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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #3116
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I would bet you are going to have a challenge clamping it in place.
    I haven't done anything like this, so I'm rather talking out my... ear, but it strikes me that just working with a piece of wood that big, under that kind of heat and tension, in a space that is rather limited, and with makeshift cleats to hold it, might result in not just a lot of work for the job but maybe enough struggle that the results are inferior.

    In other words, fighting the silly beggar into place will be a lot like work, and in the end it might win.

    Aside from the experience of steaming it in, does a single piece of steamed-in wood have any significant advantage over a laminated clamp?

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    I would bet you are going to have a challenge clamping it in place. There is going to be a lot of bend and twist needed over your twelve foot run and 1 3/4" x 5" is not an insubstantial piece of wood. Just pulling it in far enough to be able to screw in cleats to hold it will be interesting.
    Ok, you are convincing me. Almost. If I make up the shelf from two pieces the amount of bend in each piece is a lot less. Here's how it looks from above:



    I'm intending to place the aft edge of the deck just aft of the rudder post. That's about 14' from the pilothouse. The first 8' or so of that is almost straight. The aft part has more curve but I think the depth of the bend would be only a foot or so. Seems manageable? The twist might be more of a challenge though.


    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    What are we building? Battleships?
    The original decks were heavily built for sure. The old beams were around 4" wide by 6" deep in the center. I might go lighter on the beams.

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Not my choice (Chris) but it depends on how they are spaced and what goes on top.
    Yes... ok, bridge to be crossed when in any case. Need to make beam shelves first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    I haven't done anything like this, so I'm rather talking out my... ear, but it strikes me that just working with a piece of wood that big, under that kind of heat and tension, in a space that is rather limited, and with makeshift cleats to hold it, might result in not just a lot of work for the job but maybe enough struggle that the results are inferior.

    In other words, fighting the silly beggar into place will be a lot like work, and in the end it might win.

    Aside from the experience of steaming it in, does a single piece of steamed-in wood have any significant advantage over a laminated clamp?

    Alex
    Not really Alex. Laminating would definitely be easier and at least as strong if not stronger. I could save the steam bending for an easier project I suppose, like trim for the cabin top edges or something.

  3. #3118
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ...
    Not really Alex. Laminating would definitely be easier and at least as strong if not stronger. I could save the steam bending for an easier project I suppose, like trim for the cabin top edges or something.
    While I don't play a boatbuilder on TV - this would be my choice. Stronger and easier.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #3119
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I could save the steam bending for an easier project I suppose, like trim for the cabin top edges or something.
    My steam bending experience is entirely with bending oak and WRC cabin trim. Maybe I'm a wuss, but I was just as happy to start with something so small and forgiving. Steaming in a big clonkin' chunk of AYC clamp sounds like rather more first-experience project than I'd want.

    I don't mean to be a killjoy, but "stronger and easier" often translates into "getting under way sooner."

    Alex

  5. #3120
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    With some futzing around clamps can be made with all thread. Poke some holes in the planking and put a backing board on the outside with the all thread run through and nuted with washers. Inside use cleats with slots.

    You will need help putting the shelf in and making it hit the marks so your deck is level. Plus pushing it in place and clamping it up pretty fast while it's hot.

    Or you could make it easier on yourself a pull a few planks off and just use clamps.
    Last edited by navydog; 08-07-2018 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #3121
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    This might be of interest.

    13EF9640-9F2A-4657-9F0D-258FB1797BF0.jpg

    Taken from Lloyds of London Classification and Construction of Wood and Composite Yachts.
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  7. #3122
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    That page is for cabin tops. Chris will be building a work platform.

  8. #3123
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    Wow I'm still digesting all the new posts!

    Without getting into Naval engineering stress factors and all that.

    Seems to me the good ole standard for span with construction Lumber is pretty handy to go by.

    2x4 - 4ft, 2x6 - 6ft and so on. And if they are supported in the center on the keel, it probably cuts all span load in half again.

    If the boat were on the hard you could steam & over bend them on the outside.
    You could also clamp sticks on the inside or the outside of the rail height and then bend steamed lumber around those. ( kind of like if the frames were sticking up above the gunnel) I think I would just go with two or three lams
    for those 12ft supports though.

    I'm sure whatever you decide on will work, as you're not going to be carrying tons of fish or thousands of pounds of wet nets on deck.

    How about clamping the new deck beams between 2 of the old, run a power plane across them all ? Probably faster than the bandsaw or planing each one individually to make the crown.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  9. #3124
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    That page is for cabin tops. Chris will be building a work platform.

    Youíre right. Not much difference though.

    BB4E297B-08C3-4DC0-A00F-BC9357A87BA5.jpg

    Iíd probably go a little heavier, although thatís pretty close to what I did, but I added a center post under the deck. Iíd take these as minimum, even still 4x6 seems like way overkill for a picnic boat and more expensive too.
    -Jim

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    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

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  10. #3125
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    Uh...be more like "Leisure deck"
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Taking the bevel and then steam bending the shelf solid could be great practice for planking. With the advantage that any problems could be more easily fixed/redone as compared to planking.

  12. #3127
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Hmmm - well, lots to think about here for sure. Jim, I agree that the original beams are heavy but they were also spaced a lot farther apart than Lloyds specifies. More like 20" rather than 13" (every other frame). But that's still overbuilt and it would be a lot easier to work with 4/4 lumber than anything larger so I'll probably go with 2" x 6" (or so) at the crown with spacing at every other frame. Add a couple of posts to support the deck in the middle and I think it will be plenty solid.

    Then the question remains about the beam shelf. I'll probably end up laminating it for all the reasons we've discussed. But I'm still tempted by the challenge of steam bending it. I'm a ways off from doing it either way though so I'll have plenty of time to think about the options.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Uh...be more like "Leisure deck"
    True, so figure 6 adults on deck, a keg and 100lbs of ice plus food. Probably about 1500 lbs.

  14. #3129
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    I would just look at that decks on recreational boats see what's holding them up. I don't see that Chris can go wrong on this.

    Chris, wouldn't it be amazing if everybody on this thread showed up at your boat one day? Lol
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post

    Chris, wouldn't it be amazing if everybody on this thread showed up at your boat one day? Lol
    If everyone showed up he will need a barge in tow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    If everyone showed up he will need a barge in tow.
    Sounds like a plan! Pull the barge and boat over to a remote island with tall spruce trees. Send the crew to take down the trees, another crew to take the trees down to the beach, another crew to load them on the barge another crew to turn the trees into usable Lumber then hand them over to Chris for the steam box...

    I didn't see a "no cutting no trespassing" sign did you?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  17. #3132
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Sounds like a plan! Pull the barge and boat over to a remote island with tall spruce trees. Send the crew to take down the trees, another crew to take the trees down to the beach, another crew to load them on the barge another crew to turn the trees into usable Lumber then hand them over to Chris for the steam box...

    I didn't see a "no cutting no trespassing" sign did you?
    You left out the "let them air dry for a year or so" part... We'll drink a lot of Chris' booze in that amount of time!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris, I have ripped 2" rough sawn to 1-3/4" square and bent a two ply lamination for your deck beams. You may orient grain to maximum effect and in your open situation laminate in place utilizing temporary strongbacks as necessary. Dry fit all first with clamps and screws and follow with a glue up at your own pace. I would suggest max 12-13" o/c, which should handle your spans effectively, particularly if you use a glued ply sub-deck.Clear tight-grain stock is your requirement here; Dfir or YC would be your local preference.
    Good luck with it! / Jim

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You left out the "let them air dry for a year or so" part... We'll drink a lot of Chris' booze in that amount of time!
    Oh, my plan was to sit on the deck and drink beer as the scenery went by. Not to be cutting any trees down. I don't like involvement with police with anything more than speeding tickets.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Hmmm - well, lots to think about here for sure. Jim, I agree that the original beams are heavy but they were also spaced a lot farther apart than Lloyds specifies. More like 20" rather than 13" (every other frame). But that's still overbuilt and it would be a lot easier to work with 4/4 lumber than anything larger so I'll probably go with 2" x 6" (or so) at the crown with spacing at every other frame. Add a couple of posts to support the deck in the middle and I think it will be plenty solid.

    Then the question remains about the beam shelf. I'll probably end up laminating it for all the reasons we've discussed. But I'm still tempted by the challenge of steam bending it. I'm a ways off from doing it either way though so I'll have plenty of time to think about the options.
    One piece of advice from Marchaj no less in his book Seaworthiness is that she should be able to take a dollop of green water on the deck, similar to you dropping onto the deck from a height, without there being any cracking noises or much flexing.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Good point, but it should be able fill the deck and not go below, just out the scuppers.

  22. #3137
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    ...she should be able to take a dollop of green water on the deck, similar to you dropping onto the deck from a height, without there being any cracking noises or much flexing.
    I like that. That's a really good, practical standard to build to.

