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Thread: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Both bilge keels off! Unfortunately difficult to get a good picture:



    The 'runner' i.e. the backing pad the length of the original bilge keel is now off both sides to expose the plugging of the original timber bilge keels (removed prior to the 1980's) and holes for bolts now to be plugged:





    I am a bit unhappy by the positioning of two of the bolts - they clip the seam as the one above can show - and one clips a rib! The line below the hole is (I think) the lower edge of the original timber bilge keel.

    The debate in the yard is whether to replace the 'runner' (nice new iroko ready). Opinions differ. Some say 'Just plug the holes, that will look nice and fair', others say 'there is an eclectic collection of holes plugged, best give it the insurance of a nicely shaped and feathered runner'. The vote is 50/50 at present. She sure looks nicer without:


  2. #37
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    She looks exactly the same once she is in the water. I would vote for the plugs.

    It looks like there is enough undercut to hold a D shaped plug at the edge the plank. You could tap in a round plug without damaging the adjacent plank and cut the edge flush with the plank along the seam for caulking. I would cut the plug across the grain and line up the grain with the plank. The caulking will help hold the plug in place. If you want to enlarge the hole to get more undercut and a cleaner surface to glue the plug, insert a temporary plug and drill a slightly larger hole that just kisses the plank above.

    If the clipped rib wasn't broken by the extra load resulting from the bilge keels, the clip must not be much of a problem.

    Not a recommendation so much as a passing thought: If you are trying to locate inside ballast in the area, you might consider a lead runner in place of the iroko. To keep the cg close to that of the bilge keels, two slabs of lead 5"x48"x2" would weigh 380lb. It might be better to bolt lead cheeks to the keel.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Thanks Dave.

    I think the angle of the 'hole' favours me versus the edge of the seam: i.e. the angle takes the hole away from the back of the seam - which obviously has a slight angle as well. I will need to investigate the 'hole'. The bolts go through 25mm of plank, 30mm of spacer and 75mm of stringer. The stud threads indicate a fair amount of putty has been 'up the hole'. I want to get clear of the crud to nice clean wood but not excessively. Where the holes are easier to enlarge, where that clipped seam (in fact there is another on the other side, and - horrors, oh horrors one of the new stud holes through the doweling:



    I am afraid I am not happy with the work that was done in 1988! Wasn't in my ownership but by coincidence I have met that man twice. Note the positioning of the new bilge keel hole! Ugh. And there is this damage on the plank surface. This plank has wild grain on the surface; that can happen with iroko and indeed it was very difficult to burn back without the grain catching. Note the line just below the upper hole is the line of the original timber bilge keels - wonder why the original builder marked the position rather than just with a pencil line. Was the oriignal bilge keels not fitted on launch but marked in case the first owner decided to add them? Note the upper hole was 'oval'ed' when original drilled. Some were worse.

    I note your comment about the clipped rib. I agree. The clipped rib has the advantage of the stringer there to add strength. I am just so annoyed at the poor workmanship over the positioning of the bilge keel holes. There is absolutely no reason to chose the right positions before the bilge keel flanges were pierced.

    I favour no replacement 'runner' over the location where all the plugging is taking place. But I need to dress the holes, seams and other damage and then taking stock. Ballast? I favour for internal lead ballast. I think there is sufficient room and by coincidence it appears to fit a standard commercial lead ingot size. I have estiamted that the weight of the original iroko bilge keels was in the order of 100 to 130 lbs and the estimate of the steel bilge keels is about 370 lbs (exact weighing next week). I am slightly tempted to sail next spring without new ballast on the basis that standard ingots should be quickly obtained.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter



    I agree, cross grain bungs glued in, with a graving piece to repair that chewed patch and cover the end grain of the older bung.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Yes, Nick, agree. I wonder how that darkened area occured where the grain tore. Something has happened but it's rock hard. I would really like to look underneath the stringers - but that will never happen.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    For those of us who don't know what a graving piece is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZpp9ym_6yQ
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Useful bit of video. I've always used chisel not router before. My router is a brute, heavy unsophisticated chunk of ugh. Best I buy a newer one.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Update

