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Thread: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

  1. #1
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    Default 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Hi all just starting work on Centennial an interesting craft that should hopefully make a pretty nice little trailer sailer.

    The original Centennial carried Alfred Johnson of Gloucester Ma across the Atlantic in 1876 to celebrate the centennial of the United States. Very cool dory
    I will be tweaking this boat slightly for day sailing and more comfortable camp cruising, but this build should be every bit as capable as the original with a proper fitting out and the possability of blue water trips to Province Town, Nova Scotia, Bermuda or beyond...


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Ah, see, on outdoor work I got you. I got two posts buried knee deep so far apart near my shaving horse under the shade of three 60 year old Fuyu persimmon trees. Even on the days in the teens (that's hundred teens) it still ain't so bad under there. Not a great place to paint, though.

    I think the original was a pretty boat, and can't wait to see yours.

    You using pine?

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    You , ah , ever been on the ocean?

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I retread my post. I declared my envy for your neat little shop on another thread. Not sure it was clear, that I envy your shop space, but when I work outdoors, I have it nice.

    I like your work, Daniel.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I think "blue water capability" is probably more a testament to Johnson's sailing skill than it is to Centennial's design. I would re-ask Wizbang's question.
    Everything changes . Everything is connected . Pay attention

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Is this the third thread just started on this boat? Or do you keep changing the title and where it is Dan?

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    He has the same first post in B&R

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Is this the third thread just started on this boat? Or do you keep changing the title and where it is Dan?
    2 threads... one in designs to outline design changes to the original craft, and one in building... because I've started building it ... feel free to ask questions about the design of Johnson's original Centennial or modifications I am making in this thread.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    The Iconic Original... resting in all her splendor in the Cape Anne Historical Society.



    And afloat some time arnd the turn o' the century

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Interesting.
    What are you using for ballast? How much in weight?

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Are you building to the lines to Gardner's interpretation?


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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Ah, see, on outdoor work I got you. I got two posts buried knee deep so far apart near my shaving horse under the shade of three 60 year old Fuyu persimmon trees. Even on the days in the teens (that's hundred teens) it still ain't so bad under there. Not a great place to paint, though.

    I think the original was a pretty boat, and can't wait to see yours.

    You using pine?

    Peace,
    Robert
    sounds like a great spot. incredible the amount of cool that can collect under trees even on a hot day.
    we havent seen hundreds here in years, mabey once a decade, but high 80's and low ninties are common... but so are low 80's...
    there is some shade against the house but I do most of my work in the morning or eve anyway... once the bottom is cleated together most everything shifts into the shop.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    It is nice. I think my wife is really happy because I moved my "shop" off the screen porch! Course, I mostly make dumb little boxes and art stuff for money. I made a little plane from broken coaming scraps yesterday while I hid inside.

    We generally get a few weeks of hundreds, but they are dry, it ain't all muggy, per se. The trade off is out mild winters. We get cold, hard freezes and all, but it's so dry we generally don't get snow. Another 1000 up the hill is where that all starts.


    Boy do I know mornings and evenings. I'm waiting for 0700 so I can run the planer, but it's already 74 degrees...

    Party on, eh?

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Good for you, Dan, I was always interested in that boat. -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I'm excited about this boat Wade, the History surrounding this design is what originally drew me to her... Before the R2AK, before the Newport to Bermuda Race, before Seabird Yawl, before Spray... there was Centennial. The significance and pioneering achievement of Gloucester Sailors and small boats in opening the possability of Solo Blue Water voyaging can not be over stated.

    the Fact that this Iconic small craft is a banks dory is just the icing on the cake

    I expect this hull and rig to make an excellent Daysailer camp cruiser for local exploration.

    the hull is large long and should perform well, 100 mile days should be quite common with fair, moderate winds, and this hull should be very capable of handling whatever weather we happen to encounter day sailing and camp cruising along the Newengland coast.

    I am considering design/ Ballast mods to make this boat self righting, something that Johnson had to wait 20+- minutes for when he was rolled by a Monster sized breaking sea 20+- miles off the Cornish Coast...

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I recon a 100 mile day will the exception.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Dan, it is the starting point for all those wonderful expedition row-sail-sleep-aboard boats we are seeing now (i.e., the Angus outrigger row-sailer). I love this re-invention of the "poor man's yacht" (another historical starting point with the late 19th cen. canoes) and it is appropriate to re-imagine Centennial at this point. Sailing speed/performance can take a second seat, ultimately, because it is about the versatility and fun when there is no race. When sleep-aboard is not on the menu, the Banks dory will let the sailor come ashore or pretty near-shore nearly anywhere in a pinch. I understand the sailing limitations of a Banks dory, at least going upwind, but having sailed a 4x8 rectangular scow for 5 days camp-cruising (even upwind a few times), I learned the lesson of relativity, as applied to recreational boating. Eager to see how this all works out. -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    You , ah , ever been on the ocean?
    yeah a few times... you?

