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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #3466
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    100 pages!

    Great thread Chris.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

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  2. #3467
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Another emphatic endorsement of the faithful diesel stove. Its dry heat so well suited to the Pacific Northwet. As was said, no power use, can run 24/7 in any seas. The joke with the commercial fishermen is that they light it in early September and don't put it out until late June.

    f


    Downside? Even at its lowest setting, which we run all night in cool weather, it's too hot for cooking during those couple of months of real heat we often get each summer. The previous owner had one of those butane-powered single burners and a BBQ on the back railing. We ditched the cheap butane unit and put a propane single burner out back next to the propane BBQ. We carry a small cylinder and have a Y-fitting for both appliances.

    Last edited by Sabre; 10-05-2018 at 10:19 PM.
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  3. #3468
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    100 pages!

    Great thread Chris.
    Thanks Ben! 100 pages? I think we are just getting started...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Another emphatic endorsement of the faithful diesel stove. Its dry heat so well suited to the Pacific Northwet. As was said, no power use, can run 24/7 in any seas. The joke with the commercial fishermen is that they light it in early September and don't put it out until late June.

    Downside? Even at its lowest setting, which we run all night in cool weather, it's too hot for cooking during those couple of months of real heat we often get each summer. The previous owner had one of those butane-powered single burners and a BBQ on the back railing. We ditched the cheap butane unit and put a propane single burner out back next to the propane BBQ. We carry a small cylinder and have a Y-fitting for both appliances.
    That’s a mighty clean galley Anson. Looks great! The rail-mounted grill and burner are nicely done as well. Still, having a gas cooktop in the galley sure is convenient. Ah well. Can’t have everything. Right now I’ll settle for heat any way I can get it.

  4. #3469
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I am 100% with you Chris. I loved the old Olympic Y12 on Savona. Never failed to fire up and emit endless amounts of dry warmth. The best thing on a cold and rainy day in the PNW. It must be at least sixty years old by now and it's still going strong today.

    Skookum Maru used to have a diesel stove. It was replaced with a propane range years ago but it would not be difficult to convert it back. However I'll confess that I'm getting a bit used to the convenience of propane for boiling a kettle in the morning and general cooking aboard. A diesel stove is great for heat but less handy for cooking if the weather is warm. Sure you can use a propane or butane burner for cooking when it's too warm to fire up the diesel stove but still, the propane range is nice. However I might try to find room for a simple pot burner-style diesel heater or a small wood stove aboard.

    Oh yes. The workboats out here run diesel stoves 24x7, in all sorts of weather. They really are the best way to heat a boat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Another emphatic endorsement of the faithful diesel stove. Its dry heat so well suited to the Pacific Northwet. As was said, no power use, can run 24/7 in any seas. The joke with the commercial fishermen is that they light it in early September and don't put it out until late June.

    Downside? Even at its lowest setting, which we run all night in cool weather, it's too hot for cooking during those couple of months of real heat we often get each summer. The previous owner had one of those butane-powered single burners and a BBQ on the back railing. We ditched the cheap butane unit and put a propane single burner out back next to the propane BBQ. We carry a small cylinder and have a Y-fitting for both appliances.
    Awesome, thank you, I think I've solved a problem that was keeping me busy for a long long time!!! Only shame is that I've got the deck on forwards already, and as these stoves are pretty big and heavy I don't expect I will be able to get one through my companionway. There will be a solution, there must be. Maybe with a crane into the engine-room as long as the engine is not back in yet and pull forward before I intall the bulkhead there ... Great!!!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  5. #3470
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Another emphatic endorsement of the faithful diesel stove. Its dry heat so well suited to the Pacific Northwet. As was said, no power use, can run 24/7 in any seas. The joke with the commercial fishermen is that they light it in early September and don't put it out until late June.

    f


    Downside? Even at its lowest setting, which we run all night in cool weather, it's too hot for cooking during those couple of months of real heat we often get each summer. The previous owner had one of those butane-powered single burners and a BBQ on the back railing. We ditched the cheap butane unit and put a propane single burner out back next to the propane BBQ. We carry a small cylinder and have a Y-fitting for both appliances.

    Sabre, what's the stainless pipe next to the stove, your dry stack? it looks like class A chimney stack.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  6. #3471
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Awesome, thank you, I think I've solved a problem that was keeping me busy for a long long time!!! Only shame is that I've got the deck on forwards already, and as these stoves are pretty big and heavy I don't expect I will be able to get one through my companionway. There will be a solution, there must be. Maybe with a crane into the engine-room as long as the engine is not back in yet and pull forward before I intall the bulkhead there ... Great!!!
    Dody, I do think you could put a diesel stove on Tonga. They are made in a variety of sizes and the smallest should fit easily through a companionway. Dickinson is the largest manufacturer of diesel stoves and the most common out here (http://dickinsonmarine.com/product_cat/diesel-stoves/) with Sigmar about the only alternative (http://www.sigmarine.com/SIG-200.html).

    But if you are seriously thinking about diesel heat for Tonga I think you should take a look at Refleks heaters (https://refleks-olieovne.dk/en/). They use the same simple pot burner design as the Dickinson stoves in a much smaller size. The Refleks heaters may also be more readily available in Europe.

    It's also worth mentioning that there are two main types of diesel heaters/stoves. The older style that Chris, Anson and I are talking about use a pot burner, in which diesel is metered into the burner by a low pressure regulating valve. Fuel can be supplied by gravity from a day tank or from a low pressure electric pump. Using a gravity feed, this style of stove or heater can run without electricity at all, although sometimes a small fan is used to improve the chimney draft. But even using a pump and a fan the electrical draw is quite low.

    Dickinson, Sigmar and Refleks heaters and stoves use this design. They are simple and reliable but they require a manual lighting process, take a while to heat up, the chimney must be vertical and can deposit soot on the decks and sails, and there can be a slight but noticeable diesel smell from them that some people find unpleasant. And as already mentioned, they are not convenient for cooking when the weather is warm. For me the advantages have always far outweighed the disadvantages but not everyone agrees.

    The other style uses a high pressure pump to atomize the fuel and a fan to supply air. The fuel/air mixture is burned in a combustion chamber and heat is supplied via forced air or hydronic (circulated coolant) systems. Wallas, Planar, Espar and Webasto are the most common examples of this type of heater. They are more complicated and have higher power requirements than the pot burner heaters but the combustion is more efficient so there is less smell and soot byproduct, they are automated using a thermostat, the heat can be supplied throughout the boat by ducting or hoses, and some can even manage multiple heating zones just as with a home furnace. And since the exhaust is fan-driven there is a lot more flexibility in routing it. Typically it's run out the side of the hull away from decks, sails and living spaces.

    For me the number one drawback of the high-pressure burners is the noise. The pot burner heaters and stoves are wonderfully quiet. The high-pressure heaters on the other hand are like having a little jet engine roaring away in the bilge. The heater on Skookum Maru doesn't have a muffler on the exhaust and I find it to be obnoxiously loud. I'm hoping that adding a muffler will help, and that's on my list of projects, but if that doesn't solve the problem then I might just get rid of it and go back to a nice quiet diesel stove.

  7. #3472
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    "For me the number one drawback of the high-pressure burners is the noise. The pot burner heaters and stoves are wonderfully quiet."

    This benefit may not be fully realized until you are cruising further north in the remote places. / Jim

  8. #3473
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    A muffler does make a lot of difference. And you possibly overstate the noise just slightly. But think of it as the sound of warmth and suddenly it's not bad at all. There are also now Chinese copies of the Eberspacher. They cost a couple of hundred dollars. Compared to a couple of thousand for the genuine article. For me, that noise is entirely tolerable at that price.

  9. #3474
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    "For me the number one drawback of the high-pressure burners is the noise. The pot burner heaters and stoves are wonderfully quiet."

    This benefit may not be fully realized until you are cruising further north in the remote places. / Jim
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    A muffler does make a lot of difference. And you possibly overstate the noise just slightly. But think of it as the sound of warmth and suddenly it's not bad at all. There are also now Chinese copies of the Eberspacher. They cost a couple of hundred dollars. Compared to a couple of thousand for the genuine article. For me, that noise is entirely tolerable at that price.
    Everyone has different noise sensitivity. I like quiet. A lot. Pure hell for me is the work crew on the neighbor's remodel cranking up The Eagles at 7:00 am on a Saturday morning (it went on for nearly two years - over a year past the original deadline. I like "Hotel California" as much as the next guy but even so...) Anyway, what was I saying? Oh yeah. Heater noise. Don't love it, but that's a problem for another day. I pushed off the Blaine trip until tomorrow so I could take Dash on a long-promised trip to the model train store today. That also gave me time to pick up some parts I needed to assemble a diagnostics tester for the Espar.

