easily handled in an Alpha or gunning dory.

    I should hope I get the opportunity to experience such conditions in her offspring!
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 08-13-2016 at 03:10 PM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    me too
    whatever rocks your boat

  9. #44
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Interesting.
    What are you using for ballast? How much in weight?
    thats one of the few BIG design decisions I need to make on this build.

    the original Centennial has a oak board and iron ballast secured in the bilge. Johnson was rolled at one point in his trip and it took 20+- munites before he was able to right the boat... I want to try and remedy that. Like I said in the OP this boat will be used extensively for day sailing but I do not only want to retain Centennials Blue water abilities but also improve them.

    the two major design changes I am considering are...
    1; a longer heavily weighted centerboard that can be locked down when sailing off shore.

    2; eliminateing the bulkhead at station 5 and building a low volume self bailing foot well for the cockpit, and a crowned cabin top that can be installed over the "cargo" hatch for off shore adventures.

    the foot well would reduce the water weight in the event of a roll or being swept stem to stern, the crowned cabin top would add to the dry accomodations and ad flotation up high making the hull more unstable when inverted...


  10. #45
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    wow ok the enormity of this short ship just became very real... I'm going to need a bigger shop!

    set up the frames today to make sure things are fitting together and fairing up... off Gardners pages an looking at her face to face, this is a huge dory


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Are you planning any water tight compartments Daniel? It may be worth running the stability numbers past a Naval Architect ..... just in the interests of staying alive.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)



    Don't know if you have decided how to plank the sides, but on the Instant Boats site there is a good-looking model called the Friendship Clam dory with lapstrake planking. It puts a slight curvature in the sides, which would add stability for sailing.
    You've probably already seen it.
    Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
    When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
    And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
    And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
    Job 38: 8-11

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    A fascinating project. I remember seeing the original Centennial when I was a kid. It didn't look like a comfortable way to travel then, and I'm not sure I've changed my mind. Have you mocked up your revised cockpit to see how comfortable you can get in there? How deep is it, can you stretch out when needed, brace your feet when she heels? Will you have to sit on deck to windward when things pick up? How might that work?

    Making these types of boats for use a few hours at a time is one thing -- planning to spend days on board is something else again. I'll be following with interest.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff C View Post
    Don't know if you have decided how to plank the sides, but on the Instant Boats site there is a good-looking model called the Friendship Clam dory with lapstrake planking. It puts a slight curvature in the sides, which would add stability for sailing.
    You've probably already seen it.
    --- But then it wouldn't be a replica of Centennial = not a Banks dory. At that point you just deck over and bulkhead a Swampscott dory or a Lowell surf dory. -- W

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Are you planning any water tight compartments Daniel? It may be worth running the stability numbers past a Naval Architect ..... just in the interests of staying alive.
    --- Am I wrong in thinking that Centennial already had watertight bulkheads, at least the one between cockpit and cabin? (as watertight as they could be made in those days). -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    About the same time there was Fox based on a Staten Island skiff. From the account of Harbo and Samuelson, the ends had water tight compartments. She too survived a roll over, in which they lost many of their supplies. Fortunately the Atlantic was pretty well populated with sailing vessels in those days and they got resupplied.
    Not meaning to get picky, but because she and her builder are pretty close to heart so to speak (Jersey shore lapstrake history),.... Fox was built by the Seaman boat works of branch port (Long Branch) NJ. She was custom built, a double ended version of Seaman's pound boat. And Harbo and Samuelson were from Highlands. Nothing to do with Staten Island.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    --- Am I wrong in thinking that Centennial already had watertight bulkheads, at least the one between cockpit and cabin? (as watertight as they could be made in those days). -- Wade
    I don't know.....which is why I asked , but they could be made very well double diagonal planking with painted cloth between the layers. They were made that way quite recently.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Not meaning to get picky, but because she and her builder are pretty close to heart so to speak (Jersey shore lapstrake history),.... Fox was built by the Seaman boat works of branch port (Long Branch) NJ. She was custom built, a double ended version of Seaman's pound boat. And Harbo and Samuelson were from Highlands. Nothing to do with Staten Island.
    Absolutely right. The Staten Island skiffs were mostly built in Jersey, bottom board boats like the Seabright skiffs. All of these shore boats were built the same way, with the transom sterned ones still being bottom board boats. I'd forgotten that FOX was a double ender. Building style was the same over on the Atlantic side of Long Island. These boats were exported to the Chesapeake where they were known as Yankee Skiffs.
    Ben Fuller
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Absolutely right. The Staten Island skiffs were mostly built in Jersey, bottom board boats like the Seabright skiffs. All of these shore boats were built the same way, with the transom sterned ones still being bottom board boats. I'd forgotten that FOX was a double ender. Building style was the same over on the Atlantic side of Long Island. These boats were exported to the Chesapeake where they were known as Yankee Skiffs.
    any photos out there of FOX?

    google is my friend...


  20. #55
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    There are few pictures of the original Fox. The two that you posted are some of the better ones. What ever became of Fox is lost in history. I have always thought one of the more interesting things about the whole history of Fox is that when she was built in 1896, Harold "Pappy" Seaman as a young teenager helped his father build Fox ( bucked rivets). Then in 1975 when the Long Branch Ice Boat and Yacht Club built the replica of Fox, it was again "Pappy" Seaman (at the age of 94) who helped draw her lines and build her.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Just an update here's where I'm at, time to start making some design decisions re Centerboard weight and construction, and decking layout...
    should have the sheer planks on and the boat off the strong back in a couple weeks, the sides are so high right now I need to stand on something to reach any tools inside the boat!


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Did Fox also have a box keel?

