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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #3501
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    All this talk about stoves is making me want to go out and tinker with the one on Amazon to get it running. It's a Dickinson Adriatic. Way more stove then we'll ever need. Too bad you're not a bit closer Chris.
    -Jim

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    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
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  2. #3502
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Doing some casual reading, seems most of the negatives (not that there are many)are about cooking on the top, which is somewhat equivalent to cooking on a hot griddle. That could be a problem for many of us because we are used to adjustable burners.

    If I had the dream of living aboard and the dream of affording all the wonderful bells and whistles that we all dream of, I would probably have diesel heater & a cng or lpg range, (co2,monox,&h20 alarms and sensors included) oh of course need to include cooking on the rail when Outdoors!

    Stove operation 24/7 on a fishing boat with a crew probably made a lot of sense I don't know how that can translate to living aboard. But you will never find me in Florida either lol

    I know LPG is always a "heated" argument whenever it's mentioned.

    There are pressurized kero burner stoves, but I think they may be ancient technology although the appeal of the blue burner persists...

    I've often wondered about the Wallas type.
    http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=53
    True, the diesel stove does not give the sort of control you get with a gas range but it works well enough for most things in my experience. Actually I can't think of anything I wouldn't cook on one. I could make eggs benedict, poached salmon, mushroom risotto, chicken cacciatore or a great brisket with just the diesel stove. That's a pretty wide range of options. Might not have the concentrated heat needed for a wok so really good pad thai would be out though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryden View Post
    You could have an oven (of sorts) with a stove top.
    All through my childhood, my mother used one of these on the Primus stove in our boat.
    http://omniasweden.com/en/home/

    We had lasagna, pizza, meatloaf, fresh bread, cinnamon buns, birthday cake, you name it.
    It really works

    I still have it and use it on my Trangia camping stove, it's worth the weight even on a week long trek just to be able to have some hot sponge cake while looking at the mountains and knowing that the nearest electricity is 150km away
    I like it!

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    All this talk about stoves is making me want to go out and tinker with the one on Amazon to get it running. It's a Dickinson Adriatic. Way more stove then we'll ever need. Too bad you're not a bit closer Chris.
    No kidding Jim. That's way too much stove for Amazon. What you need is a little diesel Neptune stove. That would be the perfect size. And I happen to have two of them along with spare parts from a third sitting in my shop right now. Just the little matter of 1700 miles or so between Juneau and Seattle to contend with... Oh well.

  3. #3503
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Denise is right, I had forgotten about the joys of cooking on a stove with a solid cast iron surface. Let me describe it for you.

    The stove has different areas at different temperatures. Adjusting heat to the pots and pans means moving them around to the desired spot wich you know by experience. Cooking with multiple pots at once is a challenge, think of it as 3D tetris. Having limited burner adjustability and no removable rings (eyes) just makes it harder. Anything boiled takes forever. You basicly become a convert to slow cooking. Anything fried will require planing since you must preheat the pan, and that also takes time. The oven will behave erraticly because soot deposits on it's surface and insulates some spots, so that you can never predict exactly how it bakes.
    Any pot or pan having a plastic handle needs to be banned from the stove or used under constant supervision. Modern stainless steel pots will drive you crazy because their heat transfer capability is so poor. So you revert to the classic thin iron enammeled pots and cast iron and black iron pans. Using a oven mitt becomes a necessary habit. Aluminium pots usually need to have their plastic handles changed to metal or wood before you can use them, but they are better then iron. Aluminium pans risk to have their coating burned of during preheat, so you stay with iron. These stoves are really designed to work with copper cookware, so you start looking for used ones everywhere because a full set of quality new ones will make the stove look like a bargain.
    Boiling water for coffe or tea takes forever and if you use the often cited technique of keeping the kettle on all the time you just converted your nice dry radiant heat into a nice humid one. To avoid that you either use tiny one cup pots (turkish coffe pots) or heat water by some other means.