    As it comes from Espar the diagnostics reader is built into a control unit that is designed to be permanently mounted. But I just need to be able to plug it into the existing wire harness for the heater to read the codes so I found this handy yellow project box at an electronics store:



    A few holes drilled and some wiring work later...



    It's no Fluke meter but I think that will do nicely. Now in theory I just need to wire up the pigtail to the correct contacts on the terminal block for the heater and I'm all set. Cliff the Espar tech says that if I get it wrong I'll let all the smoke out so here's hoping I traced all the connections correctly! Fingers crossed...

  10. #3475
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Wonderful, thanks Chris for all the info's! My tolerance for unnecessary noise is very low, so, easy to decide on this one ! It needs to be one of the bigger models to have space for more than one pot on the top and to have a decent-size oven. There will be areas where we'll be living with 4 people for several months on Tonga, and I'm sure we'll need decent food then. My companionway is 65 cm by 110 cm. I will check, maybe they can even be partly dismantled. And I'll do some sketches where and how best to mount it. I only had a quick look so far, the Dickenson-stoves mention a max heel angle of 15 degrees. I did have 27+ degrees occasionally in a bad sea with accidentally too much canvas in a gust, got to find out more, but installation across the ship and in the center might be better. Thanks again!!!

    And good luck with your heater, fingers crossed!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  11. #3476
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Sabre, what's the stainless pipe next to the stove, your dry stack? it looks like class A chimney stack.
    Yup, Denise, it is indeed. Our air intake is up top and the fresh air comes down the outer "layer" of the stack while the exhaust goes up the middle. It's awfully cozy to lean up against and hug when coming in from a cold deck!
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  12. #3477
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    ...the Dickenson-stoves mention a max heel angle of 15 degrees. I did have 27+ degrees occasionally in a bad sea with accidentally too much canvas in a gust, got to find out more, but installation across the ship and in the center might be better....
    It should be noted that the pot burner stoves, when used on a sailboat, need to be installed athwartships, with the rear of the stove on a line perpendicular to the keel. Installed this way, they can take a great deal of heeling. Some have indeed installed them with the back of the stove facing outboard, primarily on power boats, but the burner isn't designed to work this way if the boat is heeling.
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  13. #3478
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Wonderful, thanks Chris for all the info's! My tolerance for unnecessary noise is very low, so, easy to decide on this one ! It needs to be one of the bigger models to have space for more than one pot on the top and to have a decent-size oven. There will be areas where we'll be living with 4 people for several months on Tonga, and I'm sure we'll need decent food then. My companionway is 65 cm by 110 cm. I will check, maybe they can even be partly dismantled. And I'll do some sketches where and how best to mount it. I only had a quick look so far, the Dickenson-stoves mention a max heel angle of 15 degrees. I did have 27+ degrees occasionally in a bad sea with accidentally too much canvas in a gust, got to find out more, but installation across the ship and in the center might be better. Thanks again!!!

    And good luck with your heater, fingers crossed!
    Thanks Dody. A few thoughts on installing and cooking with a diesel stove on Tonga:

    First, I think you would probably want the Pacific model (http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/p...el-cook-stove/). The cooktop has room for two or three pots and the oven should accommodate a standard 9" baking pan. It would easily fit through your companionway opening. Or if you have room in your galley you could go with the Adriatic (http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/a...l-cook-stoves/), which is the same depth as the Pacific but about 5" wider. I think that would also fit your companionway.

    The fuel metering valve on the stove needs to be oriented correctly for a sailboat installation so heeling won't result in fuel starvation. You can order the stove configured to mount in either orientation but you need to specify. As for the heel angle, I expect that occasional heel greater than 15 degrees wouldn't be a problem. Momentary interruption of the fuel wouldn't immediately cause the stove to go out.

    You also need to consider the location, routing and height of the chimney. Typically it needs to have a rise of at least 6' from the stove for proper draft and the run should be as straight as possible. So you would need to make sure that you can get that without interfering with sails or rigging.

    As for cooking... It's a lot like cooking on a wood stove. Heat control is pretty rudimentary. You do get different temperature zones across the cooktop so you can simmer in one spot and sauté in another but it takes some practice. It's entirely possible to cook on a diesel stove though. I did for years when I was living aboard and I have a friend who regularly turns out amazing meals on one.

    The biggest challenge is really the heat-up time. You can't just light the stove and start cooking. Figure minimum 30 minutes to bring the stove up to temperature. Ideally it's just always on, at least as long as the weather is cool enough. You can keep it on a low setting and then just turn it up when you want more heat or need to cook something.

    Now all this talking of diesel stoves is making me really want one again.

    EDIT: I'm pretty sure that the stove Anson (Sabre) has on Kingfisher in the photo above is a Dickinson Pacific, to give you some idea of the size.

  14. #3479
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    ...I'm pretty sure that the stove Anson (Sabre) has on Kingfisher in the photo above is a Dickinson Pacific, to give you some idea of the size.
    It is indeed, Chris. It's certainly a small model, but we cook all the time with it. For breakfast we use a 10" skillet but routinely use a 12 or even 14" pan for larger dinners. The right side of the top can also be used as a griddle, skipping the pan entirely. The oven is small, but we have sheet pans and roasting/cake pans that fit, and a wonderful enameled cast iron dutch oven that fits inside or can be used on the stovetop.

    Compared to the Taylor kerosene range and bulkhead heater that I had on my Bristol Channel Cutter, the Dickinson is pure heaven. No, not as convenient as propane, but it also is purely dry heat. I've cooked with propane in cold weather where the inside of the boat became a dripping swamp.
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  15. #3480
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Thanks you soooo much Chris, Anson (Sabre) and all the others, for your help and info's. What a wonderful medium this Forum is to be able to get first-hand information from people being there and and using these stoves on a regular basis! And Chris, I hope you don't mind this little detour about stoves in your thread!
    Out of curiosity, after you helped me find this solution, I've just asked some of my fishermen. Nearly all of them have been working on fishing-boats with diesel-stoves and were extremely positive. One of them went out for codfishing in the 80's, they stayed out at sea for 6 months, and the stove was going all the time without the slightest problem, giving wonderful heat and not difficult to cook on. Another big plus I can see is, that propane has a lot of dangers and it would be nice to eliminate it from Tonga. I'd like to go for the Dickinson Atlantic and will make a dummy to see if I can get it through the companionway, which might just be possible. Second-best option would be the Adriatic, but, if possible, with the burner of the Atlantic, 2 coils so I can fit tiny radiators in the aftcabin and maybe under the forward bunks. Chimney, if I place it around the area where the lower stays come down it can't get damaged by the boom of the mainsail and, got to make some drawings, I think I can get it just right below decks. Thank you heaps all again!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 10-07-2018 at 12:12 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  16. #3481
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    As an anecdote to go along with all this talk of diesel stoves: when I sailed aboard MacMillan's arctic schooner "Bowdoin," she had an *enormous* diesel-fueled modern AGA stove in her forecastle. It certainly kept the forward cabins pleasantly warm and dry, but it was rather overkill for the coast of Maine. I suspect it would have been wonderful in the arctic, but I never got to crew her north. I heard later that MMA replaced it with something a little different, and I have always wondered how they had to change her trim ballast to account for it.

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    We currently have a floor-mount Dickinson diesel heater on the port side. It works great and just sips the fuel, but it will eventually be replaced by a Pacific stove. The floor-mount heater has been promised to the foc'sle on a friend's 101 year old seiner. I'm strongly considering running a Dickinson Radex radiator heater downstairs off the starboard engine coolant. It would help on those cool days underway, and even in the summer fog and wind on the ocean here.

    20180529_113625.jpg
    F/V No Quarter
    1973 Grand Banks 42 Troller

  18. #3483
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    ^^^ That's a nice looking setup Chris. And I like the Radex idea as well. That's something I'd like for Skookum Maru. The radiators are already in place for the hydronic system so it would be easy to connect them up to route engine coolant through them, or maybe to a heat exchanger to keep the engine cooling system separate.