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Just an update here's where I'm at, time to start making some design decisions re Centerboard weight and construction, and decking layout...
    should have the sheer planks on and the boat off the strong back in a couple weeks, the sides are so high right now I need to stand on something to reach any tools inside the boat!


    Looking good. I guess you need one of those 6-year-old "helpers" to retrieve the tools. So you must have sat in it by now to get a feel for the volume. How's it seem?
    -Dave

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    Looking good. I guess you need one of those 6-year-old "helpers" to retrieve the tools. So you must have sat in it by now to get a feel for the volume. How's it seem?
    honestly I havent been inside since I bent the bottom onto the strong back, but standing at the rail about where you'll sit at the helm she seems huge, in the shop, and imaginng sitting there with a empty blue horizion she seems ridicusly small.

    the interior volume is not huge for a 20' boat, centennial is only 38 inches wide on the bottom and 5.5' at the rail so the boat looks like it will sail well under a full press of sail, there is a huge amount of reserve stability in her high sides and I expect she will spend most of her time with the rail right down near the water. I think a heavy centerboard will be put to good use by this hull and have pretty much settled on a steel board 1"thick by 16"wide and about 5.5 ft long, thats around 250 lbs of steel which I plan on being able to lock down when sailing off shore.

    the interior is going to be challenging, with no cabin, sleeping below decks will be like sleeping in a station wagon, room to roll over but no sitting head room... except for under the deck hatch which would be closed when sailing off shore.

    It looks like there is room for 4 to sleep with little else below decks, or room for 2 bunks and a small ice chest and galley box and some hanging storeag room, which is the set up I am tending to go with.., but the boat will also be used by family members so it would be nice to make room for 4 to sleep aboard if the opportunity arose...


    there will be alot of mocking up and testing the lay out to get it right... I'm thinking of building the deck pretty close to original lay out of johansen's boat and using it that way this coming season to test it out... I can always cut the deck hatch larger or add a cabin structure at a later date.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Where would the dagger/centerboard trunk be in relation to bunks? Dividing the sleep area? Slightly behind? -- Would love to see a crude sketch of the proposed planform arrangement. -- Wade

  26. #61
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    the centerboard will be at the level of the bunks which are raised 14" off the bottom and then the box divides the sleeping area for 2 feet at the foot of the bunks as it connects to the deck.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Thanks. I keep forgetting the size/depth of this hull! -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Thanks. I keep forgetting the size/depth of this hull! -- Wade
    20' x 6' at the rail 3' on the bottom x 35-40" of freeboard / head room under the deck.

    there will be 3'9"- 4' sitting head room under the cargo hatch with the cabin top on... so just barely sitting head room, I plan on a good size boom tent for at anchor if sleeping aboard.

    the 20' sounds long but this is a banks dory hull so there is a fair amount of lenght tied up in her overhangs and sharp tombstone transom, so she has a little more useable space than a scamp... but also more speed potential as her waterlines and fairly fine and her hull should be capable of handling a sea where other higher volume hull shapes begin to pound and get uncomfortable.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by wtarzia View Post
    Thanks. I keep forgetting the size/depth of this hull! -- Wade
    in other words ... Ginormous!


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Despite the heavy build, me thinks a fair bit of ballast might be needed for comfort. Must be picture distortion, but it looks like the bottom of the hull is arching over that forward bearer.
    Let me know when you are "coming over" and i will be sure to meet you in Falmouth......Cornwall.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Nice boat! Will you be using the original gaff sloop rig, or something else?

  32. #67
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Despite the heavy build, me thinks a fair bit of ballast might be needed for comfort. Must be picture distortion, but it looks like the bottom of the hull is arching over that forward bearer.
    Let me know when you are "coming over" and i will be sure to meet you in Falmouth......Cornwall.
    Centennial like all bank dorys is a fairly narrow deep hull, that is why bank dories never pound in a head sea, they slice through it rather than banging and booming their way along. A fair bit of ballast will be put to good use when she is under a full press of sail in 20kt breeze working to windward against a steep breaking sea. As her hull heels the bouyancy of her high topsides will come into play and she will harden up big time as her rail approaches the water. I anticipate it will be in this attitude that she will be most comfortable with both jibs drawing and her huge 16' boom sheeted in hard, bowling along with a roaring bow wave, rail and water ways just awash, and a mountain of water, her stern wave, hissing and lapping along her transom.

    good eye to spot that major hink in her bottom, but it has nothing to do with the bunker just below it and everything to do with the garboard plank just above it...!

    as far as a jaunt to the other side of the pond, while I'm very sure Centennial is quite capable, I'm less sure about myself

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    Nice boat! Will you be using the original gaff sloop rig, or something else?
    Thanks photo!

    yes, it's so frustrating to see a nice dory built to John Gardners or some other plans... with a totally non traditional sail rig on it... then people complain Oh it does not sail right! it's not performing well, and I even put on a "better" rig than the traditional rig!!!

    if only they had followed the plans for the rig as closely as they followed the plans for the hull the boat would have performed superbly.

    But... with Centennial the rig is so unusual, so interesting, such a signature that to build her with anything else, anything less, is not an option in my mind. I have her mast, stub mast/tabernackle, gaff, 16' boom!!! and bow sprit made up already waiting to be installed. I still need to see about sails... one of the few major issues I have yet to address for a July Launch.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    huge breaking seas, Gale force winds, mileage limitations
    It is quite the point of a small boat transatlantic adventure that the above risks and challenges might be confronted and navigated successfully. This is why Blackburn's voyages are so well remembered today and why adventurers continue to contemplate them. It is a question of nerve, akin, I'd say, to a risky summit attempt in balky weather. That the navigator might be confronted with myriad challenges in his tiny vessel and to survive them, limited as such, is the basic allure of this kind of adventuring and why it's holds the interest and wonder of sailors.

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