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Sheesh - I leave for a few hours and come back to find that you all are planning a party on a barge - and with a logging expedition as well!? Hmmm - a party when I get the deck done isn't a bad idea though. I have met a few people who have followed the thread over the last couple of years. That's always enjoyable and they have generally been kind enough not to point out the more obvious failings in my work when they see the boat in person!

    As for the decks - Jim, I think laminating the deck beams is probably a good idea. Again, not the way it was done originally but it would be stronger that way while using less wood. I might be able to used original beams as a bending jig for that project.

    Nick, thanks for the rule of thumb on deck strength. That sounds like a good standard to me too. And navydog, yes - large scuppers are definitely part of the plan as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    You left out the "let them air dry for a year or so" part... We'll drink a lot of Chris' booze in that amount of time!
    Tree to steam box don't wait! Stack & sticker the rest lol
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Ok, this is how the deck beams on a B.C. fishing boat are done by someone who knows how:









    Photos poached from James Roberts' Facebook Page. This is Loreburn, a 40' troller that James is rebuilding in Silva Bay, Gabriola Island B.C. I note that the beams are notched over the shelf where needed. James is a professional with a lifetime of experience. I'm a hopeless amateur with aspirations. But still, this is how I would *like* to build the deck for Petrel. Practicality and ease of building be damned. I'll probably end up laminating everything but the entire time I'm slathering goop on wimpy strips of wood I'll be wishing I was working with big manly timbers like these instead.
    Last edited by cstevens; 08-09-2018 at 10:50 AM.

  26. #3141
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    Art of construction? Or construction of art? I think both would apply!

    Other than the crown of the deck, it doesn't look much different than framing anything else, what are the size of the deck beams?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    It's definitely art Denise. James does beautiful work. I'd guess those beams are just a bit larger than 4" x 4", sawn AYC. The sheer clamp is maybe 6" x 2" and the beam shelf is made up of two pieces, each 2" x 4". Total thickness of the clamp and shelf is around 6". That boat is stout.

  28. #3143
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    I meant to ask earlier, what was the size of the original deck beams on Petrel? if they are still mostly solid but full of nail and screw holes on the top edge, you could certainly, laminate on top of that so you have a new screw or nail edge for the deck. All new deck beams would be very expensive Imo.

    Also, if the ends are rotten, the longer deck beams could be cut into shorter deck beams, then you only need make new deck beams for the ones that are missing,
    Not a new idea I'm sure
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  29. #3144
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    This is Loreburn, a 40' troller that James is rebuilding in Silva Bay, Gabriola Island B.C.
    Whew! That's definitely pr0n.

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    They are pretty similar to the beams on Loreburn. About 4x4 although they are deeper in the center because the bottom edge is flat. You can actually see a couple of them in the overhead photo of Petrel at the top of this page. But I only have two of the originals as the others were removed when the aft cabin was added in the '80s.

  31. #3146
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Whew! That's definitely pr0n.

    Alex
    Think she could "take a dollop of green water on the deck" Alex?

  32. #3147
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Think she could "take a dollop of green water on the deck" Alex?
    Hmm... *May*be...

    Alex

  33. #3148

    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    On the local Craig's List, a guy was selling a turkey cooker as a boiler for steaming. A hey why didn't I think of that, moment.

  34. #3149
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    Beer keg! I had one for years and years that we used when we building canoes I finally got rid of it a couple years ago and here I am going to need to steam some small ribs in the fall but I'll use the wallpaper steamer.

    Beer kegs have a screw in top, very easily used to solder a large piece of pipe or a connector for a large radiator hose that's what we did. We did however use the burner from a turkey fryer
    Quote Originally Posted by Downwindtracker2 View Post
    On the local Craig's List, a guy was selling a turkey cooker as a boiler for steaming. A hey why didn't I think of that, moment.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    They are pretty similar to the beams on Loreburn. About 4x4 although they are deeper in the center because the bottom edge is flat. You can actually see a couple of them in the overhead photo of Petrel at the top of this page. But I only have two of the originals as the others were removed when the aft cabin was added in the '80s.
    Chris you can laminate your beams from 1x or 2x and cut the crown like the originals. This would be the faster method. The beams could be laminated over a jig to set the crown as well. There is more curing time using one jig.

    There us nothing particularly difficult about installing the deck beams. Notice in your last pictures that the beams butt up to frames, nothing in between.
    Last edited by navydog; 08-10-2018 at 03:36 PM.

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