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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #2556
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    Isn't it incredible how far sawdust travels?

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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  2. #2557
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris,
    You can compress the new frame lamination by using short 1"x2" screwed into the old frames across the top of the lamination. When the new frames are cured pull them off and fill the holes. Make sure to drill the holes in the 1x2s the full screw shank diameter so they will pull down.

    Obviously use screws that are the correct lenght and don't drill through the bottom.

  3. #2558
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    I might be too late to the party Chris, but if your particular about getting an exact thickness of 1”, why not glue them up deliberately slightly oversize and run them through the thicknesser or table saw to bring them back down to 1”. (Did I see a thicknesser in the cellar or was I imagining that?)
    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    He's gluing them in place. The above was a test.
    Larks, as Garret notes I am laminating the frames in place. The thickness requirement is because they have to fit in between the hull and the inwale, beam shelf and bilge stringers and I want the fit to be close so that I can fasten those timbers, as well a new beam shelf for the cockpit, to the new frames. I think Alex and Jeff's idea of gluing up all but the last lamination and then sawing the last one to the right thickness from there is a good one.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Isn't it incredible how far sawdust travels?

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Indeed! I do need a bit better dust collection setup though. What I have is a bit cobbled together at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chris,
    You can compress the new frame lamination by using short 1"x2" screwed into the old frames across the top of the lamination. When the new frames are cured pull them off and fill the holes. Make sure to drill the holes in the 1x2s the full screw shank diameter so they will pull down.

    Obviously use screws that are the correct lenght and don't drill through the bottom.
    "Don't drill through the bottom..." Good tip! That's a useful suggestion navydog and I've seen it used before. But in Petrel many of the original frames are so far gone that they wouldn't hold the fasteners for the battens. I think between the staples and a few temporary wedges to go behind the longitudinal timbers and hold things in place there it will all work out. We'll see.

  4. #2559
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Larks, as Garret notes I am laminating the frames in place. The thickness requirement is because they have to fit in between the hull and the inwale, beam shelf and bilge stringers and I want the fit to be close so that I can fasten those timbers, as well a new beam shelf for the cockpit, to the new frames. I think Alex and Jeff's idea of gluing up all but the last lamination and then sawing the last one to the right thickness from there is a good one.



    Indeed! I do need a bit better dust collection setup though. What I have is a bit cobbled together at the moment.



    "Don't drill through the bottom..." Good tip! That's a useful suggestion navydog and I've seen it used before. But in Petrel many of the original frames are so far gone that they wouldn't hold the fasteners for the battens. I think between the staples and a few temporary wedges to go behind the longitudinal timbers and hold things in place there it will all work out. We'll see.
    They only leak when you take them out Chris LOL. I love how Lewis took screws or bolts and ran them through then put em through the other way ...

    I guess it's good that much of what you're making and doing is above the waterline so you can fasten from the outside. I've always wished they would make a really large countersink screw heads for softwood there's some timberlok screws that have a washer head that's pretty shallow but they're not rust proof.

    I've tried for years to collect dust off the table saw I have a 4 inch Hood above it and 4in directly underneath the saw and a 2hp collector. Aand the sawdust still gets all over the place, but it's not as bad as as the band saw

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    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #2560
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Larks, as Garret notes I am laminating the frames in place. The thickness requirement is because they have to fit in between the hull and the inwale, beam shelf and bilge stringers and I want the fit to be close so that I can fasten those timbers, as well a new beam shelf for the cockpit, to the new frames. I think Alex and Jeff's idea of gluing up all but the last lamination and then sawing the last one to the right thickness from there is a good one.



    Indeed! I do need a bit better dust collection setup though. What I have is a bit cobbled together at the moment.



    "Don't drill through the bottom..." Good tip!
    That's a useful suggestion navydog and I've seen it used before.
    It does seem pretty obvious and simple, however having seen a number of boats sitting on the bottom in their slips, it just comes to mind when someone is drilling holes in a boat below the water line. I'm also affected by the 30 pages of self inflicted workers comp injury reports I'd see every month for 20 years. Bassicly I'm just saying, don't be that guy we see on the internet making a huge * up.

