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Thread: Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

  1. #1471
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Yes, for sure - but which boat? A 17' sail-and-oar dory that I don't own yet (and really shouldn't even be thinking about)? The 17' Whitehall sitting in my shop waiting for paint and varnish? The 11' fiberglass dinghyT that I'm still planning to restore as a tender? Either of two 16' kayaks that would be nice to have for gunkholing? Can't take them all.
    You are over thinking it. You already have the boat.

    The whitehall for gunkholing and general enjoyment. The tupperware punt for those trips where you need a small tender for going from Petrel to the dock and back with more risk of bumps and scrapes.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You are over thinking it. You already have the boat.

    The whitehall for gunkholing and general enjoyment. The tupperware punt for those trips where you need a small tender for going from Petrel to the dock and back with more risk of bumps and scrapes.
    Yes, in reality that's the general plan. I'm just making fun of my wandering eye. There's always something out there that makes me think "that would be fun!", but when you come right down to it when would I have the time for all those boats? I don't even get to spend as much time on Petrel as I would like.
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  3. #1473
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Went down to Petrel this morning to start on the measuring project but on the way I took a detour to look at some boats. First up was this little Monk cruiser that's for sale on craigslist right now.



    It's an interesting boat, and while it has Monk-like characteristics it's not like any other Monk design I've seen. I'd guess it was a work boat or patrol boat of some sort, possibly built by Grandy or Jensen. But that's all complete speculation. I first saw it in the background of a photo of a Concordia Hurricane motorsailer that was for sale here a few years back. I was intrigued then but when I went to track it down the marina it was in had been closed and turned into a storage lot. Then a few years later I came across it on the Ship Canal while out rowing the Whitehall. I like it a lot and if I didn't have Petrel I would be tempted. But it's very rough. A project only for the brave.

    Then as I was walking back to my truck I came across this little beauty, named the "Katie L", in the yard at CSR.



    No idea what it is but it looks very Garden-esque. Or maybe a Jay Benford design.

    Boat tour done, I spent the rest of the morning with a level and a tape measure taking some dimensions from Petrel. I haven't finished it yet, but I got enough done to be able to create more accurate elevation drawings to scale. They aren't completely rendered yet but it's enough to get an idea of the difference.

    First, Petrel as she is now:



    Then with an enlarged pilothouse/salon:



    The salon ends up being about 9' long by 7' wide. That's enough for a settee/berth, galley sink and diesel stove and dedicated helm seating. Pure luxury compared to what we have now. And the aft deck is still about 8' x 8' so plenty of room for sitting outside. I have a few refinements in mind, and I'm also going to create drawings of the various other options that we have discussed here for comparison but so far I'm liking this direction a lot.
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  4. #1474
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Not to sound critical Chris, but. How about a bit more sweep to the lines of both cabin tops. At present it looks like a transplant from another boat.

    2c

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    Not to sound critical Chris, but. How about a bit more sweep to the lines of both cabin tops. At present it looks like a transplant from another boat.

    2c
    Yes, I agree. It's a bit chunky as I have it now and that's one of the refinements I want to try. It's a little tricky to make that work without losing too much headroom though. It's not shown in these drawings but I also made some changes to the forecabin sole to make it level (yes - eliminating the infamous step!) and to provide more clearance under the pilothouse for sound proofing. Plus I think the increased amount of camber in the pilothouse top might look awkward if it also follows the sheer in profile. But now I have the basic lines set down I can tweak it as much as I like to get a version that works.

    Any other comments? Criticism is really the goal right now so please ,everyone, tell me what you don't like!
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    I like it a lot.
    It retains the style and look of the original, but makes her far more useable her it's intended future.
    This will help to ensure that you (and any future owners) use her and look after her.
    Keeping them relevant to modern expectations is the key to survival of any old boat in my mind.
    A few pages back in this thread there was a very tidy, very original workboat that was sitting around unsold.
    Unfortunately she has no use other than as an exhibit.
    If you went much bigger than that, she might start to look wrong.
    Execution is the key as many older boats get plywood abominations added to make them more useable. I try not to look!

