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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #3291
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    There's an idea! Looks like I have a free day in Seattle next month on the 16th if you want a hand.
    -Jim

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    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  2. #3292
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Well, maybe allot of the center cement will lift out, another way to break it is by drilling holes and driving steel wedges in, just like the ancients did!

    Still wondering when the floors became necessary, she didn't have them before right?
    I don't know about necessary? My concern is that the tie between the keel and the rest of the hull is entirely dependent on the fasteners in the frame ends and the garboard rabbet. The frames are notched into the keel and I'm not confident that I could add more fasteners there. Can't easily notch the sisters into the keel either. So adding floors seem like the easiest way to add some support in that area. I have seen a couple of other examples of that being done on similar boats so it's not a unique idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-on-the-Boat View Post
    Chris, I think it's possible you are going about this whole thing the wrong way. You made a huuuuge mistake in purchasing the Skookum Maru, and you should atone by turning her over to me immediately! I had an old Monk sedan decades ago, and after fishing the north pacific on just about every style of boat I think Skookum Maru is the perfectly proportioned NW cruiser. I am very happy for you, and a wee bit jealous...

    On the concrete issue, almost all wooden commercial boats here had a serious amount of concrete poured in the bilge for various reasons. Some were for ballast originally, some are to correct trim when heavy engines or fishing equipment is removed, etc... Generally if the wood was good when the concrete was poured, it will be fine as long as no sweet water was allowed to collect in the area. Somebody much smarter than me explained it over rum in a fishing bar years ago, and I have a hazy recollection that the lime pickled the wood.

    Congratulations on the new addition to your family, and if you make the difficult decision to return to the sanity of owning only one wooden boat, let me know when I can come up and sail the Skookum Maru to her new home..

    Cheers -

    Chris
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-on-the-Boat View Post
    Also Leo did a video on removing the concrete ballast from the Tally Ho that is worth a look.

    -C.
    Ha! Yeah, I hadn't looked at it that way And thanks! Glad you like Skookum Maru. Happy to take you out in her whenever you want. Funny though, I think a GB42 without a flying bridge is about as close as you could get to Skookum Maru without having a copy built. Pretty similar layout, a bit more room where it counts...

    Thanks for the pointer to Leo's video. I'll definitely have to have a look there.

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chris, you need a crew of volunteers to help when Petrel comes out.
    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    There's an idea! Looks like I have a free day in Seattle next month on the 16th if you want a hand.
    That's a good idea. No chance I'm going to do another haulout so soon after getting Skookum Maru back in the water though. For one thing I need to let my various bruises and strains heal first. Three weeks of climbing in and out of various enclosed spaces, hammering on recalcitrant bolts (and occasionally on my hand), sanding the bottom in 85-degree heat, etc. has had an impact. But I'd love to meet up when you are in town.

  3. #3293
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Floors are certainly a good thing and will put that band saw to work Chris!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  4. #3294
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris,
    This article has the placement of floors. Under the engine might be a problem at this point. You might be able to chase down the working drawings. https://www.boatdesign.net/attachmen...ler-jpg.51386/

  5. #3295
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I'm late to the party with using drifts vs. lags for the floor timbers, but I had two thoughts.

    1) I'm pretty sure I've read that one of the Herreshoffs advocated using lags. I don't have the source in front of me --my reference library is sadly lacking in Herreshoff material-- but perhaps someone else could do a search through their library. That *may* be just using lags to affix a ballast keel to a plank keel, but I think they also liked using them for anchoring floors.

    2) However, since you sound focussed on using drifts anyway, I'm assuming you'll be using iron drifts --yes? If not, change your plan to use iron drifts! Bucephalus had bronze drifts holding her oak floor timbers to her oak keel, and during her 30-year refastening I tugged on a floor timber that I had unfastened from the planking preparatory to refastening... and the floor timber came loose with no trouble at all. It seems a big part of how drifts work is that the iron swells --or "blooms"-- as it oxidizes, and locks the drift in place within the wood. Bronze doesn't bloom as it oxidizes, it just scales, thus the drifts don't get locked into place, and after 30 years of hard work they come right out. The good news is that allowed me to easily replace them with through-bolts, but it was still an unsettling experience.

    And an unsolicited two cents: As for hammering on anything in the bilge, either removing concrete or installing drifts, wait and do it on the hard. That kind of shock loading will almost certainly start a seam or two if you inflict it while she's afloat. Even installing drifts, if the force of the hammer blows isn't absorbed by the ground, via the keel blocking that she's sitting on, the rebound will play merry hell with *any* fasteners.

    Awfully nice knowing you have both a project and a boat. Each must make the other all the more satisfying.

    Alex

  6. #3296
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Floors are certainly a good thing and will put that band saw to work Chris!
    Indeed! I've been needing something to make me get it set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chris,
    This article has the placement of floors. Under the engine might be a problem at this point. You might be able to chase down the working drawings. https://www.boatdesign.net/attachmen...ler-jpg.51386/
    Thanks navydog. That's useful. I also have the complete plans and construction drawings for a troller designed by Robert Allan that is just about identical to Petrel - except that she has floors. So I have scantlings, spacing... pretty much everything I need from that. As for installing them under the engine, I do plan on pulling the motor to deal with the frames in that area at some point but there are already some large cross beams there that would normally be floors, except that they are not fastened to the keel! They are just through-bolted to the garboards and serve as supports for the engine beds. A few more fasteners in those should help though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    I'm late to the party with using drifts vs. lags for the floor timbers, but I had two thoughts.

    1) I'm pretty sure I've read that one of the Herreshoffs advocated using lags. I don't have the source in front of me --my reference library is sadly lacking in Herreshoff material-- but perhaps someone else could do a search through their library. That *may* be just using lags to affix a ballast keel to a plank keel, but I think they also liked using them for anchoring floors.

    2) However, since you sound focussed on using drifts anyway, I'm assuming you'll be using iron drifts --yes? If not, change your plan to use iron drifts! Bucephalus had bronze drifts holding her oak floor timbers to her oak keel, and during her 30-year refastening I tugged on a floor timber that I had unfastened from the planking preparatory to refastening... and the floor timber came loose with no trouble at all. It seems a big part of how drifts work is that the iron swells --or "blooms"-- as it oxidizes, and locks the drift in place within the wood. Bronze doesn't bloom as it oxidizes, it just scales, thus the drifts don't get locked into place, and after 30 years of hard work they come right out. The good news is that allowed me to easily replace them with through-bolts, but it was still an unsettling experience.

    And an unsolicited two cents: As for hammering on anything in the bilge, either removing concrete or installing drifts, wait and do it on the hard. That kind of shock loading will almost certainly start a seam or two if you inflict it while she's afloat. Even installing drifts, if the force of the hammer blows isn't absorbed by the ground, via the keel blocking that she's sitting on, the rebound will play merry hell with *any* fasteners.

    Awfully nice knowing you have both a project and a boat. Each must make the other all the more satisfying.

    Alex
    Thanks Alex - that's useful info and a good point about hammering on things in the water vs. passing the force to the ground via blocking. I'm convinced! I'll leave all of the banging around for a haulout. I *was* thinking of using iron drifts although I note that navydog is advocating for stainless.

  7. #3297
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Just to toss another thought into the mix, the new floors I put into Neoga (oak floors & frames, DF keel) each have a long lag bolt into the keel & through-bolts into the frames. This is how Blanchard did it originally (1941).

    As far as tightening the lags - I used a 1/2" ratchet for the last 1/2" of tightening & was able to take the 1/2" lags to about 60 ft. lbs. with no sign of any sort of thread pullout.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  8. #3298

    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I was working on an addition to a sawmill. I got the technical job of installing the machinery. There beside me a carpenter bolting up a wood glulam beam to a steel column. He pre-drilled of course then used an electric impact to drive the lag bolts. It was a moment of "so that's how it's done". The few times I had to sink lag bolts, I just used a ratchet or a crescent wrench.. For the smaller lag bolts on wooden boat, one of those 18 volt cordless 1/4" impacts would just be the ticket. You need one anyway. Just finish the last little bit up by hand as they are powerful. I have in my collection of braces, one with 18" sweep for wooden ships and wooden bridge work.

  9. #3299
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Just to toss another thought into the mix, the new floors I put into Neoga (oak floors & frames, DF keel) each have a long lag bolt into the keel & through-bolts into the frames. This is how Blanchard did it originally (1941).