    Having the propane stove means you will use it for most of your cooking. The diesel stove you'll use for things that take forever, like slow stews. Put it on in the morning, ready to eat in the afternoon. Eat some than add new and different ingredients to the pot, next day you have a diferent stew. Same thing for soups. That's about all it's good for. The oven function will depend on the burner not sooting. After it's got carbon all it's good for is casseroles until you clean it.
    As I see it having the heating on diesel and cooking on propane is the best there is.

  4. #3504
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Denise is right, I had forgotten about the joys of cooking on a stove with a solid cast iron surface. Let me describe it for you.

    The stove has different areas at different temperatures. Adjusting heat to the pots and pans means moving them around to the desired spot wich you know by experience. Cooking with multiple pots at once is a challenge, think of it as 3D tetris. Having limited burner adjustability and no removable rings (eyes) just makes it harder. Anything boiled takes forever. You basicly become a convert to slow cooking. Anything fried will require planing since you must preheat the pan, and that also takes time. The oven will behave erraticly because soot deposits on it's surface and insulates some spots, so that you can never predict exactly how it bakes.
    Any pot or pan having a plastic handle needs to be banned from the stove or used under constant supervision. Modern stainless steel pots will drive you crazy because their heat transfer capability is so poor. So you revert to the classic thin iron enammeled pots and cast iron and black iron pans. Using a oven mitt becomes a necessary habit. Aluminium pots usually need to have their plastic handles changed to metal or wood before you can use them, but they are better then iron. Aluminium pans risk to have their coating burned of during preheat, so you stay with iron. These stoves are really designed to work with copper cookware, so you start looking for used ones everywhere because a full set of quality new ones will make the stove look like a bargain.
    Boiling water for coffe or tea takes forever and if you use the often cited technique of keeping the kettle on all the time you just converted your nice dry radiant heat into a nice humid one. To avoid that you either use tiny one cup pots (turkish coffe pots) or heat water by some other means.

    Having the propane stove means you will use it for most of your cooking. The diesel stove you'll use for things that take forever, like slow stews. Put it on in the morning, ready to eat in the afternoon. Eat some than add new and different ingredients to the pot, next day you have a diferent stew. Same thing for soups. That's about all it's good for. The oven function will depend on the burner not sooting. After it's got carbon all it's good for is casseroles until you clean it.
    As I see it having the heating on diesel and cooking on propane is the best there is.

    It's been nearly twenty years since I last cooked on a diesel stove but that's pretty much what I remember as well. Great for low heat/slow cooking. Poached eggs and fish, stews, etc. Anything made in a dutch oven works well. Less good for high heat tasks though. And yes, boiling water can be excruciating. But not sure I completely agree that frying is difficult? It's basically a big griddle. I remember eggs, omelettes, pancakes, french toast, bacon, sausage all cooking nicely on my old stove. I could be adding a glow of nostalgia to the whole experience though! And I always used cast iron cookware but copper would be very nice to have for sure.

    Having an option for a propane burner would be the best of all worlds though. That's where I think we will end up.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    All this talk about stoves is making me want to go out and tinker with the one on Amazon to get it running. It's a Dickinson Adriatic. Way more stove then we'll ever need. Too bad you're not a bit closer Chris.
    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    No kidding Jim. That's way too much stove for Amazon. What you need is a little diesel Neptune stove. That would be the perfect size. And I happen to have two of them along with spare parts from a third sitting in my shop right now. Just the little matter of 1700 miles or so between Juneau and Seattle to contend with... Oh well.


    Clearly the answer is for both of you to steam toward each other and meet, somewhere around Bella Bella I suspect.

    Next summer?
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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    I really like the Wallas heaters, they seem to work on the same Principle as the Espar.

    It's not always apparent, but to burn diesel without smoke, it takes a certain type of design which usually involves some sort of pot or chamber that gets very very hot and vaporizes the fuel hot enough that there is no soot. Diesel carburetors/metering valves essentially do the same thing but the burner they feed into, is usually the problem, because diesel fuel can't burn at a lower temp and not make soot.

    So the "low" setting for burning diesel must be high enough to cause vaporization. a good thing when continued or on demand use is needed. Not so great for on off lightly used duty

    Other liquid fuels like gasoline, alcohol, LPG and CNG change from liquid to gas at a very low temperature so they can burn not at a lower temperature, but with a smaller Flame.

    But I like the safety of diesel and kerosene on boats!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #3507
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    Clearly the answer is for both of you to steam toward each other and meet, somewhere around Bella Bella I suspect.

    Next summer?
    Anything less would be an opportunity wasted.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  8. #3508
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I really like the Wallas heaters, they seem to work on the same Principle as the Espar.

    It's not always apparent, but to burn diesel without smoke, it takes a certain type of design which usually involves some sort of pot or chamber that gets very very hot and vaporizes the fuel hot enough that there is no soot. Diesel carburetors/metering valves essentially do the same thing but the burner they feed into, is usually the problem, because diesel fuel can't burn at a lower temp and not make soot.

    So the "low" setting for burning diesel must be high enough to cause vaporization. a good thing when continued or on demand use is needed. Not so great for on off lightly used duty

    Other liquid fuels like gasoline, alcohol, LPG and CNG change from liquid to gas at a very low temperature so they can burn not at a lower temperature, but with a smaller Flame.

    But I like the safety of diesel and kerosene on boats!
    Dickinson stoves include a device in the pot burner that they call a "superheater" which is designed to conduct the flame heat down into the pot to vaporize the fuel and reduce soot. I'm sure there is a minimum temperature for the stove to burn efficiently but my recollection is that I could turn my old stove down at night with no problems and that was a much older model without any of the updates that Dickinson has made to the basic design in the last fifty years or so. But yes, you can't really turn it on and off as needed. Better to keep it running.

    I think the bottom line is that diesel stoves are one of those things you either love or you don't. There are certainly any number of rants online from people who tried to get one working and failed, or don't love the smell, or found that the soot on the decks is too annoying, or whatever. They certainly aren't a "press the button and get heat" device. But I have nothing but fond memories of mine.

    Well...there was that time that I flooded it and had great clouds of black smoke spewing out of the chimney until the excess fuel burned off, which took far longer than I expected. This was when I had a whole crowd of guests aboard for a nice evening cruise around the lake of course. Not my finest hour with Savona. But that was completely operator error and easily avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    Anything less would be an opportunity wasted.
    Indeed! That does seem like a worthwhile goal doesn't it?

  9. #3509
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris the problem with frying is time. If you don't want to use the stovetop directly for cooking you need to preheat the pan before searing and frying. That can be pretty quick for a small black iron pan, or can take some time for big and heavy cast iron. Once the pan is hot there are usually no problems.
    That's one of the reasons a traditional kitchen has so many different pan and pot sizes. Today with energy beeing cheap and plentyfull we tend to ignore that and just make a bigger fire.

    Denise the problem with diesel is that it has it's vaporizing point right in the middle of the self ignition range. This makes pot burners possible, but they don't get hot enough for a complete combustion (blue flame, no carbon buildup). Only atomizing burners (steam, compressed air or high presure diesel injection) can do that. The Wallas stove (and the Webasto competing product) work indeed like the heaters, an electric pump pumps fuel in a burn chamber on a glowplug. Because the glowplug is hotter than a pot and the fuel is sprayed instead of dripped vaporization is better than with pot burners and they soot less. The hot gases heat a glass cooktop then get blown out. The whole unit is mounted in a box that is cooled by a fan. This hot air gets blown out and can be used for space heating. The Wallas has this option, the Webasto does not.

  10. #3510
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    The diesel stove/heater technology goes way back Chris. wrap it in stainless steel you have a marine heater. I remember the Coleman and Duo Therm heaters from a Time that now is long ago but in my lifetime OMG am I old!

    this is pretty nice, made in the USA by "Amish for the Amish"

    But one need be mindful that Kero is way way easier to vaporize.

    https://www.lehmans.com/product/8090...YaAvCvEALw_wcB
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #3511
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Chris the problem with frying is time. If you don't want to use the stovetop directly for cooking you need to preheat the pan before searing and frying. That can be pretty quick for a small black iron pan, or can take some time for big and heavy cast iron. Once the pan is hot there are usually no problems.
    That's one of the reasons a traditional kitchen has so many different pan and pot sizes. Today with energy beeing cheap and plentyfull we tend to ignore that and just make a bigger fire.
    Ah, yes - that does bring back memories. I had this great little cast iron omelette pan that worked perfectly on the stove. Heated up quickly and was an ideal size for all sorts of one-person meals....

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    The diesel stove/heater technology goes way back Chris. wrap it in stainless steel you have a marine heater. I remember the Coleman and Duo Therm heaters from a Time that now is long ago but in my lifetime OMG am I old!

    this is pretty nice, made in the USA by "Amish for the Amish"

    But one need be mindful that Kero is way way easier to vaporize.

    https://www.lehmans.com/product/8090...YaAvCvEALw_wcB
    That's a nice stove Denise. I got an email from our local natural gas provider this morning telling me that gas supplies could be spotty due to a gas line explosion in B.C. Maybe we need a kerosene stove as a backup for the house...

    It's also possible to have the Dickinson carburetor re-valved for kerosene and burn that instead but I'm not sure it's worth the hassle of carrying another type of fuel onboard. I never had any problem with plain old #2 diesel.

  12. #3512
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Great info's about the cooking, thanks a lot, it's very helpful for me!!! My intention was to have the stove running 24/7 wherever the outside temperature is below 18 º C and, when cooking-time comes along, turn it up so I can do this. And when we're with 4 people, my crew will just have to learn how to deal with it to get a meal together if they don't know already. I've never been particularly fond of cooking and am more of a one pot of stew for one week person. In the past I did have a small iron frying-pan which came with instructions how to get her right. I did follow the instructions and this thing was the best that happened to me as far as cooking was concerned. Never something would stick to the bottom or whatever, easy to clean, and much much better than any Teflon- or whatever coated stuff I've tried out in my life.

    One wouldn't find iron pots and pans in the supermarkets here, but Farmer- and Gypsy-markets and a lot of wonderfully ancient stores still sell them, so I'm in kind of heaven to get this all together. And the great thing is I can try each one out now if it's good or not, instead of having to find out at sea that it's no good.
    fair winds, Dody

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  13. #3513
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    All this talk about stoves is making me want to go out and tinker with the one on Amazon to get it running. It's a Dickinson Adriatic. Way more stove then we'll ever need. Too bad you're not a bit closer Chris.
    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ...What you need is a little diesel Neptune stove. That would be the perfect size. And I happen to have two of them along with spare parts from a third sitting in my shop right now. Just the little matter of 1700 miles or so between Juneau and Seattle to contend with... Oh well.
    So...you guys do know that barges go back and forth between Seattle and Alaska like every week, right?
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  14. #3514
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    So...you guys do know that barges go back and forth between Seattle and Alaska like every week, right?
    Oh, yeah - my little brother worked that run for Western Towboat a few summers ago when he was getting his sea time. Seems a bit silly to ship something like diesel stoves back and forth though. Big and heavy and there are no shortage of the things in either Seattle or Juneau. More one of those things you do if everything is on one place. But meeting in Bella Bella sounds like a good excuse for a cruise regardless of any need to swap stoves.

    Here's a Neptune for anyone curious...



    (This one is not mine - it's in a big Boeing yacht named Wyrill). Great little stoves. Was planning to restore one of the ones I have and put it in Petrel. I might still do that but it keeps getting lower on my list of projects.

  15. #3515
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    More on diesel stove installation and cooking, since I don't think we have exhausted that topic yet. In exploring examples of Dickinson installations I found this blog post:

    http://www.sshelge.com/helge/forward_stove.html

    It documents the installation of a Dickinson stove on Helge, a Buehler Diesel Duck. It's a fascinating read. The stove is set up so that it will auto-adjust based on a thermostat. To make that work they installed two different metering valves on the stove, one set to high and one set to low. The thermostat controls a pump that feeds the "high" valve to turn up the heat when the temperature drops. There are some other complexities as well. I have to say that I think they kinda missed the entire point of the diesel stove by taking a device whose chief virtue is its simplicity and adding a bunch of parts and electronics to it. But the overflow auto-shutdown feature they devised is not a bad idea. And I do admire the ingenuity of it all.

    But what I really love about the post are the cooking shots. Here are a few, but anyone interested should visit the blog post for the full set. Or check out the Instagram feed: https://www.instagram.com/windy.way/. The guy fitting out Helge does some very nice work.







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    Wow did he overboard that idea!
    There are ways to control things like that thermostaticly without electric.
    but as you can see it's still comes down to keeping a fire going hot enough to vaporize the diesel fuel. I don't like to spill over feature. that's one of the problems that's always existed with this type of firing. On the other hand the electrical requirement is probably equal to an electric clock.

    Got to love the Bon Appetit like photos

    The "valve" Pretty much what all diesel heating cooking units are built around except the wick type that use kero.
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 10-11-2018 at 11:43 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    ^^ I get the concern about the overflow Denise, but that's actually a safety feature since it prevents the valve from flooding the burner if the float sticks. The Dickinson valve also has a thermal circuit breaker that melts and cuts off the fuel flow if it gets too hot. A much better design than the old Singer carburetors like the one I had on my stove.

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    first time I've EVER seen a wooden overflow container (epoxy lined?) LOL


    I understand the cup is the first line of defense then the big float switch for the unlikely event. Just seems while he was on this redundantly redundant saftey design he could of included a overflow pump too...But the actual overflow is very very small as noted.

    But.. with what all that he did... it would have been so much easier to have a separate heating system from cooking.. but that is just where & how I think.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    first time I've EVER seen a wooden overflow container (epoxy lined?) LOL


    I understand the cup is the first line of defense then the big float switch for the unlikely event. Just seems while he was on this redundantly redundant saftey design he could of included a overflow pump too...But the actual overflow is very very small as noted.

    But.. with what all that he did... it would have been so much easier to have a separate heating system from cooking.. but that is just where & how I think.
    Ok, yeah I completely agree with all that! Especially since it's clear that there is also a Webasto heater installed on the boat. I think in the setup on Helge the overflow is a bigger issue since the high-heat valve gets pressurized every time the heat kicks on, resulting in some overflow. In a normal installation it's not a problem. There isn't much overflow to begin with. Just run the overflow to a catch tank or, even better, back to the main tank, and you never have to worry about it. Really, the setup on Helge is a lot of clever work to solve a problem that never existed in the first place (but it sure is clever).

    For me the number one advantage of the diesel stove is simplicity. Skookum Maru is pretty close to perfect that way right now. The composting heads eliminate a lot of complicated plumbing. The Detroit 3-71 is as about as low-tech as you can get. I'd like to update the nav electronics a bit to eliminate some redundant screens and run everything to one laptop but otherwise there isn't much else to do. Just that d***ed Espar heater standing between me and my luddite ideals.

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    I've been looking at Espar heater sites a little bit Chris, still haven't found a operation sequence so I'm wondering if the ignitor glow plug is on all the time or only for ignition? How the fuel actually enters the burner?

    You are probably way ahead of me Chris, but have you been to this site? You probably mentioned it Pages ago, just wondering what model number unit you have. I saw something about a new module but it's close to $300 which I'm sure you don't want to deal with, but a new heater like that is over a thousand gawd.
    https://esparparts.com/heaterscurren...03.html?page=2

    Espar tech Brian Silk on this site that I'm not a member of and it's a pretty old discussion something about the flame sensor is no longer available which doesn't surprise me it's usually a sort of a ground rod. http://www.marineengine.com/boat-for...-Espar-heaters
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 10-11-2018 at 02:48 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Just that d***ed Espar heater standing between me and my luddite ideals.
    Well, I hate to throw another egg on the griddle but

    http://www.impactparts.com/ToyotomiAC/CabinHeater.html

    Current model number is NS2800. Good reports in Alaska, spare parts in stock, the only bad thing is the price at about $1500 but a decent Neptune stove goes for close to that so ...

    If it were not for the price tag I'd probly be ordering one as we speak

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    I've been looking at Espar heater sites a little bit Chris, still haven't found a operation sequence so I'm wondering if the ignitor glow plug is on all the time or only for ignition? How the fuel actually enters the burner?

    You are probably way ahead of me Chris, but have you been to this site? You probably mentioned it Pages ago, just wondering what model number unit you have. I saw something about a new module but it's close to $300 which I'm sure you don't want to deal with, but a new heater like that is over a thousand gawd.
    https://esparparts.com/heaterscurren...03.html?page=2

    Espar tech Brian Silk on this site that I'm not a member of and it's a pretty old discussion something about the flame sensor is no longer available which doesn't surprise me it's usually a sort of a ground rod. http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?385497-HELP-with-Espar-heaters
    When you can pay $4000 for an espar, or $300 for a Chinese copy. Buy a spare Chinese heater for backup. No contest I reckon. The glow plug only runs on start up, after that it's all just continuous combustion and the only power draw is the fan.

  23. #3523
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    Except Chris already has an Espar.

    Virtually everything with a name is made somewhere else, foreign cars are made in America, American cars and made foreign. German engineering is done in Germany "maybe" and then the tooling is sent to an Eastern country. There's almost no way to Escape "Chinese made"

    The fifties "made in America" ideal is gone, even Sears an American Institution no longer has a lifetime guarantee? the name Craftsman been sold?

    Oh I remember....
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  24. #3524
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Well, I can't argue with the price or the convenience of the various forced-air diesel heaters but I just can't love them. Nor do I love the Espar that's there now. If I can get it working without a huge effort then I'd use it simply because it's there and we could be cruising rather than starting another project. But if I'm going to spend any time and money at all beyond that I'd rather put it into getting the setup that we really want. For all their faults and limitations, I do love the simple, reliable, diesel stove. I am certain that if I install one of those it will still be running when Dash inherits Skookum Maru a few decades from now (assuming we have any diesel to put in it that is, but that's a different problem). I am equally certain that anything with a computer in it will not. And I get no joy out of replacing cheap stuff with more cheap stuff when it breaks. As Dody has pointed out there is all too much of that going on in this world as it is.

  25. #3525
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I am certain that if I install one of those it will still be running when Dash inherits Skookum Maru a few decades from now (assuming we have any diesel to put in it that is, but that's a different problem).
    Will a Dickinson run on biodiesel? For that matter, will a 3-71? I have asked, but not yet found anyone who has done it. (Peter Wilcox is the only one I've met who runs biodiesel routinely, but Ama Natura has a modern Mitsubishi motor.)

    --Paul

  26. #3526
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Well, I can't argue with the price or the convenience of the various forced-air diesel heaters but I just can't love them. Nor do I love the Espar that's there now. If I can get it working without a huge effort then I'd use it simply because it's there and we could be cruising rather than starting another project. But if I'm going to spend any time and money at all beyond that I'd rather put it into getting the setup that we really want. For all their faults and limitations, I do love the simple, reliable, diesel stove. I am certain that if I install one of those it will still be running when Dash inherits Skookum Maru a few decades from now (assuming we have any diesel to put in it that is, but that's a different problem). I am equally certain that anything with a computer in it will not. And I get no joy out of replacing cheap stuff with more cheap stuff when it breaks. As Dody has pointed out there is all too much of that going on in this world as it is.
    True enough.

  27. #3527
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by _QB_ View Post
    Will a Dickinson run on biodiesel? For that matter, will a 3-71? I have asked, but not yet found anyone who has done it. (Peter Wilcox is the only one I've met who runs biodiesel routinely, but Ama Natura has a modern Mitsubishi motor.)

    --Paul
    From the Dickinson manual:

    NOTE: Bio-Diesel is not recommended for use in Dickinson diesel stove
    and heaters due to the extreme viscosity changes due to temperature changes
    and the lack of consistency available throughout the different regions. Using
    Bio-Diesel in your stove/heater can result in but is not limited to clogged
    fuel lines and oil metering valves, inconsistent burn, lack of heat, carbon
    encrusted burn pot and rich sooty burn.
    My guess is that it could be done but you might have to experiment a bit to find a consistent fuel source, and you might have to manage the fuel temperature within a narrower range than with petroleum-based diesel. And don't bother calling Dickinson if you have problems with it. For the Detroit, a casual search turns up a few comments from people saying that it's doable but no one actually doing it. I suspect that it's also possible but with some similar issues to be managed. With the range of injectors and timing settings available on a 71-series Detroit I would be surprised if you couldn't set one up to run reasonably well on biodiesel.

  28. #3528
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    For the Detroit, a casual search turns up a few comments from people saying that it's doable but no one actually doing it. I suspect that it's also possible but with some similar issues to be managed.
    Biodiesel actually works better in Detroits than regular diesel. It has more lubricity. But I am not sure anyone is doing that now because bio costs quite a bit more than dino.

    What people have done with Detroits is run them on KFC or Taco Bell waste oil. There's a guy with a website about his conversion, running around with a 200 gallon tank of waste oil in the cargo bay of his bus. The only issue is preheating it in cold weather. Says the bus smells like french fries instead of diesel exhaust

    I've thought about it but getting a few hundred gallons of used Wesson oil onto the boat might be inconvenient ... $1/gallon is interesting tho

  29. #3529
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Favorite View Post
    Biodiesel actually works better in Detroits than regular diesel. It has more lubricity. But I am not sure anyone is doing that now because bio costs quite a bit more than dino.

    What people have done with Detroits is run them on KFC or Taco Bell waste oil. There's a guy with a website about his conversion, running around with a 200 gallon tank of waste oil in the cargo bay of his bus. The only issue is preheating it in cold weather. Says the bus smells like french fries instead of diesel exhaust

    I've thought about it but getting a few hundred gallons of used Wesson oil onto the boat might be inconvenient ... $1/gallon is interesting tho
    Ah - I see. Looking for DD 6-71 and WVO turns up much more info than for biodiesel. Yes, that does look feasible. I'm not sure either option would be anything more than symbolic though. A single Seattle-to-Chicago flight burns more fuel and releases more carbon than Skookum Maru would use in a hundred years. Although it's also true that Skookum Maru could not run without the infrastructure of the same petroleum industry that enables that Seattle-to-Chicago flight. So it turns out that everything really is connected, and that it's not that easy to separate out one's personal actions from the wider implications of how we act as a group. But maybe that's a subject for a different time and place.

  30. #3530
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    Default

    Wasn't there a study or something about the amount of energy it takes to produce biofuels is actually more than if fossil fuel were used to begin with?

    Example, plug in your electric car to recharge it overnight but the electric is being generated by LOL fossil-fuel somewhere.

    I know there are people home brewing biodiesel but it I'm not quite sure how much energy is used to produce I t though..
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  31. #3531
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Wasn't there a study or something about the amount of energy it takes to produce biofuels is actually more than if fossil fuel were used to begin with?

