Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Ct.
    Posts
    956

    Default Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quite interesting article, 500 gallons per hour, those 3 big Packard we're really thirsty. The 3000 tank empty in 6 hours, wow.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    It's in the current issue of WoodenBoat Magazine. If you added on-line to your subscription you can find it readily. If you don't subscribe, time to do it.

    G'luck

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Belton, Texas USA
    Posts
    737

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Current issue of our favorite mag is one of the best and I've seen them all......happy to see some power for a change......and hope to see a lot more of it.
    The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation......Thoreau

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,597

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Yes, but thats at combat speed, patrol speed often just used one engine at much reduced throttle, that gave them 8 or 9 knots on 20 gals an hour or so. Several days worth.
    Some very similar motor patrol boats built in New Zealand convoyed up to Fiji and across to the Solomons during the war, carried two of their props on the afterdeck and just ran on one engine.
    Common practice when moving a Pt or similar over long distances.

    John


    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Quite interesting article, 500 gallons per hour, those 3 big Packard we're really thirsty. The 3000 tank empty in 6 hours, wow.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Besides fuel conservation, running slowly on one engine made for less wake. The wake at full bore all three engines was visible for miles and miles from the air.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in Oz
    Posts
    51,995

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Besides fuel conservation, running slowly on one engine made for less wake. The wake at full bore all three engines was visible for miles and miles from the air.
    Surely not?

    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Ian the Greater is right to suspect a bit of hyperbole on my part, but the wake from all three engines running, especially at night with the bioluminescence, was an issue. Aquajets from high speed catamaran ferries leave a longer wake. I’ve used them as the trail through fog into Nantucket up to a quarter hour after hearing the ferry pass, which makes that visible trail about five miles long.

    “Speed had a disadvantage. The boats did have a rather large wake. As the book Motor Torpedo Boats, Tactical Orders and Doctrine notes:
    1202. The wakes of motor torpedo boats at high speeds are visible considerable distances, both from the air and surface. The wake of center engine is less visible than that of wing engines. These factors should always be considered when planning operations unless satisfactory wake camouflaging apparatus is installed.”
    https://blog.usni.org/2009/09/22/the...ttoral-warfare

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    12,853

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Noise too eh?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    21,344

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Ian the Greater is right to suspect a bit of hyperbole on my part, but the wake from all three engines running, especially at night with the bioluminescence, was an issue. Aquajets from high speed catamaran ferries leave a longer wake. I’ve used them as the trail through fog into Nantucket up to a quarter hour after hearing the ferry pass, which makes that visible trail about five miles long.

    “Speed had a disadvantage. The boats did have a rather large wake. As the book Motor Torpedo Boats, Tactical Orders and Doctrine notes:
    1202. The wakes of motor torpedo boats at high speeds are visible considerable distances, both from the air and surface. The wake of center engine is less visible than that of wing engines. These factors should always be considered when planning operations unless satisfactory wake camouflaging apparatus is installed.”
    https://blog.usni.org/2009/09/22/the...ttoral-warfare
    What kind of device camouflages a wake?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    As I understand it from reading PT vets' accounts, the wing props caused the most visible turbulence and aeration of the water. These boats could run at almost twnty knots on the central engine alone and often moved along at ten or so which left an even more subtle and transitory wake. All three engines and maximum speed were most consistently used during actual attack.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Just an aside, one interesting and odd difference: The British MTB and German E Boats used in the North Atlantic were displacement hulls of remarkable efficiency and, for their size, considerable range. The US PT boats, operating mostly in the South Pacific, were planing hulls and had far less range. Meanwhile, it seems that British capital ships had considerable less range than US capital ships. It makes sense given history and missions before the war, but does seem odd.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    1,106

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Aquajets from high speed catamaran ferries leave a longer wake. I’ve used them as the trail through fog into Nantucket up to a quarter hour after hearing the ferry pass, which makes that visible trail about five miles long.
    That's a handy trick, but accounting for the drift of that wake, from any current, must be an entertaining bit of navigation in its own right, yes?

    Alex

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Auckland NZ
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Ian the British MTB/MGB were planing hulls similar to the PT boats (the first Elco boats were British design, later modified by Elco). The German S boats (the Brits called them E boats for some reason although every one had a large S and a number on the sides) were displacement hulls with max speeds similar to the Allied planing boats, although they had double the power and diesel engines. Also they were much more seaworthy and could maintain much higher speeds in adverse conditions.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,720

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Thank you Graeme. Further googling 'british wwii mtb' helped me see how right you are here.