    As far as tightening the lags - I used a 1/2" ratchet for the last 1/2" of tightening & was able to take the 1/2" lags to about 60 ft. lbs. with no sign of any sort of thread pullout.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downwindtracker2 View Post
    I was working on an addition to a sawmill. I got the technical job of installing the machinery. There beside me a carpenter bolting up a wood glulam beam to a steel column. He pre-drilled of course then used an electric impact to drive the lag bolts. It was a moment of "so that's how it's done". The few times I had to sink lag bolts, I just used a ratchet or a crescent wrench.. For the smaller lag bolts on wooden boat, one of those 18 volt cordless 1/4" impacts would just be the ticket. You need one anyway. Just finish the last little bit up by hand as they are powerful. I have in my collection of braces, one with 18" sweep for wooden ships and wooden bridge work.
    Ah yes, the fabulous impact driver. I just spent most of a week crouched in the bilges of Skookum Maru using one to zip nuts onto the new carriage bolts for the butt blocks. A very handy tool when used with care. Definitely on my must-have tools list. As for lags vs. drifts - I'm going to see how I feel about it when the time comes. Lag screws are easy. Can get decent ones locally with no trouble and can be quickly installed with common tools. Drifts are harder to source and would require that I develop skills I don't have yet to do them well. Which in some ways is the attraction. But not something I have to figure out right away in any case.

  10. #3300
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    I respect Nick and all his ways, but not everyone understands or even knows what a drift or a drift bolt is.

    If I understand it correctly, it's basically a big pin driven into a drilled hole and used where things are pinned together. (Shear) (static)

    this should not be confused with a drift that Ironworkers use which is a tapered iron pin to line up holes for riveting and bolting

    Bolts (lags & screws) are used where things have to be drawn together (tension)

    And as I mentioned before the nature of wood is pretty tenacious when it comes to holding any kind of a fastener, so even a smooth metal drift is going to be pretty difficult to remove.

    Seems to me floors need to be bolted. But what do I know I'm going to go back to the kitchen rattle my pots and pans
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #3301
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I respect Nick and all his ways, but not everyone understands or even knows what a drift or a drift bolt is.

    If I understand it correctly, it's basically a big pin driven into a drilled hole and used where things are pinned together. (Shear) (static)

    this should not be confused with a drift that Ironworkers use which is a tapered iron pin to line up holes for riveting and bolting

    Bolts (lags & screws) are used where things have to be drawn together (tension)

    And as I mentioned before the nature of wood is pretty tenacious when it comes to holding any kind of a fastener, so even a smooth metal drift is going to be pretty difficult to remove.

    Seems to me floors need to be bolted. But what do I know I'm going to go back to the kitchen rattle my pots and pans

    Gonna go bake a pie Denise? I agree that it seems like lag screws would make sense here but all the references I’ve looked at agree with navydog and Nick on using drifts if the floors can’t be through-bolted. Honestly I suspect that either will work fine since most of the forces on them would be in shear anyway. But I can see how the tighter fit of the drifts might resist working and movement better over time. Just a hypothesis.

  12. #3302
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Got down to Petrel today to have another look at the frames and confirmed a few things I had been thinking. First, while there are major problems above the bilge stringers...



    ...below that point things are not so bad:



    Not exactly great perhaps. There is some visible deterioration around the nails and at the point just above the concrete. But they are solid. A knife point doesn't go into them, there are no gaps between the frames and the planks and they don't lift at all when I try to insert a blade between the frame and the plank.

    Then I was also able to have a look at one of the galvanized screws from the '90 refastening that I cut off after removing a section of frame:



    That doesn't look too bad to me either. Surface rust but the threads are intact and there is clean metal all the way through. Maybe not as conclusive as a full out-of-water fastener inspection but still more a positive indicator than not.

    None of this changes the overall plan. I still think Petrel needs to have all of these frames sistered down to the keel, floors added, etc. but I'm now back to thinking that it's not entirely unrealistic to deal with the work above and below the waterline as two distinct projects. Cut away and replace the bad frame sections above the bilge stringers and sister from the top down to a little below the bilge stringers first, and then with that done I can deal with everything below the concrete separately.