    Dody, one more thought on a stove for Tonga. I'd be cautious about putting something as large as an Atlantic down below. That's a big stove and it will put out a LOT of heat. Maybe not a problem for general heating as you can simply turn it down, but you might find that it's impossible to cook on it without overheating the cabin to an uncomfortable degree.

    I don't have a good sense for how much room you have below on Tonga but my guess is that the Pacific model would be entirely sufficient for heat, with the Adriatic model a reasonable alternative to get a larger cooking surface. The Adriatic is the version I would buy for Skookum Maru, for example. It would fit perfectly in the spot occupied by the original stove. I definitely agree that the heating coils are worth having though.

    As for my current project... no joy in Blaine. I drained the unburnt fuel from the exhaust (there was maybe half a cup in there - more than I'd really want to light up in the exhaust), then I wired up the diagnostic tester to the heater, turned it on, ran through the self test successfully, got to the point where it was reading the error code history... and it would restart before showing any codes. Every time. I triple-checked the wiring and I'm sure that's not the problem. The battery bank was fully charged and the voltage should be fine as well. So it's still a mystery.

    Tomorrow I'll talk to the tech who has been giving me advice to see what he says but I'm not optimistic. It sure seems like some sort of ECU problem and given the age of the unit I doubt I will be able to get the parts for it. Which is a bummer because we can't really go cruising until I solve the heat problem one way or another. Sure, we could just add another layer of sweaters and drink more hot cocoa. But that's hardly cruising in the sort of comfort that I promised my wife we would have if we bought Skookum Maru. I suspect there would be mutinous grumbling from the crew.

    The more we talk about it the more I think the right idea is to ditch both the Espar and the propane range and go back to a diesel stove. Skookum Maru is already completely set up for it so it would be an easy swap. I'll have to see if I can wring a few more pennies out of the boating budget for that project though.
    Last edited by cstevens; 10-07-2018 at 11:26 PM.

  19. #3484
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    The radiators are already in place for the hydronic system so it would be easy to connect them up to route engine coolant through them, or maybe to a heat exchanger to keep the engine cooling system separate.
    You would really need to go through a heat exchanger for the house side, since some of the radiators are higher than the engine's expansion tank. And then you need a separate pump for the house circuit, which the Espar has, but...

    The more we talk about it the more I think the right idea is to ditch both the Espar and the propane range and go back to a diesel stove.
    Yes, convert the propane locker back to a day tank for the stove, but keep the propane plumbing, valving and alarms. Then make arrangements to mount a 20 lb. propane tank outside, powering a two-burner cooktop that sits on top of the Adriatic for summer cruises.

    Of course it's your call, but I think I hear the spirit of that great old boat whispering "Do it..."!

    --Paul

  20. #3485
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Bummer about the heater not working. Particularly frustrating with the boat a way away. A honking great diesel stove sounds like the goods, but for a short term fix, I'd suggest take a look at the Chinese parking heaters. They don't heat water, so won't work the same as your current one did, but they blow a lot of hot air. Couple of hundred dollars and you are cruising. There's one model which comes in a fully self contained box. Just connect power and hook into your existing exhaust and turn it on. Instant heat.

  21. #3486
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-on-the-Boat View Post
    We currently have a floor-mount Dickinson diesel heater on the port side. It works great and just sips the fuel, but it will eventually be replaced by a Pacific stove. The floor-mount heater has been promised to the foc'sle on a friend's 101 year old seiner. I'm strongly considering running a Dickinson Radex radiator heater downstairs off the starboard engine coolant. It would help on those cool days underway, and even in the summer fog and wind on the ocean here.

    20180529_113625.jpg
    I agree with Chris, this looks really nice Chris-on-the-boat! Had a look at the Dickinson heaters too, but, well, provided the information on their website is correct, min and max fuel consumption would be the same for heating (min 0.01 gal less with the heaters) as for the stoves up to the Adriatic. The Atlantic seems to have a more powerful burner, of course it's more thirsty. If I can get a fairly tough system without heaps of electronics that gives me 3 functions instead of one at the same time - heating, stove and oven - I'm happy! I love stuff that has more than one purpose!

