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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #2871
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    When I installed the spin-on adapter on my Chris Craft 283, I had real issues getting the O ring in between the adapter & the base to seal properly. The one that came with the adapter wasn't quite high enough - so I grabbed the one from the original cartridge filter (well - a new one that came with a new filter - which I then threw away). After installing the thicker O ring - leakage stopped.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #2872
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    When I installed the spin-on adapter on my Chris Craft 283, I had real issues getting the O ring in between the adapter & the base to seal properly. The one that came with the adapter wasn't quite high enough - so I grabbed the one from the original cartridge filter (well - a new one that came with a new filter - which I then threw away). After installing the thicker O ring - leakage stopped.
    Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. In fact the adaptor came with two inner o-rings, a thin one and a thick one. The thin one was supposed to be used for some specific casting number that there was no way I would be able find on the unit I have so I went with the thicker seal since it was the default. But using the thin inner seal would compress the outer seal more so that might be worth trying. I can also see if the cartridge o-right is any thicker. Of course all this requires removing the filter and mucking about with that fuel line again...

  3. #2873
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Sorry to read this about your filter! It's bad enough that it happened, but then the space to work in is so tight, light is not very good and one can't really see what's going on. I guess you have made sure there is no hairline crack in the attachment where the filter screws on? I've found out it's sometimes help big time to make close-up fotos from places I can reach with my hand but can't properly get to to see something.
    Last edited by Dody; 07-15-2018 at 08:26 AM.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  4. #2874
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    So the people that make this adapter don't give you instructions specific enough to not have leaks. Like on my truck we replaced the transmission and part of the job is replacing all of the hydraulic clutch components, there were no instructions how to route the plastic line between the slave cylinder and master cylinder, it took me a whole day to figure it out. After it was in, it was a no-brainer like duh? that's how it goes!
    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. In fact the adaptor came with two inner o-rings, a thin one and a thick one. The thin one was supposed to be used for some specific casting number that there was no way I would be able find on the unit I have so I went with the thicker seal since it was the default. But using the thin inner seal would compress the outer seal more so that might be worth trying. I can also see if the cartridge o-right is any thicker. Of course all this requires removing the filter and mucking about with that fuel line again...
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #2875
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Sorry to read this about your filter! It's bad enough that it happened, but then the space to work in is so tight, light is not very good and one can't really see what's going on. I guess you have made sure there is no hairline crack in the attachment where the filter screws on? I've found out it's sometimes help big time to make close-up fotos from places I can reach with my hand but can't properly get to to see something.
    Thanks Dody. You're right - the space is tight and the light is bad. But the real challenge is that the engine is so rusty and dirty that it's almost impossible to keep bits of debris from getting in places that they shouldn't - like open fuel lines and oil passages. I really want to just demolish the forward bulkhead and cabin sole in the pilothouse (which need to be replaced anyway), open it all up and give the entire engine compartment a good cleaning - and at the same time get better access to the engine. I know I should be trying to finish current projects not start new ones right now but it's tempting.

    And good point about the possibility of a crack. Hadn't thought of that either. I'm inclined to think that's not the problem for a couple of reasons - mostly that the leak is somewhat intermittent so it seems more like poor sealing - but it's worth having a closer look at that casting in any case. Project for today.

  6. #2876
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    So the people that make this adapter don't give you instructions specific enough to not have leaks. Like on my truck we replaced the transmission and part of the job is replacing all of the hydraulic clutch components, there were no instructions how to route the plastic line between the slave cylinder and master cylinder, it took me a whole day to figure it out. After it was in, it was a no-brainer like duh? that's how it goes!
    I don't know Denise? Seems like the adapter is ok and it came with what I consider to be pretty detailed instructions for something with only two major pieces to it, plus some seals and washers. Baldwin is a reputable company and this conversion is used on many thousands of engines. I think it's more likely something I am doing wrong or something about this engine that is causing the problem.

  7. #2877
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    And an interesting update from the boatdiesel forum. A member there suggests that I may be using the wrong outer gasket. The cartridge filter (and the adapter) comes with a rubber o-ring seal and a flat paper gasket. When I first changed the filter last year I used the o-ring since it seemed to fit the housing better than the paper gasket and I couldn't find any gasket on the old filter. That's when the problem started. But the boatdiesel member says that the paper gasket is the most common one for the 3-53. Now I'm thinking that I just couldn't see the old gasket on the filter I removed because it was adhered to the cartridge and covered in dirty oil. And that I've been using the wrong one ever since. Fingers crossed it's that simple!

  8. #2878
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Thanks Dody. You're right - the space is tight and the light is bad. But the real challenge is that the engine is so rusty and dirty that it's almost impossible to keep bits of debris from getting in places that they shouldn't - like open fuel lines and oil passages. I really want to just demolish the forward bulkhead and cabin sole in the pilothouse (which need to be replaced anyway), open it all up and give the entire engine compartment a good cleaning - and at the same time get better access to the engine. I know I should be trying to finish current projects not start new ones right now but it's tempting.