  6. #2561
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Larks, as Garret notes I am laminating the frames in place. The thickness requirement is because they have to fit in between the hull and the inwale, beam shelf and bilge stringers and I want the fit to be close so that I can fasten those timbers, as well a new beam shelf for the cockpit, to the new frames. I think Alex and Jeff's idea of gluing up all but the last lamination and then sawing the last one to the right thickness from there is a good one.


    .
    don’t you hate it when people don’t read the whole thread properly.....
    Larks

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  7. #2562
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    don’t you hate it when people don’t read the whole thread properly.....
    It could be worse! about 3 years ago we installed a 4 Zone mini split heat pump system manufactured by Daikin each component came with booklet. ( And yes a lots of grammar mistakes because it a translation to English). And of course my help always just piled up the booklets or handed them to me, but this stuff had to be read, no way around it, even took the "instructions" home and they kept me up late a couple nights.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-09-2018 at 05:59 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  8. #2563
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    It does seem pretty obvious and simple, however having seen a number of boats sitting on the bottom in their slips, it just comes to mind when someone is drilling holes in a boat below the water line. I'm also affected by the 30 pages of self inflicted workers comp injury reports I'd see every month for 20 years. Bassicly I'm just saying, don't be that guy we see on the internet making a huge * up.
    Yep. I couldn't agree more. It's the easy, obvious stuff that always trips you up. When I think of the dumb things I've done, not one of them - not a single one - was because I missed some subtle complex detail. It's all stuff like "don't play basketball and roller skate at the same time", (broken wrist) "don't put the ladder on loose gravel" (broken ankle), "don't drill into the wall without confirming that there isn't a wire there" (that was the the main feeder I drilled into, causing my drill to basically explode. Lucky I was wearing gloves otherwise I might not be here right now). Hmmm. Anyone else seeing a pattern here? Anyway, "don't drill a hole in the bottom of the boat" is a good tip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    don’t you hate it when people don’t read the whole thread properly.....
    Yeah, would you do your homework next time!? Nah, it's a lot to wade through. No reason everyone should have to read every page to be able to weigh in.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    It could be worse! about 3 years ago we installed a 4 Zone mini split heat pump system manufactured by Daikin each component came with booklet. ( And yes a lots of grammar mistakes because it a translation to English). And of course my help always just piled up the booklets or handed them to me, but this stuff had to be read, no way around it, even took the "instructions" home and they kept me up late a couple nights.
    Instructions? What's that? Denise, by any chance were your "help" all men? 'Cause you know we don't read instructions!

  9. #2564
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Laminations milled. Supplies gathered. Beautiful (although not warm) day here in Seattle. Time to see if this plan is going to work!

    Strips staged by length, check:



    Glue-up station organized, check:



    First lamination stapled in...





    ...meh. Stapling to the hull works ok, but still having problems with the lamination breaking right above the bilge stringer. So, try again:



    Starting with staples at the bottom and working up to the bilge stringer, and then pushing it into place from the top and stapling down seems to work better.

    To be continued...

  10. #2565
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    With a couple of first layers stapled in, time to move onto glueing. After some thought I decided to try getting the remaining four laminations in as a group rather than stapling them individually. My reasoning being that they would be less likely to crack if they all went in at once. So... wet out both sides of each lamination with unthickened epoxy, followed by thickened epoxy, and finally stack them together:



    That went well enough. Now to get them in place. Sliding the stack in place was pretty easy. A little guidance past the tricky parts and it settled into place.



    A wedge at the bilge stringer and a couple of clamps kept it from moving around but at first I wasn't really happy with the amount of compression I was able to apply to the stack since I didn't have any staples in it. So I added a few staples in spots. They don't go through the full stack but they did tighten things up a bit.

    After getting the first one in I decided to call it a day, clean up, and think about things a bit. Overall I am not unhappy with my first attempt but I'm sure I can do better for the rest. There are two main issues: One, I do think I need to staple each layer rather than inserting the last four layers in one stack. Doing that will apply more pressure to the glue joint. And two, I was not able to get the frame to lie completely flat against the hull just above the bilge stringer. There is a gap of maybe 1/16" along the forward edge of the frame for 6" or so. I think I can get it a little closer with a few more staples but I don't think there is any way to eliminate the gap entirely without beveling the bottom lamination. On the other hand, the original frames don't fit any better than the new sisters so I'm inclined to not worry about it. Unless anyone thinks that would be a mistake?