    Example, plug in your electric car to recharge it overnight but the electric is being generated by LOL fossil-fuel somewhere.

    I know there are people home brewing biodiesel but it I'm not quite sure how much energy is used to produce I t though..
    Exactly Denise. I suspect there are all sorts of hidden costs no matter what route one chooses. Out here we get most of our electricity from "clean" hydroelectric power. Which is great as far as it goes, but the dams are not without an environmental cost either. To things like salmon runs for example. No easy solutions, but one way or another I think change is going to come. Voluntarily or not. But hey... boats! Maybe we will all end up living on vast oceanic rafts, growing algae-based biofuels in huge mats.

  32. #3532
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    "NOTE: Bio-Diesel is not recommended for use in Dickinson diesel stove
    and heaters due to the extreme viscosity changes due to temperature changes
    and the lack of consistency available throughout the different regions. Using
    Bio-Diesel in your stove/heater can result in but is not limited to clogged
    fuel lines and oil metering valves, inconsistent burn, lack of heat, carbon
    encrusted burn pot and rich sooty burn."


    I get some of that at times, but there are other factors involved that impact my situation. My Pacific stove is so old it has a single door and the old style carburator. My 4" flue pipe (not 5" like all the newer stoves) is offset forward thru a bulkhead on an athwartships on the centerline installation. If we are on the boat overnight we will fire up the stove and when living aboard for extended periods I find I do a shutdown/cleanout about every 3-4 weeks at those times. Is this bio-diesel, wind direction or velocity, aging components or design, dirty fuel, sub-standard installation or components? ....I'm not sure. I live with what I've got.

    There are two levels I operate between and the lower one has an oven temp of 350F and the kettle simmers on the hotspot. At 425F oven temp the kettle will boil in about 20-25 mins from cold. This is one place the 3-burner propane cook-top comes in handy. There is a little difference between fuel consumption so other than when we are baking or cooking roasts we will go on the lower level; this results in 40 litres of fuel over a seven-day period.

    But you know all this Chris! How well a new installation functions is beyond my experience but you still will have have an issue pushing heat from your existing stove location into your forward and aft cabins. Tie into some existing ducting perhaps? / Jim

  33. #3533
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    ^^^ Jim, the galley and diesel stove in Savona is located in the aft cabin. As I imagine yours on Accolade is as well yes? The stove on Savona did a great job of heating the aft cabin and the pilothouse but the forward cabin was always cold. There was actually a duct that was supposed to carry warm air to the forepeak but I don't know that it ever did much. All which is to say - yes, I expect that heating the forward and aft cabins will be a challenge. I have some thoughts on how to do that but also those spaces are primarily sleeping quarters so I'm less concerned about heat there than in the salon.

    My only real concern about installing a Dickinson is the size of the existing deck fitting. You can see it here, just ahead of the GPS antenna:



    I can't decide if that looks like a 4" or 5" diameter fitting. If I can just use it as-is that would definitely simplify things. But Dash and I are heading back to Blaine tomorrow to have another go at the Espar and also to measure everything for a diesel stove installation. So I'll know more after that.

  34. #3534
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    Default

    Don't know what you actually have planned for the stove installation Chris, but there is black stove pipe available.

    Also I would suggest you run the stove pipe with the crimp joints down towards the stove so condensation residue and... soot it's never going make 😇 stays inside the pipe and doesn't run/seep out the joints. It doesn't really affect the draft of the chimney like most people used to think.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  35. #3535
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Don't know what you actually have planned for the stove installation Chris, but there is black stove pipe available.

    Also I would suggest you run the stove pipe with the crimp joints down towards the stove so condensation residue and... soot it's never going make  stays inside the pipe and doesn't run/seep out the joints. It doesn't really affect the draft of the chimney like most people used to think.
    IMO, any stove - whether diesel or wood should be done this way. Otherwise you can get a real mess on the outside of the stovepipe. Especially with wood...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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