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Dody, one more thought on a stove for Tonga. I'd be cautious about putting something as large as an Atlantic down below. That's a big stove and it will put out a LOT of heat. Maybe not a problem for general heating as you can simply turn it down, but you might find that it's impossible to cook on it without overheating the cabin to an uncomfortable degree.

    I don't have a good sense for how much room you have below on Tonga but my guess is that the Pacific model would be entirely sufficient for heat, with the Adriatic model a reasonable alternative to get a larger cooking surface. The Adriatic is the version I would buy for Skookum Maru, for example. It would fit perfectly in the spot occupied by the original stove. I definitely agree that the heating coils are worth having though.
    You're right Chris, and thanks for telling me, I might have been carried away a tiny bit after 2 winters in an half open boat trying my best to withstand the cold. I used one of these online-calculaters, wishing for 23 º C inside when it's - 20 º C outside, using the parameters for "half insulated" and just used length x width x height of my ship instead of making a proper calculation . Wherever I go, outside-temperatures will probably not be that cold, and if, not for long. Also, I'm not planning to get frozen in the ice, so the seawater won't be this cold around the ship anyway. And I will be in areas where it's warmer too. As far as space is concerned I have as much as I want for the stove as my boat is completely empty inside (only my bunk of course), which means I can plan everything around the size of the stove. I know I'm only 11.3 ft. wide, but there still should be space enough on a 48-footer to find the right space for a proper stove. So, it's gonna be the Adriatic!

    Quote Originally Posted by _QB_ View Post
    ... powering a two-burner cooktop that sits on top of the Adriatic for summer cruises.
    Awesome, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing when I'm in warmer climates! Get a simple 2-burner, fix it to the stove, a bit of a fiddle-rail, rig up a gasbottle on deck and all good!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  22. #3487
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by _QB_ View Post
    Yes, convert the propane locker back to a day tank for the stove
    Oh wait, I realize now you are probably thinking to use the Espar's existing fuel supply system; pretty much ready to go, and as you said, its pump doesn't take much power. Anyway SM has 500+ Ah of house bank...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Get a simple 2-burner, fix it to the stove, a bit of a fiddle-rail...
    This Dickinson stovetop would look good there: http://dickinsonmarine.com/product/t...op-in-cooktop/ Not cheap, but it does have all the interlocks you'd want for a marine application, and it's design coordinated!

    --Paul

  23. #3488
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Paul, I've been looking at that Dickinson drop-in unit too. I could build it into a temporary stove-top setup of some sort as Dody is thinking, but even better...



    ...it would fit perfectly in that space between the sink and the stove. Installation would be easy since the propane system is already in place. We'd have to lose the cutting board and top drawer but it wouldn't be a permanent modification. Just need a cut out in the counter for it and some sort of cover for the drawer openings. Then if for any reason we wanted to to swap it back we could just remove the drop-in unit and put the drawer and cutting board back in. Cover up the hole with a suitable section of countertop and it's back the way Ed Monk intended.

    As for the diesel stove installation, yes - I'd probably just use the fuel line that's running to the Espar. The low pressure pump and regulator are perfect for the Dickinson stove so no modifications are needed there. And I can even use the wiring for the existing exhaust fan to power the fan on the Dickinson. Really it couldn't get much easier.

    Phil, I took a look at those Chinese Webasto copies. I agree they look like a cheap solution but there doesn't seem to be any supplier in the U.S. as far as I can tell. I could order one through AliExpress but to be honest I'm reluctant to install anything that I can't get support for and even more reluctant to install a heating appliance of unknown quality.

    No, I'm pretty sold on the idea of the diesel stove with propane cooktop. Seems like we get the best of all possible worlds that way. Reliable, quiet diesel heat for the ten months of the year when you want it around here, plus convenient gas cooking when it's too hot to cook on the diesel stove. So I guess that's the next project then.

    In the meantime there is still a chance that I will be able to get the Espar working again. I talked to Cliff, the Espar tech, again this morning. Part of the problem is that the company that did the installation modified the wiring from the factory setup so it's tough to know why the diagnostics unit was failing. But Cliff dug up an old wiring diagram that matches what I have and based on that he gave me a few more things to try that might get the diagnostics mode to work. We'll see.

