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Thread: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

  1. #1
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    Default Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi just wanted to no if anyone else in nz owns or has sailed on a Frank Blom schooner, I have owned mine for about 3 years and have made a few changes to try and make it sail better, it has very bad lee helm, ive shifted both masts back 7" and it didnt make any difference so next im going to change it from a single headsail to a staysail and jib,

    has anyone else had the same problems with a frank bloom schooner i know of 5 of the schooners through out nz
    mine is kept in picton.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Without a photo or a drawing its hard to imagine , but often a genoa will have its centre further aft than jib and staysail.
    Do you know if the others sail ok? can you get more roach in your main,does it have a bowsprit?Rake?

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi ive just put up a drawing of the boat and you can look at some photos of it by clicking on the flickr link,I cant rake the masts anymore or else the boom angle will be to low, ive tryed all the things to fix the problem apart from reducing the headsail size.

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    I saw a frank blom schooner sailing in lyttelton years ago and in stead of the gaff sail it had a jib shape sail in its place

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Some other suggestions for you. 1st its unlikely a major design issue partially with a stock design, so;
    Often heavy displacement yachts will have significant lee helm in low speed situations such as coming out if a tack or in very light weather. The weather helm generaly increases as the hull heels and the boat starts putting her lee shoulder into the water. The designed hull centre of lateral resistance is calculated but the actual turning moments change when heeling.
    Hence to ensure that the helm is not excessifly loaded up in 15 knots if breeze you may have some lee helm at 5 knots of wind.
    The next thing I would be looking at is sail trim. On a schooner as you move aft the sails needs to be trimmed flatter.
    In lighter conditions it's easy to over trimmed the jib/Genoa. I also know that in our keeler when coming out of a low speed tack we have to gradually tighten the Genoa as we build speed and start to harder up on to the wind or we get lee helm.
    Zane

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi ive tryed sailing this schooner over the last 3 years in light and and strong winds but the lee held is still very bad, the design of the boat dose balance out with centre of lateral resistance, theres 2 things that it dose, if I go to tack I turn the rudder hard over but it won't go about unless I let the headsail right out as the wind on the nose is to much, and then when I do finally do go about onto the other tack it heads right around almost down wind until it loses the wind of the sail then it will start to come up again, this happens even with my rudder hard over to make it point up into the wind but the rudder doesnt counteract it, I didnt think on a heavy boat i would have to trim the sails all the time ive own other old heavy yachts before and i could sail them be leaving the sails in one place for the whole day.

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    I'd be reluctant to believe that there was something amiss with the design too, but stranger things have happened I suppose.
    If it was my boat I'd probably not switch to a cutter head rig although if you could borrow a small sail it 'd be worth the experiment. It already looks a bit undercanvassed to my eye and as I said , often a big sail ( especially with overhang) can have its centre behind that of jib and staysail.
    First I'd be re looking at ways to shift the centre of sail area aft , which is rake or a new, bigger mainsail, even if I had to revise the backstay.
    I'd also be tempted to try a genoa jib with some overlap. After that , I might look at tacking the jib on the stem head rather than bowsprit( you could try that) and then I'd be thinking about the underwater profile to see whats going on there.
    Do you know how to get a working CLR? and C/E?

    When I re rigged my boat ( which had too much lee helm for me) I went sailing in various conditions and sail configurations until I found what I wanted. In my case it was staysail and reefed bermudan main in 25 knots of wind. I plotted that geometry and placed that mark on the deck. I found a working CLR by pushing the boat off the dock until I found a pivot point. made a mark. The difference between the two is the lead , or a working lead/ datum for your boat anyway.

    I designed my new full rig to put its centre where the staysail and reefed main fell on the deck, it was perfect . easy.
    Last edited by John B; 04-12-2016 at 07:59 PM.

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi thanks for your post, if its good weather this weekend i will try shifting the headsail inboard, I can tie it on to the stem or samson post just to see how much difference it makes,I think it should work, I have looked over the plans and the CLR and C/E all works out ok, I have made new davits for the boat and have shifted the back stays right back to the end of the divits,I had to do this to shift the masts back 7" so the boom doesnt hit the back stays, it would be good to find out from other owners of this design to see how there schooners sail, I think this design cant have ever sailed that well

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Have you tried shifting/trimming ballast to change the underwater profile/CLR?
    Seems folks often accept that the waterline 'as found' is the correct one, and make dramatic changes in the rig without considering adjusting the waterline/CLR.
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi, I have been thinking about that apart for the lead keel there is a few blocks of lead right up the front, I have a new motor that i will be putting in the boat in the next few months, the new motor is a lot lighter than the old yanmar thats in it now so that will also lift the aft of the boat, I think there needs to be more lead right up the front, as the design shows under the waterline the bow doesnt go down very deep into the water, with 3 people in the cockpit and the heavy motor the bow is out of the water even more which would let the nose get blown around