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacko View Post
    I like it a lot.
    It retains the style and look of the original, but makes her far more useable her it's intended future.
    This will help to ensure that you (and any future owners) use her and look after her.
    Keeping them relevant to modern expectations is the key to survival of any old boat in my mind.
    A few pages back in this thread there was a very tidy, very original workboat that was sitting around unsold.
    Unfortunately she has no use other than as an exhibit.
    If you went much bigger than that, she might start to look wrong.
    Execution is the key as many older boats get plywood abominations added to make them more useable. I try not to look!
    Thanks Slacko. That's definitely the plan, and I agree about the importance of execution. It will need to look right when it's done. More sketching needed I think. Round two coming up later.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post

    Any other comments? Criticism is really the goal right now so please ,everyone, tell me what you don't like!
    Just what andrewpatrol said. Ideally, follow the original cabin lines aft more or less parallel to the sheer, as far as you need to take them.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Just what andrewpatrol said. Ideally, follow the original cabin lines aft more or less parallel to the sheer, as far as you need to take them.
    Yes, that would seem to be the right idea. Unfortunately it's a bit more complicated than that for a number of reasons. I'll post some drawings later to illustrate, but the main issue is that the pilothouse sole slopes aft quite a bit. That's necessary to allow for the house to follow the sheer while maintaining headroom. It's not a huge issue with the small pilothouse Petrel has now but it gets a bit challenging when you start extending it further aft. I think that much slope over a larger area would be uncomfortable for one thing, plus it makes for a large drop from the deck level. I can't level the sole by lowering the forward end because there isn't room over the engine. And if I raise the aft end then the pilothouse has to go up as well. There might be other options. The engine could go back a few inches, which would drop it down a bit. I could live with the slope. I could put a step at the forward half of the salon to clear the engine... I'm going to try a few versions and see what works.

    There is also the issue that just maintaining the current lines while making the pilothouse larger doesn't work that well visually. The flat-top "phone booth" house looks great at the smaller size, but if you make it too large (wide/long) it starts to look very boxy without some camber to the top.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Thanks Slacko. That's definitely the plan, and I agree about the importance of execution. It will need to look right when it's done. More sketching needed I think. Round two coming up later.
    Just my worthless $0.02. Chris, Mast could go forward Center or the what's it called Center of effort? Sorry I haven't memorized all the nautical terms, this one seems to escape me Lol know you don't want it on top of the cabin

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Yes, that would seem to be the right idea. Unfortunately it's a bit more complicated than that for a number of reasons. I'll post some drawings later to illustrate, but the main issue is that the pilothouse sole slopes aft quite a bit. That's necessary to allow for the house to follow the sheer while maintaining headroom. It's not a huge issue with the small pilothouse Petrel has now but it gets a bit challenging when you start extending it further aft. I think that much slope over a larger area would be uncomfortable for one thing, plus it makes for a large drop from the deck level. I can't level the sole by lowering the forward end because there isn't room over the engine. And if I raise the aft end then the pilothouse has to go up as well. There might be other options. The engine could go back a few inches, which would drop it down a bit. I could live with the slope. I could put a step at the forward half of the salon to clear the engine... I'm going to try a few versions and see what works.

    There is also the issue that just maintaining the current lines while making the pilothouse larger doesn't work that well visually. The flat-top "phone booth" house looks great at the smaller size, but if you make it too large (wide/long) it starts to look very boxy without some camber to the top.

    Designing boats is hard. Who knew?
    I see what you mean, and it's quite a serious issue. A friend of mine had taken his old wheelhouse away, which was just forward of amidships, to replace it with a new wheelhouse further forward to have better visibility when finding the buoy at the start of the net and have more space aft. Because of the slope of the wheelhouse-floor it was constantly like standing uphill which gave him cramps and felt very unconfortable. They couldn't just rise and change the wheelhouse-floor as there would not be enough headroom. They couldn't rise the cabin for stability and optical reasons. In the end they took the new wheelhouse off again, built a new floor, lower down and horizontal where the wheelhouse was going, and installed the new wheelhouse again. Now he's happy.

    In your case, having a sloping floor in itself, in the areas where you are walking, I don't think it's too much of a problem as one gets used to it with time - same as you get used to it when walking around your deck. Important is horizontal seating, tables etc. and, at the helm where you might be standing from time to time, to have a proper horizontal surface.
    fair winds, Dody

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Tad Roberts' North Coast 18

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Thanks everyone. Good feedback! JimD, you can be sure that I am spending a LOT of time looking at Tad Roberts' designs right now. That's a good reference though. Here's another take with a bit more shape to the cabin lines.



    Still enough headroom I think, but not quite so rectangular....
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    And a version showing above the waterline only...

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Chris, could you raise the ‘bridge” or forward part of upper cabin say a foot or so and give that a rear wards slope.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Not that my opinion counts for much around here but to my eye it will never look right with those straight and (almost) horizontal lines. One way or another the cabin top needs at least a little slope or curve or both



    Although this sketch does look much better that the ones above. Perhaps it is bigger windows, less roof camber, and more overhang forward (visor?).

    Last edited by JimD; 10-16-2017 at 06:01 PM.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Ok... More good feedback and I agree with pretty much everything being said. Some thoughts on the general "needs more curve/slope" comments. I agree that would be better. And the photo of the larger Petrel shows how nice that can look. That's a truly spectacular boat. The challenge is that my Petrel is a lot smaller than that one. And while the boat can shrink, people can't. My original rough rendering looks nice but it doesn't work in reality because the roofline is too low given where the cabin sole has to be.

    For comparison here is a version that retains as much of the original lines as possible while creating the same amount of space as the previous version. The windows are a bit larger and the pilothouse is full-width but otherwise it's just extended along the original curve as much as possible while retaining sufficient height.



    It's... a box. On a boat. Andrew, you asked about raising the forward edge of the pilothouse. That's doable of course but I think it would make the house look top heavy. And there are a couple of other things to consider:

    1. With a cambered top construction becomes an issue. I don't think that it's possible to build a cambered panel with a concave longitudinal arc out of plywood. Which I suspect is the reason that all of the cambered cabin tops I've seen are flat in profile.

    2. If I stick with the original flat cross section then I can play with the design a bit to give it more curve but I'm still restricted by the cabin sole position and an aesthetic limit on how high the forward edge can be.

    It's a puzzle. Reducing the amount of camber in the arched top design might help. I could also refine the flat top design a bit more.

    Any other suggestions?
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    Camber is your friend when trying to lower the apparent height of a deckhouse. A flat non cambered top will look awful. Getting a compound curve is not to hard with a few thin layers of plywood laminated in big strips. And if it is designed cleverly deck beams may not be needed gaining you a few more inches of precious headroom.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    1. With a cambered top construction becomes an issue. I don't think that it's possible to build a cambered panel with a concave longitudinal arc out of plywood. Which I suspect is the reason that all of the cambered cabin tops I've seen are flat in profile.
    I couldn't say if plywood would contort (I refuse to use the 't' word) enough to get at least a hint of a saddle shape. It would be nice if someone who had worked it all out, ie, cutting slits or narrow darts that fan out, are then filled, fared, and so on. Or strip plank it, which would work, but also be a lot more work. But it's such a beautiful boat to just bend plywood sheet over the top. That last drawing looks better, but...it still looks like....
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    Camber is your friend when trying to lower the apparent height of a deckhouse. A flat non cambered top will look awful. Getting a compound curve is not to hard with a few thin layers of plywood laminated in big strips. And if it is designed cleverly deck beams may not be needed gaining you a few more inches of precious headroom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I couldn't say if plywood would contort (I refuse to use the 't' word) enough to get at least a hint of a saddle shape. It would be nice if someone who had worked it all out, ie, cutting slits or narrow darts that fan out, are then filled, fared, and so on. Or strip plank it, which would work, but also be a lot more work. But it's such a beautiful boat to just bend plywood sheet over the top. That last drawing looks better, but...it still looks like....
    Yes... it does seem like a cambered top is the right direction one way or another. And JimD - yes, I'm going to stick with it until I have something that does justice to Petrel.

    Thanks everyone. Another iteration coming soon.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    #1487 looks better already. Cold mould the top and give it some “saddle”

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewpatrol View Post
    #1487 looks better already. Cold mould the top and give it some “saddle”
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    It's looking better as it evolves. I agree that it needs more sweep, though, as well as camber.

    For whatever it's worth, Bucephalus's original deck was two layers of 1/4" plywood (with canvas over it), and she had both considerable sheer and camber. So it *can* be done. The approach of using multiple thin layers, glued together, is the way to go.

    In her new deck, I used four layers of 1/8" veneer. No problem at all getting "saddle" into that deck.

    Alex

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    A couple of mates have cold molded some pretty nice complex curves out of plywood, I think they used wide strips of about a foot or so to get the ply to bend easily.

    It takes something like at least 18mm of ply to make something that needs minimal framing and deckbeams and feels stiff enough to walk on.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Ok, closing in on it I think... yes? No? More sweep to the pilothouse top along with a bit of camber aft to restore the headroom. A bunch of other changes as well to ensure good sightlines through the windows and so on.




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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Here's a larger version, and one showing the deck levels and major bulkheads as well:



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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Now you're getting somewhere! That looks much better.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Here's a larger version, and one showing the deck levels and major bulkheads as well
    I like the lines, it hangs together now. But you need to give yourself more headroom in the pilot house.
    If that silhouette is the same height as you, you'll be looking at the window sills and crouch down all the time to get a good look around. By my gut feeling, your eye height should be at two thirds of the clear opening at the most. Right now it's at window sill height.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    That's looking good.

    Maybe just me being dumb, but if you're worried about headroom, could you drop the deck down one step in the aft section, once you're abaft the engine room? If you were going with the "traditional" solution of an aft cabin you'd be dropping the sole a lot more than a step.

    Alex

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    If I remember this right, your inside steering-position is just behind the front windows. Is there a chance to sit there instead of standing?

    EDIT: Chris, I've got the idea you are doing these drawings by computer. Would it be very difficult for you to make one drawing where the shape of the roof is an exact copy of the shape of the sheerline, and one where it even goes a bit higher up at the front?
    Concerning the shape of your roof and how to deck it, don't worry too much about it at this stage. You will be very surprised to find out what one can do laminating thin plywood, especially in strips, together.
    Last edited by Dody; 10-17-2017 at 09:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Ok, good points on the sightlines. It wasn't *quite* as bad as it looked, as eye level for my silhouette figure was below the top of the forward windows, but there were some other issues that I found when I started looking at it more closely. Most importantly that anyone standing at the galley counter aft would not be able to see out! So I've dropped the sole aft and added a step to clear the engine and I've also dropped the sole over the engine just a bit (I had added a bit more than was really needed for sound proofing). This version also shows the sightline for a person standing at the helm.



    Dody - yes, I plan on having helm seating but I prefer standing so I definitely need to make sure that will work as well.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ok, good points on the sightlines. It wasn't *quite* as bad as it looked, as eye level for my silhouette figure was below the top of the forward windows, but there were some other issues that I found when I started looking at it more closely. Most importantly that anyone standing at the galley counter aft would not be able to see out! So I've dropped the sole aft and added a step to clear the engine and I've also dropped the sole over the engine just a bit (I had added a bit more than was really needed for sound proofing). This version also shows the sightline for a person standing at the helm.



    Dody - yes, I plan on having helm seating but I prefer standing so I definitely need to make sure that will work as well.
    That looks like a trip hazard, is there not enough space over the engine to drop it all the way through?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That looks like a trip hazard, is there not enough space over the engine to drop it all the way through?
    Unfortunately no. The current sole is directly on top of the engine - no clearance at all. I'm raising it about 1-1/2" over the engine to make room for soundproofing as it is. But I see your point about the trip hazard though. A couple of thoughts:

    1. The salon will be divided into a forward section with helm seating P+S over the engine step, and an aft section with galley and dinette where the sole is dropped. So the area of the step is functionally separate from the aft section. Somehow that makes is less of a concern for me although I don't know why it would be in practice - if it's a hazard it's a hazard.

    2. The step is about 4" high. Would it be better if if were taller? I could drop the sole aft a bit more to increase the height of the step and make it more prominent.
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    Neoga has a step up in the cabin - to clear the engine in fact...

    It works OK because there is visual separation created by bulkheads as well as the copper pipes (which are for engine ventilation). They are behind the step - but it still seems to work fine.

    If you can provide similar visuals, I think it might be OK:



    The pipes are about 18" aft of the step - providing a nice handhold.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  35. #1505
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    Default Re: Restoration of BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"

    2. The step is about 4" high. Would it be better if if were taller? I could drop the sole aft a bit more to increase the height of the step and make it more prominent.
    Sounds better to me. A proper sized step is something we're all intuitively used to dealing with which ought to reduce tripping. Although in our house we have a half step of about 3" from our sun room to the kitchen which we cross constantly, dozens of times a day and we never trip on it. We know it's there and automatically make the adjustment in our stride as though it's not there at all. A tastefully contrasting stair nose molding of some sort might be worth considering, ie

    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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