  24. #3489
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Those are awesome! Do it! Those Espar heaters do not have the lifespan of a Dickinson and you can't cook on them either. My folks have a two burner propane stove they set on top of their Dickinson in the summer when it's too hot for the big guy. You lose the oven but who bakes in the summer anyway?

  25. #3490
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post

    Phil, I took a look at those Chinese Webasto copies. I agree they look like a cheap solution but there doesn't seem to be any supplier in the U.S. as far as I can tell. I could order one through AliExpress but to be honest I'm reluctant to install anything that I can't get support for and even more reluctant to install a heating appliance of unknown quality.

    .
    I hear what you are saying, but Im more of a get on with it kind of a guy, or like to try to convince myself I am anyway. The chinese heaters are on ebay here, probably the same where you are. Couple of hundred dollars and you are good for the season, while you go another hundred pages on this thread debating the details of a Dickensian. They are so cheap you dont need support, just buy 2. Probably cheaper than the analytical thing you got for the existing heater. Or theres a facebook page with lots of technical stuff on them. And yes, long term go for the cookstove. But its a bit like when the rich guy bent his pushpit, and was worried about losing a season while he waited for a new pushpit. Seriously?

  26. #3491
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerwagon View Post
    Those are awesome! Do it! Those Espar heaters do not have the lifespan of a Dickinson and you can't cook on them either. My folks have a two burner propane stove they set on top of their Dickinson in the summer when it's too hot for the big guy. You lose the oven but who bakes in the summer anyway?
    Exactly. Ovens are for fall and winter meals. Pies, roasts, turkey tetrazzini....mmmmm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I hear what you are saying, but Im more of a get on with it kind of a guy, or like to try to convince myself I am anyway. The chinese heaters are on ebay here, probably the same where you are. Couple of hundred dollars and you are good for the season, while you go another hundred pages on this thread debating the details of a Dickensian. They are so cheap you dont need support, just buy 2. Probably cheaper than the analytical thing you got for the existing heater. Or theres a facebook page with lots of technical stuff on them. And yes, long term go for the cookstove. But its a bit like when the rich guy bent his pushpit, and was worried about losing a season while he waited for a new pushpit. Seriously?
    Hm. Those are all good points Phil. I'm not sure why I didn't think of looking on eBay. Turns out Amazon has them as well. And you're right - for the price you could just replace one if it breaks. Tempting, and I might go that route if we can't install the diesel stove this fall. But I think we will be able to get that done assuming there are no unexpected challenges with the installation. Plus think of all the entertainment you'll miss if I just go with the easy option. What will you do for reading material if we don't spend the next few pages debating the finer points of chimney routing, heating coils, fuel pumps, etc., ad nauseam?

  27. #3492
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Exactly. Ovens are for fall and winter meals. Pies, roasts, turkey tetrazzini....mmmmm.



    Hm. Those are all good points Phil. I'm not sure why I didn't think of looking on eBay. Turns out Amazon has them as well. And you're right - for the price you could just replace one if it breaks. Tempting, and I might go that route if we can't install the diesel stove this fall. But I think we will be able to get that done assuming there are no unexpected challenges with the installation. Plus think of all the entertainment you'll miss if I just go with the easy option. What will you do for reading material if we don't spend the next few pages debating the finer points of chimney routing, heating coils, fuel pumps, etc., ad nauseam?
    Oh yes, please, please, do!!! Would be awesome for me to follow your installation !!!
    I know, sometimes we've just got to go for the detour and that's alright. But I always find it such a shame for all the raw materials our planet has produced hundreds or thousands or even many more years ago only to make something cheap that lasts a very short time and is ready for the bin again. It feels like a big waste of resources we might need more urgently for other things at a later stage. And even so, they don't come for free but we've got to spend money to get them.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  28. #3493
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Exactly. Ovens are for fall and winter meals. Pies, roasts, turkey tetrazzini....mmmmm.



    Hm. Those are all good points Phil. I'm not sure why I didn't think of looking on eBay. Turns out Amazon has them as well. And you're right - for the price you could just replace one if it breaks. Tempting, and I might go that route if we can't install the diesel stove this fall. But I think we will be able to get that done assuming there are no unexpected challenges with the installation. Plus think of all the entertainment you'll miss if I just go with the easy option. What will you do for reading material if we don't spend the next few pages debating the finer points of chimney routing, heating coils, fuel pumps, etc., ad nauseam?
    Oh we will still do that, the Chineberspacher would just be short term. I was thinking last night, your current heater might just be gunked up. Happens a lot. Apparently not at all hard to take apart and give it a clean inside the combustion chamber.