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I recon a 100 mile day will the exception.
    Johnson speaks of some in his writings on the trip, I am looking forward to the ability to just point her bow across the wind and out to sea and sail for as long as I like, mabey Stellwagen bank or P Town, or a jaunt through the Canal to the Vineyard and Nantucket... But I'm most looking forward to exploring Casco Bay and mabey some day making it up around Fundy or Novi

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    We made some 40 and 50 mile days in our 8 foot long boxes (12 hour days, good wind, balanced lugs, uncomfortably sitting on a side-deck), so I think the revived Centennial will do OK mileage-wise for the average camp-cruiser. -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I reckon the ocean will be the exception

    http://www.boatinternational.com/yac...-yachts--25861

    I also reckon luck had a lot to do with small boat survival on the high seas, i.e. even after all the best preparation and seamanship you can still get blindsided by that ol' 10 metre breaking wave from a different direction. It makes you wish for a fully decked boat hanging on the hook in an idyllic bay somewhere else!





    Not me thanks!
    Last edited by Paul G.; 07-30-2016 at 06:24 PM.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Those Danes are pretty good sailors.


    If you go through the Cape Cod Canal you'll need a motor. Motor sailing is allowed but tacking is not. http://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Portal...de2Apr2015.pdf

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    I reckon the ocean will be the exception

    http://www.boatinternational.com/yac...-yachts--25861

    I also reckon luck had a lot to do with small boat survival on the high seas, i.e. even after all the best preparation and seamanship you can still get blindsided by that ol' 10 metre breaking wave from a different direction. It makes you wish for a fully decked boat hanging on the hook in an idyllic bay somewhere else!





    Not me thanks!
    Incredible stuff that... and Just what Centennial was designed to handle. Perhaps John Gardner said it best in his opening paragraph of the Chapter giving this old dory's lines...

    "Do old boats dream dreams? Pulled out on dry land, snugly tucked away on shore, do their decrepit timbers still shiver faintly, remembering old blasts, the sickening pitch of mountainous seas, the gale's maniacal scream? Who knows? But ghostly memories do eminate from their ancient bones with power to beguile the viewer, and coming into the presence of this patriarch of dories the visitor is moved. She is the Centennial."

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Those Danes are pretty good sailors.


    If you go through the Cape Cod Canal you'll need a motor. Motor sailing is allowed but tacking is not. http://www.nae.usace.army.mil/Portal...de2Apr2015.pdf
    Some folks have rowed through. Others have gotten a tow.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    Some folks have rowed through. Others have gotten a tow.
    at 8 +- miles rowing through is a very real option if the wind is not cooperating... just got to wait for the tide. I dont plan a motor for this build but a tow if traveling in company with a vessel with a motor is also an option... how ever it is done Row, Sail, or Tow a following tide is Huge bonus thankfully tides are pretty predictable.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Rowing through the Cape Cod canal is illegal.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I think she'll be a lovely minimalist cruiser. If you get her as far as Maine I'll be impressed. Nova Scotia? Very impressed.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Stopped in for a look at her a few years back. I was pretty impressed with the compartmentation and the small cockpit. Not hard to see how he survived a roll over. About the same time there was Fox based on a Staten Island skiff. From the account of Harbo and Samuelson, the ends had water tight compartments. She too survived a roll over, in which they lost many of their supplies. Fortunately the Atlantic was pretty well populated with sailing vessels in those days and they got resupplied.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    On the topic of appropriate design in breaking waves - I have just finished reading Fritz Fenger's "Alone in the Caribbean". His Yakaboo sailing canoe design took the breaking chop with apparent ease.
    How much did the canoe ends with overhangs fore and aft contribute to its ability to do this? (Granted, he seldom had to run dead downwind)

    And would a low volume stern also be the prefered thing for crossing a river bar with breaking waves or beaching through surf?

    My (very inexperienced) gut tells me that it would - allowing the a more gradual lifting of the stern with subsequent less likelyhood of the bow digging in. Am I even in the ballpark with this reasoning?

    In the case of beaching through surf where there is less likelyhood of running into the next wave and where surfing/catching the wave might even be desired - would the stern and bow design be any different?

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeyfox View Post
    On the topic of appropriate design in breaking waves - I have just finished reading Fritz Fenger's "Alone in the Caribbean". His Yakaboo sailing canoe design took the breaking chop with apparent ease.
    How much did the canoe ends with overhangs fore and aft contribute to its ability to do this? (Granted, he seldom had to run dead downwind)

    And would a low volume stern also be the prefered thing for crossing a river bar with breaking waves or beaching through surf?

    My (very inexperienced) gut tells me that it would - allowing the a more gradual lifting of the stern with subsequent less likelyhood of the bow digging in. Am I even in the ballpark with this reasoning?