  13. #3303
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    You could just run the sisters down three or four planks past where you cut off the tops and call it good...
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

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    Or? make the floors wide and maybe thick enough to cover the original frame and the sister frame end?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    You could just run the sisters down three or four planks past where you cut off the tops and call it good...
    Well that was my original plan as that's about where they would end up after completing the first part of the project, before removing the concrete. That still leaves the question of how well the planks and frames are doing under the ballast though. I could pull the garboards and have a look but I'd be willing to bet that once I have them off I'm going to want to sister all the way to the keel anyway. However I am thinking that could be a project for later. Maybe pull some fasteners out of the rabbet to confirm that everything is solid down there but leave the major work for another time.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Or? make the floors wide and maybe thick enough to cover the original frame and the sister frame end?
    I was actually thinking of building up the frame ends with laminations so there is more material for through bolts, and installing the floors alongside the original frames.

  16. #3306
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    Talking Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post

    I could pull the garboards and have a look but I'd be willing to bet that once I have them off I'm going to want to sister all the way to the keel anyway.
    This would be the best plan and the conclusion I was hoping you would arrive at. Steam full lenght frames and slide them in from the sheer. Two or three guys could frame the whole boat in one or two days. The finished product will be a much higher quality job making the life of the boat last years beyond any other methods. (Now that you saved the boat from certain destruction you have to think long term)

    As far as bolting the frames to the floors, I wouldn't bother with it. The horizontal hole significantly weakens the frame. I've seen so many broken frames from this I don't understand why builders continued with the practice. Some of the breakage is because the floor creates a hard spot and the hull is flexing above the floor placing a lot of force on the top bolt. The frame breaks on the bolt hole.
    Last edited by navydog; 09-12-2018 at 10:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    This would be the best plan and the conclusion I was hoping you would arrive at. Steam full lenght frames and slide them in from the sheer.
    Navydog, I do agree that would be "best" in some combination of objective and subjective criteria factoring in strength, traditional technique, etc. And that is what I had originally intended to do when I first started on this project last year, before ultimately settling on laminating the sisters. But full-length steamed frames is not what I meant by "sistering all the way to the keel." I was actually thinking about making laminated sisters in two pieces, a top half that would come down below the point where the original frame is cut and repaired, and a bottom half that would continue the rest of the way to the keel. Using this method I can still break the work up into smaller projects and more of the work can be done in the water.

    At this point it's probably worth philosophizing a bit. I have always had several goals for Petrel. Rescue first of course. Just get her back in the water and save her from her date with the chainsaw. And then restore her to a condition that would allow us to use her in some fashion. I think I've accomplished the first goal but not the second, but I'm working on it. But beyond these practical objectives I am also using Petrel as a bit of a test case: "Can someone with moderate skills and resources successfully restore an old wood boat without a multi-year haulout and the challenges inherent in that approach?" The obvious answer is that it depends on the boat, but I think it also depends on the methods used.

    In some ways I think my project with Petrel is a counterpoint to Jim's work on Amazon. Two different ways to accomplish the same result. I definitely think the "right" approach is to do what Jim did. Haul out and tackle all of the major projects step by step until the project is done. But Jim has skills I do not have. And he had a place to work on the boat that didn't cost him anything, and which is only steps away from his home so he doesn't have to spend time traveling to it. Most of the big boat restoration projects on the WBF - Amazon, My Gal, Minde, Haabet, etc. - have been done that way. These are all beautiful boats featuring skilled craftsmanship, and they all spent years on the hard.

    Putting the boat on land, in a place that doesn't cost anything for storage, eliminates a whole raft of problems. Need to learn the skills necessary to do some part of the work? No problem - that just takes time. Need to take a couple of weeks away from the boat for a family vacation? It will be there when you get back. Find a new problem when you start poking at the stem? Just cut it out and make a new piece. Easy. But what do you do if putting the boat in your back yard is not an option? Give up? Buy a fiberglass boat? Or is it possible to do the work in the water, in discrete projects that can be tackled individually, with an occasional haul out to deal with repairs below the waterline? That's what I'm trying to find out. Can't say that I've answered the question yet. I have definitely run into more challenges than I had anticipated. But I haven't given up either.

    Which brings me back to the question of the frame repairs. It may be that two or three people with the requisite skill could do that job in a few days out of the water but having just spent nearly a month in the yard with Skookum Maru to complete a project of similar size I think that realistically it would be more like a few weeks. And to hire shipwrights with the skill to do the project would would cost thousands of dollars that I don't have (since I just spent it all on another boat). I am sure that I could learn to do the work myself but that would extend the weeks to months and at $80/day in the yard that also turns into thousands of dollars.