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/izhi/a...h/26111386990/

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    That sounds worth a try as well. Getting weight out of the back of the boat will make a big difference to its sailing performance as well.
    Weight aft will add lee helm. Forward Creates Weather helm.
    How many people do you have down aft and are any sitting right on the transom.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Quote Originally Posted by schooner888 View Post
    Hi just wanted to no if anyone else in nz owns or has sailed on a Frank Blom schooner, I have owned mine for about 3 years and have made a few changes to try and make it sail better, it has very bad lee helm, ive shifted both masts back 7" and it didnt make any difference so next im going to change it from a single headsail to a staysail and jib,

    has anyone else had the same problems with a frank bloom schooner i know of 5 of the schooners through out nz
    mine is kept in picton.
    I built my Sinope and as I looked at the CE and the position of the CLR and the reputation of Schooners - with their main sail aft - to have a lee helm. So when I made the fore mast and the bowsprit, I built two feet on to the bowsprit and two feet on to the fore mast and ran a Yankee jib on a furler on the stay. This meant running another stay from the top of the foremast to the aft mast but this seemed to balance the boat beautifully and when the wind for forward I could set the sails, leave the tiller to look after itself and the little boat would manage itself like that so I could go down below and make a cup of coffee. She seemed to hunt the wind direction herself without any need to correct with the tiller. I was pleased to see other photos of Sinope and note that she seemed quite down in the stern. Mine was, and I though I may have overbuilt her in the cockpit area. Otherwise she was a great little boat and I was terribly,terribly sad to have to sell her.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    I agree that she's probably a bit light in the bow. And given that water is a bit denser than air, correcting the fore and aft trim is usually a good first step.

    Even when you get her right, schooners tack differently than sloops. When she sails correctly with just a little weather helm, you will still find she tacks more reliably if you free the jib right before or as you put the helm down. Don't ask a schooner to go into the eye of the wind with the head held off by the jib.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Ian's got it. A schooner is a different beast. Here's how I like to tack a schooner.

    First I ease all of the sheets just a bit and drive off a point or so to get some power in the sails and a bit more speed. Pick your spot to tack. This may vary a bit between boats. I generally like to put the helm over just as the bow is getting close to cresting a not too big wave. I blow the jib sheet as I put the helm down, then I sheet it in and hold it as the bow approaches the eye of the wind. I let the jib backwind until the main begins to fill in the new tack and the boom crosses the centerline. As the boat goes head to wind, I ease a bit more main. I bring the helm back to mid-ship and try to time it so that I'm about 10 low of course when the boat straightens out. I'm trimming the main as the boat settles onto her new, just a bit off the wind, course. I pause sheeting the jib just before it's been sheeted home, and give the boat a chance to get back up to full speed. Then I slowly trim both main and jib to close hauled, and finally then, deal with the stays'ls. When the boat has settled on her new course, I fine tune the sail trim, starting at the bow and working back.

    Your lee helm is a different matter. Looking at your sailplan, it seems that maybe that big gaff fore of yours is putting a lot of sail area ahead of your CLR. It could be worth borrowing a jib from a smaller boat and rigging it as a main stays'l in place of your gaff fore. You might also try replacing your jib with a smaller high cut jib in combination with a fore stays'l. Bigger sails give you more power, but if that power is misapplied, it's only going to slow you down and try to force you off course.

    Lee helm is just wrong. I don't know your design. Is your sailplan as it was originally drawn or has it been modified. As others have mentioned, I also doubt that she had lee helm as she was originally drawn. Get yourself some face time with a sailmaker, and/or an NA. You need somebody who can crunch the numbers for you.

    Best of luck, and please, keep us informed of your progress. We love to see how things turn out and the knowledge we gain from your solution can help others.
    Schooner captains love to get blown offshore!

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Quote Originally Posted by Niven Ball View Post
    I built my Sinope and as I looked at the CE and the position of the CLR and the reputation of Schooners - with their main sail aft - to have a lee helm. So when I made the fore mast and the bowsprit, I built two feet on to the bowsprit and two feet on to the fore mast and ran a Yankee jib on a furler on the stay. This meant running another stay from the top of the foremast to the aft mast but this seemed to balance the boat beautifully and when the wind for forward I could set the sails, leave the tiller to look after itself and the little boat would manage itself like that so I could go down below and make a cup of coffee. She seemed to hunt the wind direction herself without any need to correct with the tiller. I was pleased to see other photos of Sinope and note that she seemed quite down in the stern. Mine was, and I though I may have overbuilt her in the cockpit area. Otherwise she was a great little boat and I was terribly,terribly sad to have to sell her.
    Your description would have Her looking something like the photo and She would indeed sail beautifully.

    Its good to see a thread about Frank Bloms Sinope in a forum, I agree with Schooner888 that there is around 5 completed Sinope schooners around New Zealand and 1 with a Bermudan cutter rig.

    Maybe we should share some ideas and insights and get a fix on where we all are.
    IMG_20180224_134123.jpg
    Last edited by Adrian Hill; 03-13-2018 at 05:20 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    I've seen that boat this year!. Te kouma I think and perhaps mahurangi?

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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Lovely Te Kouma always a pleasure and Mahurangi; if I ever get enough courage up a may enter one of the races one time.

    I wonder how Schooner888 got on with his modifications ?

    There were a couple of part finished Sinopes in the North Island a few years back, are any close to water yet. It would be good to hear about them.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    IIRC there was Sinope ? that did a return voyage from NZ to Alaska. This was junk rigged . Last seen in Kawhia harbor.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Just curious. How old and tired are your sails? I put a new main and Genoa on my old plastic classic Alberg 30 years ago and retired the old sails to the dump - they were really blown out and tired, even for casual cruising purposes. The change in performance in the old girl was astonishing with new sails.

    glenn

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Frank Blom Schooner (sinope)

    Hi, I own a 28 foot Frank Blom Schooner. Turangi. Picked her up in Picton on the top of the South Island of New Zealand last year.

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