    In any case - one down, something like 49 more to do. It's a start.

  11. #2566
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    If it were easy, everyone would do it. Dontcha hate it when people say that?

    The first few are the toughest, but I believe you'll develop a technique. The last few will be perfect! Oh - there I go again...

    I think you've made a great start.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris
    If you want 100% contact across the frame let the top end find it's natural set. The twist in the frame makes them splay. Since the frame material won't edge bend you can have one or the other, but not both straight and twisted. A 2x4 can be clamped diagonally from the stringers above the frame where it requires the most compression. Then use a wedge or blocking under the 2x4 to push the frame down.
    Last edited by navydog; 02-10-2018 at 07:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    great first learning job! nothing went wrong and i bet you found some new tricks on how to do the other 49.

    jim

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    If it were easy, everyone would do it. Dontcha hate it when people say that?

    The first few are the toughest, but I believe you'll develop a technique. The last few will be perfect! Oh - there I go again...

    I think you've made a great start.
    Thanks Garret!

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chris
    If you want 100% contact across the frame let the top end find it's natural set. The twist in the frame makes them splay. Since the frame material won't edge bend you can have one or the other, but not both straight and twisted. A 2x4 can be clamped diagonally from the stringers above the frame where it requires the most compression. Then use a wedge or blocking under the 2x4 to push the frame down.
    A 2x4 clamped diagonally... Yes, that's exactly what I need! I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that myself. And good point about the twist. I did find that I can get it pretty close though. I think that a little bit of pressure in the right point will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by MADOC1 View Post
    great first learning job! nothing went wrong and i bet you found some new tricks on how to do the other 49.

    jim
    Thanks Jim. I'm definitely learning. As Garret notes, I'll probably have the technique down just about the time I'm done...

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    That’s a good start Chris. Little blocks screwed through the frame and into the plank make great clamps in this situation.
    -Jim

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    Red face Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post

    . Yes, that's exactly what I need! I'm embarrassed that I didn't think of that myself.
    Well...it is your first dance, don't feel to bad about it.

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    Woot woot!! Chris! You have me I'm feeling inspired to recanvass my canoe since I have most of the parts made for the Ducker and waiting for spring!

    I know you don't get a whole lot of sunshine over there but you may want to Shield the epoxy and hardener from the Sun,. those containers warm up pretty quick! I'm surprised you're using 205 I thought 206 was the choice earlier on.



    Last edited by DeniseO30; 02-11-2018 at 11:36 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    ^^^ Denise, I think there was some confusion over hardener numbers a few posts back. I went with the 205 fast hardener because it's still pretty cold out (about 40 degrees yesterday). Seems to be working fine. I had plenty of time to get everything glued up. As for sun... Ha! No chance of it warming anything up right now. What little we do get is doled out in tiny glimpses in between the rain clouds. Yesterday was a rare exception. But even so I am storing everything underneath the overhang of that section of deck when not in use.

  19. #2574
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Today was a Dad/kid day for Dash and me, starting with a walk around the the Interbay train yard (a "train investigation" as Dash and I are learning about real and model trains together) and then across the street to Fishermen's Terminal for fish and chips and a dock walk to look at some boats. But I did get down to Petrel briefly this afternoon to check on my frame project. All good there I think. The epoxy cured fine. And here is a closer look at the twist and gap I am dealing with:





    To my eye the new frame looks like it fits pretty much the same as the old one. I'm inclined to say that's good enough. I'm traveling this week so I won't have a chance to make more progress until next weekend but now I think it's just about putting in the time to build the rest of the frames.

  20. #2575
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    It’s certainly better than the old one just as it sits and that old one lasted along time. Carry on, I’d say.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I'm sure it will be fine. Aegir won't come looking for you or anything like that because of it.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    guessing the builder didn't (think it's called) back out the planks? I'm sure Nick will correct me :P lol Looks a more reason to think about re-fastening.. maybe bolts in lieu of screws in the old frames "someday" ?

