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Thread: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Jim. I've just been catching up on your thread. Your boat is looking pretty wonderful too. I admire your tenacity, not to mention your workmanship.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Last edited by IanMilne; 04-11-2017 at 06:28 PM.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Hi Ewan. Thanks for getting in touch, and the compliment. Yes, I stumbled on your blog a while ago. I envy you your Finnish Vendia Plank. Fibreglassing mine slowed me down a bit, but it wasn't too bad, and I'm happy enough with it now. The planking was the fun part, really, (but it's all fun, isn't it?). Yours is looking good.
    I will be following your progress, with interest!
    Regards,
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  3. #213
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Hi Ian

    The Vendia is extremely tough stuff and very flexible. My worry is that it's basically pine and I'm giving it a good coating of epoxy, third one today and maybe another one or two. The problem is the cold weather here and working in an open shed, although at least it's healthy. I'm hoping to get afloat by the time I'm seventy next Burns Night.

    Ewan
    Ewan G Kennedy

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Well, I have got quite good at climbing in and out of the boat, and at clambering around underneath it too.
    I spent the next few days cleaning up the inside,


    and making another floor for keel-bolt 1 and short blocks for bolts 3 and 5. (Ignore the blue tape.)


    I found I did have to trim some of the keel-bolt holes a bit more, after all. Here's how I could haul her up and drag her over a bit to work on them. You can see a red clamp on the forefoot with a rope over to a leg of my bench.


    When she finally fitted, I bogged 'er up...


    and put 'er down. Whoop-de-do! Then I climbed in and walked around a bit to push her down onto the sealant, and left it to cure overnight. That was yesterday. I took this photo this morning.


    Today I poured unthickened epoxy into the oversized holes around the bolts, glued the new floor and blocks on and filled the holes in them as well, put the big washers on and did up the nuts to push everything down. Then I took the nuts off again. Tomorrow I will put some more epoxy on the threads, tighten the nuts up properly, and fill the recesses with resin, left unthickened so you can still see what sort of bolts they are. They have been a lot more work than I expected. It would be better to stick to the plans.


    Now, about that black sealant. I returned my Sika 291 to the big DIY store, and started again. I finally discovered, and bought three cartridges of, Bostik/Simson Construction Adhesive ssfk Marine Special Range, with 250ml of its primer, that was a lot more "cost-effective" as they say. You can see them here: http://bostik.co.nz/productDetails.aspx?p=863&c=115&t=i, and http://bostik.co.nz/productDetails.aspx?p=867&c=115&t=i . I used about a third of the primer, and two and a bit cartridges of sealant. I still have the ends of the ballast to fill.

    In my idle moments I did some more work on the rudder-fitting patterns and the centreboard. Lots of filleting coming up!

    Cheers,
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  5. #215
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    NIce! Disc brakes on the trailer? Interesting method on the keel bolts, think Annie Hill did something similar on her latest build, does at least make getting the bolts through the keel without any damage a lot easier. That a lot of sticky work ahead, not my favourite part .More power to your elbow!

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Well done Ian. Good luck with the filleting, all I can say is don't make them too big, its a PITA.

  7. #217
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    I thought I had sent this, but I must have forgotten to press the "post" button, or something. Sorry about that. It has just magically reappeared.

    Thanks, Ian and Andrew. Glad to know I'm in good company.
    I poured clear resin in around the keel-bolt nuts today (26 April). They look like insects in amber. I was a bit ahead of myself, mentioning the filleting. The next job is to tidy up the ballast and paint it to match the rest. I have hoisted the boat up clear of the trailer now, and put a sturdy saw-stool under each end. I have also taken the guide wheels off. The ones on the port side would get in the way of the centreboard, so they will be modified later.
    Here's a photo of the keel bolts.


    Since then, I have drilled the hole in the support block for the c/b pivot bolt in the correct position, but I would rather have seen a bit more wood below the bolt. I have wirebrushed the ballast and given it one coat of epoxy (sanded smooth), two coats of grey primer with microballoon fairing around the edges between coats, and three coats of antifouling.


    This is just one coat of antifouling. It has had two more since, but still looks like this. I'm glad I don't have to crawl around under the hull any more!


    I have also painted the patterns for the rudder fittings and chain-plates, ready to take them to the foundry,


    and glued up the lengthwise members of the centreboard, which are oak boards with three copper rods through them.