    Having prepared to start 'plugging', I decided to clear the internal furniture. A good idea! Behind the saloon berth back, Problems. Three ribs have fractured two planks higher up from the stringers (through which the bilge keels were fastened). One rib is fractured in three places - two planks up, then in line with the top of the stringer and then, in line with the bottom of the stringer. The evidence of poor design for these retro (1988) fit is clear. The leverage of the bilge keel is too strong for the construction. If the surveyor had seen the evidence I have now exposed, he would have instructed that the bilge keels - if remaining - would need to be redesigned. So the decision is absolute - they are off.

    Everything can be sorted. The evidence shows that the seams have never leaked where ribs are fractured but there has been moisture. Internal painting has suffered but that won't be a problem. I think there has been no significant moisture in the last 3 or 4 years oddly. The area where the bilge keel bolt clipped the rib has had the worst moisture and at some stage has leaked.

    But again the news is good. All the planking is rock hard, no evidence of movement or significant seam repairs. Where the stopping had been pulled out shows the cotton hard, clean and in good condition. I will now clear all the internal paint removed, re-primed and prepped. Seven new ribs on the starboard side and then plugging up all the old bilge keel bolt holes - they need an individual solution for each hole!

    I am quite happy and now know that that area will be reinstated back to original condition. Port side I need to lift out the fuel tank (I had had to remove the water tank on the starboard side) and remove the locker structure to investigate. Port side is obviously not so bad but now at this stage this is the time to check forensically,

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    Update

    Having prepared to start 'plugging', I decided to clear the internal furniture. A good idea! Behind the saloon berth back, Problems. Three ribs have fractured two planks higher up from the stringers (through which the bilge keels were fastened). One rib is fractured in three places - two planks up, then in line with the top of the stringer and then, in line with the bottom of the stringer. The evidence of poor design for these retro (1988) fit is clear. The leverage of the bilge keel is too strong for the construction. If the surveyor had seen the evidence I have now exposed, he would have instructed that the bilge keels - if remaining - would need to be redesigned. So the decision is absolute - they are off.

    Everything can be sorted. The evidence shows that the seams have never leaked where ribs are fractured but there has been moisture. Internal painting has suffered but that won't be a problem. I think there has been no significant moisture in the last 3 or 4 years oddly. The area where the bilge keel bolt clipped the rib has had the worst moisture and at some stage has leaked.

    But again the news is good. All the planking is rock hard, no evidence of movement or significant seam repairs. Where the stopping had been pulled out shows the cotton hard, clean and in good condition. I will now clear all the internal paint removed, re-primed and prepped. Seven new ribs on the starboard side and then plugging up all the old bilge keel bolt holes - they need an individual solution for each hole!

    I am quite happy and now know that that area will be reinstated back to original condition. Port side I need to lift out the fuel tank (I had had to remove the water tank on the starboard side) and remove the locker structure to investigate. Port side is obviously not so bad but now at this stage this is the time to check forensically,
    Good time to clean and maintain those tanks.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I think your girl friend will be very happy to have those things off her feet.
    I expect she will sail faster and point higher without them.
    Over the years I have been repeatedly impressed by the effect of drag on leeway, so I think she is going to feel like a new woman.
    The only concern I will voice is that the keels and runners have been acting like a stringer, and may have been helping structurally. The broken ribs kind of tell me that you would like to give her as much help in the bilge as you can, even with the bilge keels removed. So I think you should consider either putting a stringer inside the ribs where the runners used to be. Assuming it's easy and just behind a bunk, or you should put the runners back on with nice faired edges etc. Would love to shed the drag, but there is something nice about knowing that you have a hard place on the bilge if you operate in a place where the water disappears on a regular basis.

    SHC

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Nick - Thanks for another couple of tasks! (Actually the tankage is top notch and recently [a couple of years ago] cleaned and checked)

    SHC - The stringers internally will remain. They comprise of three 1" x 5" planks running from bow to transom (tapered slightly at the ends). So there is significant support as the BKs will not be there. If the reinstatment plan works as I hope I will satisfied internally. The 'runner' (that's the term I used for the length of wood externally between the bilge keel flanges and the planks) I have removed as you will have seen but I have new iroko ready. Opinions vary; most are saying I won't need to put the new 'runners' but one (the youngest) is shaking his head and saying we should. I will start in the New Year to stop stripping and begin back building her. When everything is finished I can take stock whether it is sensible to leave the new runners off (because she will look just right) or she is 53 years old, she had bad treatment and deserves an insurance policy and a little extra.

    All of you have a good Christmas and a Happy New Year

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Progress to date.

    First I had not acknowledged Jay's comment regarding a ketch rig. Very interesting. I shall leave with the sloop rig for the season and see how she sails. Then ponder at the end of the season.

    So to progress. Well actually further issues. Whilst I had looked from the outside, after the Christmas festivities I have prepared internally for plugging the bilge keel bolt holes. And found I needed more preparation.

    As I looked closer it became clear on the starboard side there are issues to attend. I cleared the saloon furniture on the starboard side and found significant old damage.

    1. Of the six original bilge keel stud positions, four are dowelled through plank - spacer - triple stringer. But one is loose. The remaining two are only dowelled through plank - spacer; not the triple stringer. Mystery? On the outside there is a need for some fettling on three of the original dowelling;
    2. Six of the ribs have damage: Now clear of the furniture I can see two frames are each broken in three places! The neighbouring rib of those two is fractured twice. These three ribs are broken 'in-line' with the upper edge of the stringer. All three are also broken a couple of planks higher up. The two with three breaks have their third break below the stringer. I conclude this has been caused by the outward flexing of the bilge keel and that the design of bilge keel fixing is unsatisfactory. That won't matter now they are removed but if I want to put the bilge keels back, I will need to consider additional support of the fabric of the boat.

    The seams and planking are in good condition. I conclude the seams have leaked in the past but in recent years have just been 'moist'. I have burnt off the paint internally and she has already benefitted from getting the air at the timber. It is all solid and will be fine. Some copper fasteners where breaks are adjacent have also suffered from salt water. But I will sister all the ribs of course.



    The other three ribs damaged are forward of the bilge keel position. Of course the original bilge keels (prior to 1985) were longer and that extended where the breaks on these three ribs are positioned. Bizarrely the breaks are higher up, well clear of the stringer so I wonder if at some stage in the past she has had heavy contact. The breaks are old and there is no evidence of leaking or seeping of the seams. Of course they will also be sistered.

    3. One of the ribs (in between the forward broken three and the further aft broken three) is unbroken BUT one of the bilge keel bolt holes pierced half of the rib! How on earth did anyone think of doing that! (Now I see on the port side, two ribs have been drilled for bilge keel bolts!). Again it can be solved.

    4. When the timber 'runner' between the bilge keel and the planking was screwed by 8 screws. 7 were an inch and a half, the eighth was two and a half and so pierced the planking. There is now a neat hole! Again, how on earth? Again it can be solved!

    Just bought some lovely green oak for steaming the ribs. The copper nails and rove are on order (delayed by the London Boat Show!). The oak needs planing but that will be next week (always assuming that today's threat of tidal flooding won't occur - there is a tidal surge down the North Sea coinciding with Spring tides right now).

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post

    1. Of the six original bilge keel stud positions, four are dowelled through plank - spacer - triple stringer. But one is loose. The remaining two are only dowelled through plank - spacer; not the triple stringer. Mystery? On the outside there is a need for some fettling on three of the original dowelling;
    Not an issue. Providing the plug in the plank is tight it does not matter how far through they come.
    I would glue in a shallow dutchman to cover the end grain of the bungs. That should fix it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    One is loose but I suspected I may be able to remove and do it properly. Hadn't thought about a shallow dutchman - good idea. But I also have new timber (iroko) ready to replace the 'runners' if once all 'fettled' I consider all the 'fettle' is worth the insurance of a runner - if you follow. I don't want it; it would spoil the lines but that line of two planks have a lot of history!

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    One is loose but I suspected I may be able to remove and do it properly. Hadn't thought about a shallow dutchman - good idea. But I also have new timber (iroko) ready to replace the 'runners' if once all 'fettled' I consider all the 'fettle' is worth the insurance of a runner - if you follow. I don't want it; it would spoil the lines but that line of two planks have a lot of history!
    I would not bother, unless she is likely to lay on her side when drying out. In which case those "runners" might not be in the correct place to work as a sand clog.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Never had that expression. Agree she probably wouldn't be stategically positioned for that.

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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I wonder if the ribs might have been broken by the boat grounding on one of the bilge keels before taking ground on the main keel. Thinking about it, it is inevitable that the whole weight of the vessel could land on any one of the three keels, probably multiple times depending on the sea state as the tide goes out. I imagine the boat dancing and rolling around on the mooring as the tide falls and can't see how one or the other bilge keels font catch the full weight of the boat multiple times as she takes bottom. The internal structure looks pretty beefy until you compare it to the central keel.
    SHC

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    The steel bilge keels fitted in 1988 were about 3" off the 'bottom'. So if she balanced on the centre keel and then, once the water had gone or largely gone, she could have dropped one side or the other. Not good. How deep the original timber bilge keels were we do not know. But clearly the forward breaks were forward of the steel bilge keels so the theory of grounding would suggest that damage was from the timber b ilge keels. Clearly all the fractures are old. More evidence for permanet removal of the bilge keels.

    I have always been wary sailing in the Thames Estuary - which is pretty the only place I sail! We have many sand banks, mostly rock hard sank and enough to have very steep edges. Can you imagine sailing at 6kts with 7.5 tons displacement and grounding first with the leading edge of one of the bilge keels! Ugh! The 1960's Pirate Radio Ship the Mi Amigo goes to mind. Broke its anchorage in a gale, grounded on the Long Sand - rock hard sand, holed and sank and the Mi Amigo slipped off the Long Sand into the Black Deep where she still lies. Not that the Mi Amigo had bilge keels of course but it illustrates the risk in the area.

    You have raised a good point, thanks. As regards the structure, I am surprised she had no sawn frames to support the bilge keels. All the sawn frames are further forward and further aft.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Ready to start the steaming of the ribs. Quick question of the forum please: Beveling the edges of each stave to ease the stress of the timber; just the two internal curved edges or all four please?

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    Ready to start the steaming of the ribs. Quick question of the forum please: Beveling the edges of each stave to ease the stress of the timber; just the two internal curved edges or all four please?
    I am not sure that it is about stress, wood does not work like that, but about protecting knees and knuckles. So I think that only the inside is necessary. However to save time, do all 4 then you won't have to worry about orienting the rib.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I had been told once by someone and I used the practice but couldn't remember whether it was all 4 edges - or if it really made a difference. Might as well do all 4 edges. BUT, I need to 'scallop' the end of the bottom of the rib as we have to bend (and feed) the rib downwards between the planks and the stringer. The outside bottom edge of the rib will encounter slight lips as they go down seam by seam. And, of course, the seam which is behind the stringer(!) has a very slight proud lip which will catch against the end of the rib. I shall, of course, endeavour to get rid of the lip but this is 50 year old iroko planking that is rock hard and I can only fiddle with glasspaper manually behind to get rid of the 'lip'. Oh joys! The scallop will slide down easier anyway. Just thinking I might 'lubricate' the planks where we will feed down the ribs. We have done it before several years ago and because the deck is in place we need to increase the radius to start the feeding down. But it is good news that the oak is as green as.. as ... well green. As we planed up the staves today moisture (a slight under description) came to the surface. And it was too wet to take a pencil easily. Monday is steam day.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Ribs now finished. Six sisters now in place and she feels nice and tight. Only one seam showing movement during the roving but that was one seam that had been shown evidence of moisture. Everywhere else it all likes nice and tight. The ribs coldn't been spaced evenly because there are a couple of spacing blocks behind the stringer where the original bilge keel bolt dowelling are glued. The 'bite' out of the stringer were made when that same 'shipwright' fitted a new water tank. Nice stainless water tank but it could have been shaped behind the stringer without the 'bite'. The stringer will be quite strong enough. It comprises three 1" planks in way of the bilge keel area. I am now convinced the retro fitting of the bilge keels were poorly fastened - very poorly fastened and some midship support should have been added. I am wondering if the original bilge keels - which were much much longer (the empty bolt holes in the centre are the furthest forward of the retro BKs but the dowelling to the left is the second forward original BK bolthole. I wonder if they were not originally 'full' bilge keels but runners to take the ground on the mooring - hence no midship support originally.

    Addressing the vacant holes and other issues such as the clipped but not broken rib (where the orange wires dropping vertically). Progress is been made.


  23. #58
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    ^ If there were "runners" to take the ground (we call them sand clogs on the Lancashire coast) they would probably be a double thick plank faired in ford and aft.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I have one of the dowels in the original bilge keel bolt holes that moves very slightly. So I thought today to see if it would move to see it can be better fitted. If I remove it I will have a look at the angle of the hole and try to estimate how long the keel might have been long. The angle might suggest it's a sand clog rather than a BK.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Umm. Seem to have lost the last thread. So again bringing the work up to date.

    First, I am now convinced that Tiller Girl never had original bilge keels, rather she had bilge runners (or Nick's Sand Clogs). The evidence I think is that the original fitment was 2m long and only had 6 bolts each side. There was also no midship support. As I have said, TG was built by Seacraft Ltd of Leigh-on-Sea. The comissioning owner lived next door at Thorpe Bay where the moorings dried over an expanse of flat sand. Bilge runners would have been a good idea to protect the bilge area of the planking. I note also the design of the Finesse, a series of small wooden clinker yachts designed and built by Alan Platt at Leigh-on-Sea. Alan was an apprentice at Seacraft. Finesse yachts had either bilge keels or bilge runners. Here is an example of bilge runners:



    I regret that I am now certain that the 'retro' bilge keels fitted in 1988 were poorly fitted and if they stayed, some additonal support was now essential. I have sistered six ribs starboard side (and three earlier about 10 years ago starboard and one port about 5 years ago.) About the poor fitting:



    Note the new dowel where the bolt hole clipped the plank seam. That hole also clips the original rib. The score mark is a scribe line showing the positon of the original bilge runner which was about 4" thick, made of iroko so would not have been bilge keels.



    The two larger dowels are the original bilge runner blt holes. The pale, slightly smaller dowels are the retro BK holes now dowelled. What is the rogue other dowel? Done I think decided not to continue through the hole beyond the plank as the hole cuts through the plank seam!



    Here there is evidence the retro BK bolt hole pierced the original dowelling!

    Let's get to some progess. At the end of yesterday we offered up the starboard runner to see how easily the plank would bend round the hull. Easily as it happens. Ok, the ends are not yet wedged up tight - we need to cut some bespoke wedges - but it works.



    I regret the need for the 'runner' but there are 15 dowels through each plank. Missing the dowels, rib fastenings and plank seam will need some detective work! I wishes the planking was unblemished but there it is. I takes Simon's advice and think it best to follow.



    Perhaps it doesn't look too bad.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I would be tempted to make it narrower so that it doubled only one plank and did not cover a seam. Then it could be glued and screwed on rather than bolted.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    I regret the need for the 'runner' but there are 15 dowels through each plank. Missing the dowels, rib fastenings and plank seam will need some detective work! I wishes the planking was unblemished but there it is. I takes Simon's advice and think it best to follow.
    This is a way to accurately locate holes in a plank to line up with existing holes in frames: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7DXb8LSNd0
    When you decide where to locate the screws, you can use this method to mark the runner.
    In your case, the runner will be proud of the surface, so you will need to tack a reference plank above the runner and the same thickness as the runner, then install the screws where you want them for marking the thickness of the runner above the surface. In the video the heads of the screws were where the outside surface of the plank would be. You need to mark where the outside surface of the runner will be, so everything moves out from the position used in the video. The reference plank would be convenient if it was located snug up against the runner.