    To be sure, I chafe at the constraints of the path I have chosen. It's frustrating to chip slowly away at the work when what I would rather do is get Petrel out of the water and just get it done. But that's not possible so I have to find other ways to make progress. Inevitably that leads to compromises and the use of non-traditional solutions but with the advice of people on the forum with more knowledge and experience than I have I am trying to come up with techniques that are both feasible and which will result in a sound and seaworthy boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris, I'm sorry I was being a bit sarcastic and didn't message that better. I know what you are up against in both time and money and the constraints of both issues.

    Your #2 goal is absolutely attainable and I'm certain you have the ability to achieve the end you want. Finishing a project like this is mostly about persisting and patience.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chris, I'm sorry I was being a bit sarcastic and didn't message that better. I know what you are up against in both time and money and the constraints of both issues.

    Your #2 goal is absolutely attainable and I'm certain you have the ability to achieve the end you want. Finishing a project like this is mostly about persisting and patience.
    Ha! Now don't I feel foolish after all my late-night pontificating on the philosophy of boat restoration. I guess I'd be better off spending less time on the computer and more time on the boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    If you don't philosophise, think out what you think you need to think about, you won't ever know anything.

    Carry on, Chris. The view is grand from here in the cheap seats.

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    To what level of restoration ? These were working fish boats. That's galvanized iron, not bronze.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    "which will result in a sound and seaworthy boat. " Chris

    Chris wants to repair the boat to a safe usable condition. I don't think he ever thought this would be a full restoration.
    Last edited by navydog; 09-13-2018 at 02:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    The best cruising is in full swing now, till mid-to-late October. More time for boat work after that, just sayin'. / Jim

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    The best cruising is in full swing now, till mid-to-late October. More time for boat work after that, just sayin'. / Jim
    I know! But with Dash just starting kindergarten I think we are going to be limited to weekend overnights on a mooring. Hoping to get a few of those in though.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris, first let me congratulate you for the new boat, she really is something. I hope you will enjoy her for a long time.

    Now back to Petrel, since you decided to keep her. In order to make sistering simpler and minimize time on the hard, try to cut pockets into the concrete with an oscillating saw (multitool) with diamond blades. The different blade geometries available allow enough control that you don't cut into the keel or garboard. With more speedier options like angle grinders and diamond core drills you run the risc of cutting the garboard. If you own a good quality multitool give it a try, you could end making the sisters in one piece. You don't need to remove all of the concrete, just a pocket a little wider than the new frame.
    The floors I would make out of steel and install them over the new frames in the same pockets. Petrel is a workboat, iron floors are apropiate in my thinking. Use flat bar and/or angle iron. If you don't want to tack them inside the boat use some globs of thickend epoxy (or JB Weld or similar) to establish the geometry and weld them off site, then drill them and send them to be galvanized. You then install them in the boat with some bedding (thickened epoxy or polysulfide) and fasten them at haulout with bolts going trough everything, planks, frames and floors. With the help of a right angle drill atachement you could screw fasten them beforehand into the sides of the keel.
    This way at haulout you only have to fasten under the waterline, no concrete chipping, and the sistering job would be done. Once in the water, again seal the pockets with new concrete to restore the waterways.
    I admit it's not the most elegant solution, but it saves time on the hard. Otherwise you have to haul out twice (or keep her out longer), once to chip out the concrete, and then to fasten the half sisters and floors. You also have to think about the fact that the concrete is probably sealing your garboard seam right now, and after you hammer it out you probably need to recaulk the garbord seam. That's why I think the money spent on some good diamond coated multitool blades is a good investment.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Chris, first let me congratulate you for the new boat, she really is something. I hope you will enjoy her for a long time.