    And good point about the possibility of a crack. Hadn't thought of that either. I'm inclined to think that's not the problem for a couple of reasons - mostly that the leak is somewhat intermittent so it seems more like poor sealing - but it's worth having a closer look at that casting in any case. Project for today.
    I really hope for you that it's not a crack in the casting, although this can be intermittent too when the material expands and retracts with different temperatures and is usually very hard to find. It's only that I wanted to mention this can be an issue as well. Let's not think about it and just hope it's the seal of the filter!

    Oh I can understand you only too well, but don't get tempted now! Just get that leak sorted, don't loose your sleep over it, and leave the rest for any time later. And when this time has come you'll just take the engine out, steam-clean her, give her a lightcoloured lick of paint so you can see all trouble the moment it starts and change whatever you like. By this time you will have found out if the wet exhaust helps with the noise and a lot of other things. Summer is here now, and now is when you and your family can happily play with Petrel out there and enjoy life with her!
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  9. #2879
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    I really hope for you that it's not a crack in the casting, although this can be intermittent too when the material expands and retracts with different temperatures and is usually very hard to find. It's only that I wanted to mention this can be an issue as well. Let's not think about it and just hope it's the seal of the filter!

    Oh I can understand you only too well, but don't get tempted now! Just get that leak sorted, don't loose your sleep over it, and leave the rest for any time later. And when this time has come you'll just take the engine out, steam-clean her, give her a lightcoloured lick of paint so you can see all trouble the moment it starts and change whatever you like. By this time you will have found out if the wet exhaust helps with the noise and a lot of other things. Summer is here now, and now is when you and your family can happily play with Petrel out there and enjoy life with her!
    Good advice - thanks Dody. I will restrain my destructive impulses! More later once I've had a chance to take another pass at the oil filter.

  10. #2880
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    Chris, if it's the filter, wouldn't it have to be the filter o-ring? how about a little grease on it?
    Although.. if we are looking (down?) the seam of the filter has oil in it.... bad seam?
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 07-15-2018 at 11:01 AM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  11. #2881
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Sorry to report Chris, Barnacle is pulling out right now for Hood Canal until fall.

    8D453728-29A4-4D24-BB45-5822754DAEB4.jpg
    Last edited by ron ll; 07-15-2018 at 11:25 AM.

  12. #2882
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Aluminum???
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  13. #2883
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Chris, if it's the filter, wouldn't it have to be the filter o-ring? how about a little grease on it?
    Although.. if we are looking (down?) the seam of the filter has oil in it.... bad seam?
    Not the filter I think, since it's been a problem with two completely different filters. Still working on it...

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Sorry to report Chris, Barnacle is pulling out right now for Hood Canal until fall.
    Ah well. They have to come back sometime!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Aluminum???
    No this one Denise. The aluminum ones were used in an off-road military transport vehicle called the Gama Goat. Civilians got the iron version although you can easily find surplus aluminum motors so it's not impossible.

    Back to the oil leak though. Dash and I went back to Petrel today to try a few things. Swapping out gaskets mostly. With better lighting this time as well:



    First step, have a look at the outer gasket. I pulled the obstructing fuel line again, unscrewed the filter, unbent the tab washer, unscrewed the adapter plate and pulled everything apart again. A good look at the outer o-ring showed that it was a bit distorted where it had been leaking. "Ah ha!" I thought, "A clue!" So then I tried using the alternate paper gasket that came with the adapter. I had high hopes for that option but it was immediately obvious that it was not going to work as it was too large and would not lie flat against the sealing surface. Not that either then. Hmmmm.

    Well, maybe just more careful assembly? Perhaps the o-ring was distorted when I tightened the adapter down. So I put it all back together again with the o-ring, taking care to not let the adapter move at all as I tightened it down. Fuel line hooked up again. Gloves off. Tools cleared away. Turn the key. Oil pressure coming up....? And no joy. Still leaking. In another place now if that makes any difference although I'm not sure what that means.

    It really looked like it was leaking from the filter seal not the adapter seal though. So maybe I just need to tighten down the filter a bit more? I had a strap wrench just a short walk away at the shop so Dash and I hiked the few blocks, dug it out of a pile of tools that I need to sort and put away, and headed back to the boat. Strap wrench on and give it a turn... I got it to turn maybe an eighth farther than I could do by hand but no more. Filter too slippery for the wrench to do any more than that. But worth a try anyway. Gloves off, tools down, key on... And nope, still leaking.

    Sigh. Not sure what to try next really. Better strap wrench to put more torque on the filter? Different gaskets? Might need to bring in some professional help on this one. Nothing else I could do right then in any case so Dash and I just hung out on the boat for the rest of the morning and played with ropes and things. Not a bad way to spend the day.