  29. #3494
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"


  30. #3495
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    Default

    WOW! over 2k when new. $100 in easy off = good as new!
    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  31. #3496
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    WOW! over 2k when new. $100 in easy off = good as new!
    Even if it needs work on the "carb," especially considering that the Canadian dollar is $0.77 US, this is a steal.
    --​Anson, M/V Kingfisher

    Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. ~The Dalai Lama

  32. #3497
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Oh yes, please, please, do!!! Would be awesome for me to follow your installation !!!
    I know, sometimes we've just got to go for the detour and that's alright. But I always find it such a shame for all the raw materials our planet has produced hundreds or thousands or even many more years ago only to make something cheap that lasts a very short time and is ready for the bin again. It feels like a big waste of resources we might need more urgently for other things at a later stage. And even so, they don't come for free but we've got to spend money to get them.
    Of course Dody! Should be fun

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Oh we will still do that, the Chineberspacher would just be short term. I was thinking last night, your current heater might just be gunked up. Happens a lot. Apparently not at all hard to take apart and give it a clean inside the combustion chamber.
    That's a good thought Phil. Something to try anyway. Can't say I'm really looking forward to that job though.

    Quote Originally Posted by chas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    WOW! over 2k when new. $100 in easy off = good as new!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabre View Post
    Even if it needs work on the "carb," especially considering that the Canadian dollar is $0.77 US, this is a steal.
    That is a good deal! I'm pretty set on the larger Adriatic stove though, as it will be a better fit in the original opening and the larger size will be handy both for heat and cooking. If I'm going to swap out the propane range for a diesel stove I might as well get the one I want. Sure it's more expensive but a year from now I won't care about that but I will still be happy with the stove.

    Right now my plan is to head back to Blaine in a few days to make another attempt to get the Espar working again. At the same time I'll take some measurements and have a look at what would be needed to install the Adriatic in place of the propane stove. Based on the results of that trip I'll decide how to proceed.

    In the meantime I'm going to tackle some badly-needed organization. Over the last few years and various haulouts and other projects I've managed to spread all of my tools and supplies across two separate shop spaces, and now two different boats, with everything piled indiscriminately into containers, tool bags, two different tool chests in different locations... it's a mess and I get cranky every time I go to look for something only to realize that it's in some other place entirely. It's been this way for waaaaay too long and I'm determined solve it before I do even one more thing.

  33. #3498
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    That ad says $500 when I look at it, but id buy it if it wasnt on the other side of the world.

  34. #3499
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    Default

    Doing some casual reading, seems most of the negatives (not that there are many)are about cooking on the top, which is somewhat equivalent to cooking on a hot griddle. That could be a problem for many of us because we are used to adjustable burners.

    If I had the dream of living aboard and the dream of affording all the wonderful bells and whistles that we all dream of, I would probably have diesel heater & a cng or lpg range, (co2,monox,&h20 alarms and sensors included) oh of course need to include cooking on the rail when Outdoors!

    Stove operation 24/7 on a fishing boat with a crew probably made a lot of sense I don't know how that can translate to living aboard. But you will never find me in Florida either lol

    I know LPG is always a "heated" argument whenever it's mentioned.

    There are pressurized kero burner stoves, but I think they may be ancient technology although the appeal of the blue burner persists...

    I've often wondered about the Wallas type.
    http://www.wallas.fi/index.php?id=53
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 10-09-2018 at 09:35 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  35. #3500
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    You could have an oven (of sorts) with a stove top.
    All through my childhood, my mother used one of these on the Primus stove in our boat.
    http://omniasweden.com/en/home/

    We had lasagna, pizza, meatloaf, fresh bread, cinnamon buns, birthday cake, you name it.
    It really works

    I still have it and use it on my Trangia camping stove, it's worth the weight even on a week long trek just to be able to have some hot sponge cake while looking at the mountains and knowing that the nearest electricity is 150km away
    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    Probably the greatest thread in the history of the WoodenBoat Forum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Probably the greatest post in the history of the WoodenBoat Forum.
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