    In the case of beaching through surf where there is less likelyhood of running into the next wave and where surfing/catching the wave might even be desired - would the stern and bow design be any different?
    I would say no. No point having a stern that wont lift and get swamped from the stern. Most beach boats designed for surf use have pretty much bouyant ends, the aim being to get to the beach, not get swamped or dumped in the surf line, which can extend some distance in some places. Always some exceptions though.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I have heard the argument before, though, that large volume in a stern increases the risk of a broach. An argument against similarly fine ends is that such a hull contributes to hobby-horsing; however, changing the volumes a bit reduces this tendency; the tombstone transom on a Banks dory is interesting in this regard -- not enough to induce broach, but different enough volume to the bow to dampen hobby-horsing? The rocker curve would participate in these effects; dories tend to increase the rocker toward the stern, I think? -- Wade

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    They have a stern with enough bouyancy to lift, but a full bow with enough bouyancy not to get pushed under (generally) which kind of acts as a natrual brake, the severe rocker in some models gives faster steerage, but hobby-horsing will always be an issue with a boat with healthy rocker, unless it weighed down enough that its ends are well immersed, but any boat riding surf is going to rock to some degree. There are some flat keeled boats from the UK east coast that were used in/through surf, so no hard and fast rules, boats adapted to local conditions mostly.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    I think she'll be a lovely minimalist cruiser. If you get her as far as Maine I'll be impressed. Nova Scotia? Very impressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Stopped in for a look at her a few years back. I was pretty impressed with the compartmentation and the small cockpit. Not hard to see how he survived a roll over. About the same time there was Fox based on a Staten Island skiff. From the account of Harbo and Samuelson, the ends had water tight compartments. She too survived a roll over, in which they lost many of their supplies. Fortunately the Atlantic was pretty well populated with sailing vessels in those days and they got resupplied.

    I'm building to the Gardners lines set with a few tweeks based on my own observations of centennial at the Cape Anne Historical society... so the hull design of 1876 banks dory will remain unchanged, the build is traditional construction, Pine on oak and I'm building to the heavier side of the scantligns that Gardner recorded, the bottom is 1 1/4 inch thick... this is a Massive little ship!, it is a bigger dory bottom than anything I have worked on.

    The design choices I have to make are in the layout, foils and rig... the two biggest changes I'm considering to make this a more useful daysailer/ campcruiser are

    1 leaving out the bulkhead at the #5 frame, this would leave a HUGE amount more room below deck for sleeping, Johnson himself complained about the cramped quarters... too short to streach out.

    2 going with a longer narrower centerboard that will not stand as high in the hull as the original, the original trunk is sole to ceiling in Centennial, Im thinking I might get away with a trunk 18 inches high and a large sleeping platform above that with storage below...?


    thoughts? I dont see these changes as Essential I may just build her exactly as Johnson did.
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 08-05-2016 at 08:56 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    I have my doubts about traditional dory construction for a trailer sailor. Stacked up on the deck of a fishing schooner is one thing, sitting on a trailer under a tarp through a New England Winter is another. Surmountable with misting and hosing a week or two before launch, but not fun.

    As for seaworthyness, I doubt Dan is considering Winter North Atlantic conditions. Rounding Capes Elizabeth, Anne and maybe Schoodic in Summer and early Fall is probably Dan's envelope, with an ear to the forecast. I've sailed out to the Isles of Shoals and around Boone Island in a much less seaworthy, but much more weatherly boat. Nova Scotia maybe, hugging the coast, then dashing across Fundy with a good weather window. Bermuda and back requires very deep faith in one's personal angel.

    Hundred mile days are a fantasy, unless going watch and watch 24/7 with a stiff soldier's breeze. That requires competent crew as foolhardy as the skipper. Good luck with that.

    Nothing wrong with a high aspect centerboard, with a good foil shape. It may be more important for accommodations than speed.

    Allan
    And the Binnacle-bats wore water-proof hats
    As they danced in the sounding sea.

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    Default Re: 140 yr old Trans-Atlantic shoal draft (trailer sailer)

    Happy to see this finally coming together Dan, you've been daydreaming of her for years. You know I've been eyeing the Provincetown run for a while now.

    Quote Originally Posted by photocurio View Post
    I think she'll be a lovely minimalist cruiser. If you get her as far as Maine I'll be impressed. Nova Scotia? Very impressed.
    Impressed if she goes from Newburyport to ME, which people do in small dinky plastic kayaks on a regular basis? Woof. You're a doubter, for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Binnacle Bat View Post
    Hundred mile days are a fantasy, unless going watch and watch 24/7 with a stiff soldier's breeze. That requires competent crew as foolhardy as the skipper. Good luck with that.

    Allan
    *AHEM*, Allen, *AHEM*

    Speaking of which, when are you coming to the coast to join us with your canoe for a day of punting on Plum Island Sound?

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