  14. #2884
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Damn.

    Making the filter tighter won't do it. In fact, over-tightening an oil filter can make it leak. An O ring - or square ring that has distorted will probably leak.

    If it were me (& I used to play a mechanic on TV), I'd take the filter off, clean everything around it as clean as I possibly could (so there is no oil anywhere), put a new filter on (tightened normally) & crank the engine just enough to get some pressure. Then, using a mirror or whatever (phone pics?), I'd check to see exactly where the leak is coming from. If you catch the leak before too much oil comes out, you should be able to see right where it is.

    Wish I weren't on the other side of the country...
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  15. #2885
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Damn.

    Making the filter tighter won't do it. In fact, over-tightening an oil filter can make it leak. An O ring - or square ring that has distorted will probably leak.

    If it were me (& I used to play a mechanic on TV), I'd take the filter off, clean everything around it as clean as I possibly could (so there is no oil anywhere), put a new filter on (tightened normally) & crank the engine just enough to get some pressure. Then, using a mirror or whatever (phone pics?), I'd check to see exactly where the leak is coming from. If you catch the leak before too much oil comes out, you should be able to see right where it is.

    Wish I weren't on the other side of the country...
    Thanks Garret. It's just as helpful to know what I *shouldn't* do as what I should do. So don't whale on the filter with the biggest wrench I can find. Ok! I like your idea of shutting off just as the leak starts to see where it's coming from but I'm also thinking that the location of the leak changed when I reassembled everything. It was directly aft yesterday and now it's more a bit forward/port. So that means... what? It's not a crack in the base casting since that would not have moved. Could be a damaged gasket. Could be a crack in the adapter. Could mean nothing at all - just that the seal is weak and that the oil will come out wherever it's weakest at that moment.

    When I was racing motorcycles I ran a big four stroke single cylinder bike - a Yamaha SRX600 - for a few years. The motor was built about as far as possible while keeping the original cylinder and head castings, including an overbore so large that the the head gasket became very narrow, especially around one particular oil passage. It would last maybe two or three races and then the head gasket would blow right at that oil passage every time, dumping oil all over the rear tire. Never went down that way but came close a couple of times. I finally had the cylinder o-ringed (which involves cutting a groove in the sealing face and pressing a wire into it to put more pressure on the head gasket) and it stopped blowing up. This problem is feeling like that mess all over again.

    Anyway, I do have another paper gasket that came with a cartridge filter so I can try that in place of the o-ring. And I can try replacing the inner gasket with the thinner one that came with the adapter. I'll take another run at it this week.

  16. #2886
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I think the thing you have to be absolutely sure on is whether it's the filter or the adapter that's leaking. That's where getting it spic & span & well lighted comes in... To really go nuts (& maybe make life easier) - get it all totally clean, wipe down with alcohol & paint it white. That lovely black diesel oil will really show up then.

    As far as the location changing - you changed both things (adapter & filter) - so it still could be leaking from either. I suspect the adapter - as spin-on oil filters are pretty forgiving. I 'spose it could be a bad filter, but Baldwin is a top-notch manufacturer.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  17. #2887
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I think the thing you have to be absolutely sure on is whether it's the filter or the adapter that's leaking. That's where getting it spic & span & well lighted comes in... To really go nuts (& maybe make life easier) - get it all totally clean, wipe down with alcohol & paint it white. That lovely black diesel oil will really show up then.
    Yes, good point. Having that info would at least cut down the number of possible causes by half. Ok that's the next step then. No need to paint it white though. The aluminum casting of the adapter shows the oil very well as it is.

  18. #2888
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Good luck!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  19. #2889
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post







    .
    This is the place I would be first looking for an anomaly.

  20. #2890
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    I hope it's just the O-ring
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  21. #2891
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    Saw this the other day. Another commercial vessel with the same bypass system.

    Good luck getting that filter done. It sucks when stuff keeps compounding, and you feel like you're going backwards.

  22. #2892
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris,
    I believe you should be using the 2 flat thin gaskets, not the o ring. The O ring requires a groove in the housing.

  23. #2893
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    Saw this the other day. Another commercial vessel with the same bypass system.

    Good luck getting that filter done. It sucks when stuff keeps compounding, and you feel like you're going backwards.
    snow pea, why is that cylinder and bypass wrapped in what looks like brown paper?

  24. #2894
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    Default Re: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    how exactly does the filter adapter housing attach ??
    my old dodge truck uses a cartridge-to-spin on adapter plate.. i imagine yours is similar ?
    there's two paper gaskets, one large diameter to seal the plate to the engine block,
    and a small diameter to seal the hollow bolt to the plate..
    then the standard square o-ring that comes with the spin on
    the sealing surface on the block should be a pretty clean machined surface
    but coating the gasket in grease might help it seal

    (had to comment because i have an srx600 too.. and an xt600 !)


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