    Now back to Petrel, since you decided to keep her. In order to make sistering simpler and minimize time on the hard, try to cut pockets into the concrete with an oscillating saw (multitool) with diamond blades. The different blade geometries available allow enough control that you don't cut into the keel or garboard. With more speedier options like angle grinders and diamond core drills you run the risc of cutting the garboard. If you own a good quality multitool give it a try, you could end making the sisters in one piece. You don't need to remove all of the concrete, just a pocket a little wider than the new frame.
    The floors I would make out of steel and install them over the new frames in the same pockets. Petrel is a workboat, iron floors are apropiate in my thinking. Use flat bar and/or angle iron. If you don't want to tack them inside the boat use some globs of thickend epoxy (or JB Weld or similar) to establish the geometry and weld them off site, then drill them and send them to be galvanized. You then install them in the boat with some bedding (thickened epoxy or polysulfide) and fasten them at haulout with bolts going trough everything, planks, frames and floors. With the help of a right angle drill atachement you could screw fasten them beforehand into the sides of the keel.
    This way at haulout you only have to fasten under the waterline, no concrete chipping, and the sistering job would be done. Once in the water, again seal the pockets with new concrete to restore the waterways.
    I admit it's not the most elegant solution, but it saves time on the hard. Otherwise you have to haul out twice (or keep her out longer), once to chip out the concrete, and then to fasten the half sisters and floors. You also have to think about the fact that the concrete is probably sealing your garboard seam right now, and after you hammer it out you probably need to recaulk the garbord seam. That's why I think the money spent on some good diamond coated multitool blades is a good investment.
    Good to hear from you again Rumars. And interesting suggestion about using a multitool on the concrete. I hadn't considered that but since I just bought one that's definitely something I will try. You're right that if I can get at least some of the concrete out in the water that would simplify things a lot. As for the iron floors - perhaps? I agree that they would fit the workboat aesthetic and I wouldn't mind using my (very rusty) welding skills a bit, but it seems like it would just be easier to make them out of yellow cedar, like the frames?

  27. #3317
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    You actually only need the pockets for the frame heels, taking out all of the concrete is unnecessary. For a traditional repair on the hard with steamed frames and garboard replacement sure, a jackhammer will do it just fine and taking it all out would be better.
    Buy some good blades and give the multitool a try. A running water supply to cool the blade and bind dust will speed things up. (Handle with care, you don't want to get water on the tool, use a thin hose and little flow.)
    You could make the floors out of wood of course. But you have a keel that portrudes high into the boat, so for traditional floors you would need some big timbers, and also removing more concrete. If going wood it would be better to make laminated floors. Fit a filler piece between keel and frame (solid wood or thick ply, your choice), glue it to the new frames and laminate the floor on top in a nice curve by stapling the layers in place. Taper the ends of the laminations on the frames so you don't get a stress point. This kind of floor would be integral to the frames and avoid corrosion problems, but it means more epoxy work. The beams suporting the sole would either be a separate piece (like what she had before) or you could also laminate them in place with knees in the corners (overkill). What is quicker, this or iron floors depends on your skillset. Petrel is galvanized fastened so iron floors are not a big problem. To my thinking even iron frame sisters would not be out of place. Now that you have a "nice boat" to enjoy, you need some easy fixes for Petrel that will last the next 20-30 years. After that she will probably need a full restauration anyway because the fasteners will be mostly shot and you don't have any more room to refasten, and/or the caulking seams will be to wide, etc.
    So depending on your skillsets and preferences you decide if you continue laminating, or go the iron route. Transforming Petrel into a composite construction with galvanized iron frames, floors and deckbeams would certainly be possible and result in a strong boat. Maybe do a steel frame just as an experiment to see if you like it better than laminating and investigate if you have a hot dip galvanizer in the area.

  28. #3318
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I think I read that she's riding a bit high? Run your floors, or ribs, right across the top of the concrete, and pour another 4-6 inches on top of that. 2 birds, one stone.