    The next move is to put a pair of wheels and the side supports back on the trailer and move the whole thing over parallel to the window, where the boat was on the building frame. Then the filleting...

    Cheers, Ian
    Last edited by IanMilne; 05-09-2017 at 04:06 PM. Reason: add "wirebrushed"
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  8. #218
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    P. S: Brakes are required on a trailer if the total weight of the trailer plus load is 2000kg or more. Disc brakes are the usual sort put on a new trailer. My total weight might not be quite 2000kg, but it must be getting close.
    Ian

  9. #219
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Trailer in EU with load capacity over 750kg have to have breaks,most of them even new seem to have drums. My 3.5 ton trailer is on drums too.
    Probably a bit late, but if you think your pivot bolt carrier is a little to slim on the bottom edge, i would have been tempted to put a metal (bronze/galv steel) strap between the two bolts......something you could do down the line if the existing one is shown to be an issue.
    Nice job on the bolts..... will you leave them clear or paint over them?

  10. #220
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Trailer in EU with load capacity over 750kg have to have breaks,most of them even new seem to have drums. My 3.5 ton trailer is on drums too.
    Probably a bit late, but if you think your pivot bolt carrier is a little to slim on the bottom edge, i would have been tempted to put a metal (bronze/galv steel) strap between the two bolts......something you could do down the line if the existing one is shown to be an issue.
    Nice job on the bolts..... will you leave them clear or paint over them?

    certainly the most... unique? centerboard pivot bolt arrangement I have ever encountered, is this what the designer calls for?

  11. #221
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    certainly the most... unique? centerboard pivot bolt arrangement I have ever encountered, is this what the designer calls for?
    Yes, it is part of the design, I really think Ian did a great job on his Kotik - it's near the top of my shortlist

    Here is a pic from his website:

  12. #222
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks for all your comments.

    This is Iain's full-sized drawing of the off-centreboard support system for the Wee Seal/Kotik design. The ballast is 125mm (5") square and the block is 50mm (2") thick. There are no fastenings shown. Photos on page 5 of this thread (posts 158 and 164) show where I thought the hole in the block was going to be, after I had allowed (but not enough) for the keel being a little thicker. I don't like the way it is now either. I will definitely do something about it.


    Ian (skara), thanks for your suggestion. I thought of that too, but also too late. I have been thinking of various ways of arranging a metal strap to reinforce the block, along the bottom or down the side, or both. I notice you mention bronze or galvanised steel. I have a piece of stainless steel 316. Would that be a problem? The anti-fouling paint is copper-based. I have been trying to keep to the principal of using bronze fastenings below the waterline, so that the boat will be capable of being left afloat, but the pivot bolt is specified as stainless steel anyway. I don't really see that as a problem, because the bolt will be easily accessible and able to be removed and inspected, maybe once a year, and replaced if necessary.
    I will leave the resin clear over the keel bolts, so you can still see them. There will be a bulkhead at each end of the c/b case.

    I think what I will do is scrape all the paint off the bottom of the block and the bolt-heads, and glue a piece of oak about an inch (25mm) thick along it to make the whole thing deeper, with s/bronze screws up into the block on each side of the pivot hole, fair it in and paint it to match the rest.


    I don't want to exaggerate the difficulties, but I don't want to gloss over them either. If this thread helps potential Kotik-builders, (Dirc, maybe?) that's good. That's what we're all here for.

    And here's the present state of the centreboard. It will need to be planed flat. The wood is oak, and the block of lead (just out of sight) weighs 23kg. It's going to be a heavy thing! I will do as much shaping of it as I can before I install the lead.


    Cheers,
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Hi Ian, just thinking out loud here. What about a SB plate screwed on outside of block that turns under bottom and is captured by bolts and then have the nut welded to it.

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    I think the 1/2" pin cantilevered off the main ballast should be more than adequate to hold up that 23kg board.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    I think the 1/2" pin cantilevered off the main ballast should be more than adequate to hold up that 23kg board.
    I agree, but i dont think its just vertical weight that concerns many, but any side loads that get imposed on it. Much will depend on how fine the tolerance is that Ian allows the board. If the head of the board and inside of the case was a snug fit, the pin should not come under too much strain.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks for those thoughts, guys.
    I have decided to glue a piece of oak along the bottom of the block, with a s/bronze 100 x 6mm bolt (long thread) screwed up on each side of the pivot bolt. I have just ordered the bolts.
    I have weighed the whole centreboard this morning. In its present state it is 45kg. The pivot bolt is 20mm (3/4") stainless steel 316. The top end of the board will remain square and be a fairly close fit in the case. Should be good.
    Cheers all,
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  17. #227
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    I think the 1/2" pin cantilevered off the main ballast should be more than adequate to hold up that 23kg board.
    I think you are right, all the strength of the board as far as lateral pressure should be held by the box, not the bolt... especially if the bolt hole through the board is a tad oversize, then the bolt is just there to capture one end of the board and keep it from falling out of the box all together...


    I just was thinking it is an odd way to hang a centerboard... was this done to simplify the casting of the ballast keel by eliminating the need for a slot in it? and why not have the centerboard pivot up inside the hull, even if it is an off center board... ?

    guess it's a little late to be asking this now... gorgeous job on the build, looking forward to seeing the interior come together.

  18. #228
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    I just was thinking it is an odd way to hang a centerboard... was this done to simplify the casting of the ballast keel by eliminating the need for a slot in it? and why not have the centerboard pivot up inside the hull, even if it is an off center board... ?
    It keeps the simplicity of fabricating a ballast casting, but more importantlt, in my mind at least, it allows all the backbone of the boat to stay solid, and also raises the slot from the very bottom of the keel, so is more unlikely to jam the slot with mud and stones.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    It keeps the simplicity of fabricating a ballast casting, but more importantlt, in my mind at least, it allows all the backbone of the boat to stay solid, and also raises the slot from the very bottom of the keel, so is more unlikely to jam the slot with mud and stones.
    sure, all legitimate reasons for an off center board... my questions were about the reasoning for placing the pivot point of the board on the exterior of the hull... I have seen several centerboards that drop past a keel rather than through it, but have never seen one of those boards pivoted on a pin and appendage exterior to the hull.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Daniel. Glad you like the build so far. Ian (skara) gives three of the reasons why I like this centreboard arrangement. Another one is that it allows for a wide bench/quarter-berth/whatever on the same side as the case and a decent walkway down the middle of the boat to the forward cabin which I plan to have, forward of station 4, as shown in the plan above which Dirc has provided. I also like the idea of having the pivot bolt below the hull. (It will have a nylock nut on it.) I will take your advice and make the pivot hole in the board a slack fit on the bolt.

    Here is what I have done today:
    Stripped some paint,


    shaped a piece of oak,


    and dry-fitted it, with temporary screws. I expect the bolts tomorrow.


    I will be happy with this arrangement.

    And while we're here, here is a better photo of the patterns for my rudder fittings and chain plates. The foundryman will make pins out of bronze rod and cast them into the pintles. I will drill the gudgeon holes in the castings. (Yes, I will clamp them down firmly.) I will take the patterns to the foundry this week.


    That's all. Thanks for the discussion.

    Ian
    Last edited by IanMilne; 05-08-2017 at 05:55 AM. Reason: typo
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Daniel, I see your point about having the pivot inside the hull rather than below it. Then you wouldn't need the block on the outside, which would be good too. I can only say that this is the way Iain has designed it.
    Ian

  22. #232
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    Default

    In addition to W the reasons Ian has pointed out, having the pin external to the boat keeps the centerboard case lower inside and also removes any potential leaks with the pin. . Of course it adds drag, but overall I like the arrangement.


    Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    I went back to page 5 because I could not remember how the CB nubbin was installed





    I still think it whole arrangement is probably just fine but I also know that you will always be thinking about it if something isn't done. Here is an idea:

    Do you have enough bolt length to put a strip of silicon bronze 1/4" x 1" x NL (nubbin length) under the bolt heads to act as a big rectangular washer/reinforcement plate?
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, peb, and Steve. You're right about it lowering the case, too. The leading edge of the board will still be 3 or 4" below the garboard when it is retracted. I don't mind that. There will a bit of drag from that and the block (nubbin?) but the motor will be on the same side so it won't be pushing me round in circles! The idea of a plate between the heads of those big bolts is what Ian (skaraborgcraft) was meaning in post #219. You can see that there is plenty of length on the bolts. I thought of that too, but I can't locate any suitably small piece of bronze plate and I don't know how I would get those bolts out to do it. Maybe by heating them with a gas bottle flame thrower, preferably without setting the boat on fire....
    Anyway, I think we can leave this subject now. Thanks for all your ideas. My new bolts have arrived, so I will get off my computer and go and do some work!
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  25. #235
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    Smile Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Well, here is that "nubbin" thing you were all waiting to see, two bolts used as drifts, some fairing, a coat of epoxy and five coats of paint later.


    While the coats of paint were drying, I carried on with the off-centreboard. After I had glued the main body together and planed the faces of it flat, we tried it in the case. OK so far.


    Here it is showing the copper rods to go in as drifts. It has three rods with washers and nuts through the width of it.


    Gluing the top end on. The pivot hole is filled with high-density filler.


    I shaped the sides as much as I can before I put the lead and the bottom end on. I made a boo-boo. The larger of the two holes is the correct one. The other one will get filled. This is for the lanyard which will come over the sheave set in the top of the case and aft to a trailer-winch of some sort. The plans give no details. See, I do make shavings now and then.

    This plane was the most useful tool for the job. It is an old Stanley Record, No. 04 1/2. It is quite wide and has a good heft to it.


    I will drill the lead and complete the assembly tomorrow.

    Cheers, Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  26. #236
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    And here is the current state of my workshop. We have brought Sooty Tern Trondra in temporarily. The Kotik trailer will get some modifications in due course. I intend to paint the Kotik's sheerstrake with the same green paint as on the Sooty Tern.


    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  27. #237
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    A fine pair there, Ian!

  28. #238
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Thad.
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  29. #239
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thats a nice shade of green too. The family resemblance is clear to see.

  30. #240
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Ian. Yes, I like the family resemblance too. Here's another pair, with no family resemblance at all.

    This was my 17ft Swampscott dory Clarsach, that I had from 1993 to about five years ago. Those were my "sail and oar" camping days, with a bit of overlap with my kayaking (sigh). She was the Dion dory out of The Dory Book, with seam-batten construction. I didn't build her, but did her up in 1999. She was a great boat (still is, I hope).
    The red one, as you probably realise, was my Eun na Mara canoe-yawl, Islesburgh.

    I glued up the rest of the Kotik centreboard today, with the big block of lead, copper rods and all. I have to admit I'm glad that's done now. I can finish shaping it up tomorrow. I'm slowing down a bit now. Winter has arrived.

    Cheers,
    Ian
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  31. #241
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Inspirational stuff, Ian! You're making great progress, and with apparent ease.

    On a side note - I grew up in Dunedin and often drove past what now is your workshop. I think I even vaguely remember it with taxi signage on the front! I'll be down in Dunedin next weekend to see my sister perform in The Sound of Music. I might give you a shout, if time and family commitments permit?

  32. #242
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Hi Ian, I just subscribed to your build thread a couple of weeks ago, and I'm enjoying seeing your progress, though I haven't read all the words (I did look at all the photos though). Just curious why you decided to sell your EM and build Kotik. They seem like pretty similar boats, though Kotik is a bit larger. My apologies if you've already answered this question -- just direct me to the applicable post. Thanks!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The man who makes no mistakes does not usually make anything"

    Roosevelt, Theodore

  33. #243
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Mark. Good to hear from you. You're welcome to get in touch next weekend. Phone is 03 488 4205 if you want it.
    I've had a look at your thread. That's pretty clever!
    Ian

    Thanks, Ed. Yes, I'm trying to keep it fairly pictorial. There were several reasons for selling the Eun na Mara, some more valid that others, no doubt. It was a very nice boat and I don't want to put anybody off building one. I think I have discussed it somewhere in this thread. We had done the trips in it that we wanted to do, my wife wanted to get on with her own project, and the rigging time meant that we stopped using it locally. We also had health issues at the time, but we are OK now. I had no intention then of building another cruising boat...
    Ian
    Last edited by IanMilne; 05-20-2017 at 06:31 AM. Reason: phone no.
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
    Alan Byde, Canoe Design and Construction, Pelham Books, 1978

    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
    Allan H. Vaitses, Lofting, International Marine, 1980

  34. #244
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    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post

    On 29th April 2016 I got my Sooty Tern building frame down from the rafters and converted it to a lofting table with three sheets of 16mm construction plywood, as specified for the moulds.
    Cheers,
    Ian
    Just over a year of work, you are setting a nice pace Ian. See you in September.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  35. #245
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Posts
    245

    Default Re: Kotik, Kotik, Kotik!

    Thanks, Steve. It will be good to see you and PT again.
    Ian

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