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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    He is an interesting and helpful guy. But fortunately I need to miss the rib fastenings so it is easier to pick the spots. Needs care though.

    Nick: I need to protect above and below the seam unfortunately, indeed protecting the seam as well where clipped and previously dowelled through. I shall be using screws only, no bolts. And I would prefer a polysulphide mastic rather than adhesive because in the future I might take it off and replace 'the' plank each side.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post

    Nick: I need to protect above and below the seam unfortunately, indeed protecting the seam as well where clipped and previously dowelled through.
    You need to think about that. If the runner is thick enough to protect the plank above and below from stones and shells on the beach, it will be thick enough to protect the seam. As I said earlier, bilge sand cloggs here are a length of thicker plank hung on the bilge, not something planted on the out side, so they are only one plank wide.
    You can see the aft end of one here


    here is another
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    I need to be clearer. I have no intention to dry out on a mooring. I think originally that was the plan and then someone made the chnage into bilge keels. I don't want the bilge keels and I am unhappy with their fitment. I wanted nothing outside any more - just the lines of the hull unblemished. But the 'history' of that plank each side raises the issue of whether it is ok plugged and dowelled. Simon expressed the opinion that the insurance of the additional plank was better than none. To replace the plank raises too many issues - I would have to completely dismantle much of her - so the additional plank is the choice, much though I do not prefer.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    I need to be clearer. I have no intention to dry out on a mooring. I think originally that was the plan and then someone made the chnage into bilge keels. I don't want the bilge keels and I am unhappy with their fitment. I wanted nothing outside any more - just the lines of the hull unblemished. But the 'history' of that plank each side raises the issue of whether it is ok plugged and dowelled. Simon expressed the opinion that the insurance of the additional plank was better than none. To replace the plank raises too many issues - I would have to completely dismantle much of her - so the additional plank is the choice, much though I do not prefer.
    Then might I suggest a dutchman fitted in way of the dowels and glued in place. The dowel through the seam will be made bomb proof by splitting (or sawing a kerf) and caulking it, which was a common method of wedging trunnels.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  32. #67
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Quote Originally Posted by tillergirl View Post
    He is an interesting and helpful guy. But fortunately I need to miss the rib fastenings so it is easier to pick the spots. Needs care though.
    It is just a way to locate holes accurately. You put the screws where you want them, then mark the plank for drilling. He needed to hit the spots you want to miss.

    Edit: I see that I have failed to communicate. "Missing the dowels, rib fastenings and plank seam will need some detective work!" I thought that you knew where they were, wanted to avoid hitting them and were concerned that you would run into them when fastening the cover plank because you wouldn't be able to see where they were behind the plank. It's your wooden tingle.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 03-07-2017 at 11:48 PM.
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  33. #68
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    May 2013
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Dave - I appreciate he wanted to hit the spots. When I need that I shall use that now. I note the American preference to screw the ribs. In the UK it's usually copper nails and roves. I guess we could drill from the inside!

    Nick - I note your suggestion. I am very worried with the idea of 15 dutchmen a side in the space of 2 metres - and frankly I haven't got the time to do that this season. I am in a consortium for movement of the boat and launch and I have a schedule for an early May chart survey which is essential. How deep would you recommend the dutchmen for a one inch plank? Given the position of so many dowels close to the ribs, I can only cut down at most a quarter of an inch, probably 3/16ths more accurate.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    ^ 3/16ths should do it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #70
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    May 2013
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    Default Re: Thinking of removing the bilge keels this winter

    Well, I'll look at it in the morning but.......

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