    Great work Chris!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    It’s certainly better than the old one just as it sits and that old one lasted along time. Carry on, I’d say.
    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    I'm sure it will be fine. Aegir won't come looking for you or anything like that because of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    guessing the builder didn't (think it's called) back out the planks? I'm sure Nick will correct me :P lol Looks a more reason to think about re-fastening.. maybe bolts in lieu of screws in the old frames "someday" ?

    Great work Chris!

    Thanks everyone. Navydog, good to know that my work won't be offending any Norse deities! And Denise, Petrel has already been refastened once. I'm hoping I won't have to do it again. The new frames should help there at least.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Well done Chris. Just on your angle problem if I understand you right, could you cut a few slats with an angle on them to take up the angle?

  25. #2580
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    guessing the builder didn't (think it's called) back out the planks? I'm sure Nick will correct me :P lol Looks a more reason to think about re-fastening.. maybe bolts in lieu of screws in the old frames "someday" ?

    Great work Chris!
    Just so, "backing out" it is.
    With a heavy sawn framed boat you can dub flats on the frames during the final fairing process so that you do not need to back out the plank.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I was looking at the lack of backing, but it only accounts for the gap at the edges of each plank. The gap in the upper plank is caused by the lack of twist in the frame (or it has been pushed off). Looking at the new frame next to the old frame, they both are about 1/8" off in 2" of run. The most twist occurs in the ends of the boat, as Chris works toward the stern it will become more pronounced.

  27. #2582
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Getting back to things here. Regarding the angle and gap: I've been thinking about it a bit more. As a recovering perfectionist (as I've noted before, see this post for example) I am always tempted to go one step further. Or ten steps. But... Petrel is an old fishing boat not a yacht. She was built quickly and to a price. Made to do a job. I could bevel the outer laminations and eliminate that small gap I'm getting, but to what end? Better, I think, to accept Petrel for what she is and focus on making her hull sound than to spend time faffing about with the little things. My goal has always been to restore and maintain her as appropriate for a working vessel. I think that the work I'm doing now meets that standard so I'm going to stick with the current plan for now. It's possible that things will get harder as I reach the ends of the boat, as Navydog points out, but if so I'll adjust as needed.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris,
    Good to see you resolved the it doesn't have to be perfect issue the boat has lasted a long time already.
    If you secure (in any manner) the frame in the bilge, a c-clamp attached to the head of the frame above the sheer can be used as a handle to apply twist as needed.

    Your doing fine and anything you do will help bring the boat into a usable (seaworthy) condition.

  29. #2584
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Eggzactly! Perfection is the enemy of good - and what you are doing is (IMO) good.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Eggzactly! Perfection is the enemy of good - and what you are doing is (IMO) good.
    Let's just call em limber gaps instead of limber holes?

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  31. #2586
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    He'll have to be plenty limber to do all of 'em
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  32. #2587
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    He'll have to be plenty limber to do all of 'em
    Indeed. I was a gymnast once upon a time but I am not so flexible any more. I can usually count on two or three days of back pain for every day spent climbing in and out of the bilge. Tempus fugit and all that. Sigh.

  33. #2588
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Indeed. I was a gymnast once upon a time but I am not so flexible any more. I can usually count on two or three days of back pain for every day spent climbing in and out of the bilge. Tempus fugit and all that. Sigh.
    My brother-in-law came over yesterday with some vanity doors , we're removing the beadboard panels and replacing them with pebbled glass. so I was on my feet for 4 - 5 hours now I'm paying the price oding on Advil LOL

    Sent from my LG-M430 using Tapatalk
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  34. #2589
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Indeed. I was a gymnast once upon a time but I am not so flexible any more. I can usually count on two or three days of back pain for every day spent climbing in and out of the bilge. Tempus fugit and all that. Sigh.
    While I was never a gymnast (or even close), I can relate.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    While I was never a gymnast (or even close), I can relate.
    In a few weeks, good lord willin', I will be 84 years old. You young pups have no idea what's in store for ya....
    PS Sorry for the thread drift...

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