  29. #3319
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    You actually only need the pockets for the frame heels, taking out all of the concrete is unnecessary. For a traditional repair on the hard with steamed frames and garboard replacement sure, a jackhammer will do it just fine and taking it all out would be better.
    Buy some good blades and give the multitool a try. A running water supply to cool the blade and bind dust will speed things up. (Handle with care, you don't want to get water on the tool, use a thin hose and little flow.)
    You could make the floors out of wood of course. But you have a keel that portrudes high into the boat, so for traditional floors you would need some big timbers, and also removing more concrete. If going wood it would be better to make laminated floors. Fit a filler piece between keel and frame (solid wood or thick ply, your choice), glue it to the new frames and laminate the floor on top in a nice curve by stapling the layers in place. Taper the ends of the laminations on the frames so you don't get a stress point. This kind of floor would be integral to the frames and avoid corrosion problems, but it means more epoxy work. The beams suporting the sole would either be a separate piece (like what she had before) or you could also laminate them in place with knees in the corners (overkill). What is quicker, this or iron floors depends on your skillset. Petrel is galvanized fastened so iron floors are not a big problem. To my thinking even iron frame sisters would not be out of place. Now that you have a "nice boat" to enjoy, you need some easy fixes for Petrel that will last the next 20-30 years. After that she will probably need a full restauration anyway because the fasteners will be mostly shot and you don't have any more room to refasten, and/or the caulking seams will be to wide, etc.
    So depending on your skillsets and preferences you decide if you continue laminating, or go the iron route. Transforming Petrel into a composite construction with galvanized iron frames, floors and deckbeams would certainly be possible and result in a strong boat. Maybe do a steel frame just as an experiment to see if you like it better than laminating and investigate if you have a hot dip galvanizer in the area.
    I'll have to take a photo of the main area filled with concrete. It's maybe 8"-10" deep or more at the keel and it extends a couple of feet to either side. It's not really possible to cut pockets for the heels into it. I'd at least need to remove a complete section adjacent to the frame. But I'm curious to find out whether making cuts into the concrete might make it possible to remove some of it with less impact on the hull. Might not work but it's at least worth trying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I think I read that she's riding a bit high? Run your floors, or ribs, right across the top of the concrete, and pour another 4-6 inches on top of that. 2 birds, one stone.
    Um. Well, yes. But might be a bit difficult to fasten the floors, frames, etc, to anything that way. Of course weren't you suggesting masonry anchors a few posts back? And I *was* just talking about non-traditional repairs... Hmmm. Maybe I should just cover the bilge in a framework of rebar and pour in a bunch of concrete over it. That should fine, right?

  30. #3320
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Im pretty sure stranger things have been done!

  31. #3321
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Im pretty sure stranger things have been done!
    Sadly, I have no doubt of that.

  32. #3322
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I'll have to take a photo of the main area filled with concrete. It's maybe 8"-10" deep or more at the keel and it extends a couple of feet to either side. It's not really possible to cut pockets for the heels into it. I'd at least need to remove a complete section adjacent to the frame. But I'm curious to find out whether making cuts into the concrete might make it possible to remove some of it with less impact on the hull. Might not work but it's at least worth trying.



    Um. Well, yes. But might be a bit difficult to fasten the floors, frames, etc, to anything that way. Of course weren't you suggesting masonry anchors a few posts back? And I *was* just talking about non-traditional repairs... Hmmm. Maybe I should just cover the bilge in a framework of rebar and pour in a bunch of concrete over it. That should fine, right?
    Years ago I worked in Sint Maarten for a few months & the job came with a "car" to use. It was an old Passat that had a really rusty floor. They had pulled out all the seats & carpet, covered the holes with loose sheet metal & poured a couple of inches of concrete in. Seats were then mounted with expanding fasteners.

    Sure went around corners well, but the extra (300 lbs?) weight didn't help acceleration or braking.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  33. #3323
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris, before you do any work removing concrete please buy a dirty water submersible pump for use in an emergency. The big box stores have them.

  34. #3324
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Years ago I worked in Sint Maarten for a few months & the job came with a "car" to use. It was an old Passat that had a really rusty floor. They had pulled out all the seats & carpet, covered the holes with loose sheet metal & poured a couple of inches of concrete in. Seats were then mounted with expanding fasteners.

    Sure went around corners well, but the extra (300 lbs?) weight didn't help acceleration or braking.
    Hire a stone cutter and score the top as deep as you dare. Then use cold chisels as wedges to crack from the score down to the plank. Might make breaking it out easier.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #3325
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I'll have to take a photo of the main area filled with concrete. It's maybe 8"-10" deep or more at the keel and it extends a couple of feet to either side. It's not really possible to cut pockets for the heels into it. I'd at least need to remove a complete section adjacent to the frame. But I'm curious to find out whether making cuts into the concrete might make it possible to remove some of it with less impact on the hull. Might not work but it's at least worth trying.



    Um. Well, yes. But might be a bit difficult to fasten the floors, frames, etc, to anything that way. Of course weren't you suggesting masonry anchors a few posts back? And I *was* just talking about non-traditional repairs... Hmmm. Maybe I should just cover the bilge in a framework of rebar and pour in a bunch of concrete over it. That should fine, right?
    I've not seen mention that the concrete offers any kind of structural element maybe even serves the same structural purpose the floors would serve, but what do I know.

    I do like the idea of the gar boards being pulled someday Chris. and possibly that would be the time to deal with removing concrete.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 09-14-2018 at 09:23 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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