    Around here and around Boston Harbor, where I have used fastferry wakes, the current is not such a problem because - just as it happens - places of strong currents have most ferry routes with or against the current and where the boats operate at speed across the currents they are in more open waters with currents down no higher than three knots.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Ottawa, ON Canada
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Forrest View Post
    Ian the British MTB/MGB were planing hulls similar to the PT boats (the first Elco boats were British design, later modified by Elco). The German S boats (the Brits called them E boats for some reason although every one had a large S and a number on the sides) were displacement hulls with max speeds similar to the Allied planing boats, although they had double the power and diesel engines. Also they were much more seaworthy and could maintain much higher speeds in adverse conditions.
    E-boat was a British designation for enemy. They had 3 diesels producing 3980 hp, with a speed of 43 knots. The British Power Boat MTB's were 71' boats which were the basis for the Elco boats. They ran three Packard 12 cyl but for silent running had a single flat head ford v8. Vosper also built an MTB. Fairmile D or dog boats were larger vessels but not as fast 115' long running four 12 cyl packards developing a total of 5000 hp and a top speed of 29knots.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    250

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    When I was a kid, maybe 1970-73, our family used to go deep sea fishing out of Little Pee Dee river, SC. I remember one larger head boat, named the Hurricane, as I recall. Typical displacement deep see fishing boat. But one year Dad bought us tickets aboard what I recall him telling me was a WWII PT boat that had been converted to fishing. I just remember holding onto the railing tight as that boat got up on plane with the deep roar of the engines. Does anyone know of this boat?

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    N.E. Connecticut.
    Posts
    5,016

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    I know a good number of Air Sea Rescue craft were converted into party fishing boats. I

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    3,893

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    In the late 1940's I was aboard a PT conversion air rescue boat out of Myrtle Beach Army Air Base while on Civil Air Patrol Cadet training. Had no reference at the time but it was darn fast and pretty rough ride. Later wandered through a PT graveyard in Pearl Harbor where many PT boats went to die. Saw one PT in Nassau that had been fitted with a single diesel but know nothing else about it. Our PT boats were largely ineffective in battle. In any water other than flat, Japanese destroyers could outrun them. Had a habit of breaking internal frames at speed in waves due to a too flat bottom and the high weight of armament.
    Tom L

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    2,990

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    The WWI MTB's were really interesting: stepped hulls which allowed high speeds with heavy power to weight ratio engines. Stepped hulls require great weight discipline and careful fore and aft weight distribution which is why once engines got big enough they were put on the shelf except for flying boats and raceboats. There is a Faulkner short story about these MTB's called Turnabout, and I think Fox has some stuff in his powerboat book. Poking around on the internet I find these were built by Thornycroft and called CMB's. What is impressive is the speeds and sizes obtained with little power.
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 10-21-2016 at 09:19 AM.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Benfleet Essex UK
    Posts
    332

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    There is a surviving WW1 CMB awaiting restoration at Chatham dockyard, i believe she is a 55 ft version. Rolled deck edge, single step with twin stern gear that is a work of art in bronze. There is a smaller 40 ft CMB at Duxford, http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30004029 ,

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Baltimore Maryland
    Posts
    10,630

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Ratus ratus bilgeous snipeous!

    You must be the change you wish to see in the world."
    Mahatma Gandhi

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    2,582

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by keith66 View Post
    There is a surviving WW1 CMB awaiting restoration at Chatham dockyard, i believe she is a 55 ft version. Rolled deck edge, single step with twin stern gear that is a work of art in bronze. There is a smaller 40 ft CMB at Duxford, http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30004029 ,
    How the heck did they launch and aim the torpedo? It looks like it sat on the afterdeck right behind the cockpit, facing forward, and probably slid off over the stern.
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205327216

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Auckland NZ
    Posts
    259

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Pete I understand the CMBs did indeed slide the torpedos over the stern then quickly turned aside as the torpedo ran at similar speed to the boat. Apparently the installation was much lighter than contemporary torpedo tubes, weight being critical to the performance of such boats.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    2,582

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeme Forrest View Post
    Pete I understand the CMBs did indeed slide the torpedos over the stern then quickly turned aside as the torpedo ran at similar speed to the boat. Apparently the installation was much lighter than contemporary torpedo tubes, weight being critical to the performance of such boats.
    OMG, what could possibly go wrong! I was thinking perhaps they stopped, pulled it alongside, and aimed it before pushing the Go button. That didnt seem like a very smart wartime strategy, but I didnt consider pushing the torp over the stern while under way, and trying to outrun it.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    2,990

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    OMG, what could possibly go wrong! I was thinking perhaps they stopped, pulled it alongside, and aimed it before pushing the Go button. That didnt seem like a very smart wartime strategy, but I didnt consider pushing the torp over the stern while under way, and trying to outrun it.

    Pete
    You didn't outrun the torp, you put her hard over. Find the William Faulkner story Turnabout.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    2,582

    Default Re: Good article on the gas gusseling PT boats.

    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •