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Thread: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

  1. #1
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    Default China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s?srnd=premium

    China has concealed the extent of the coronavirus outbreak in its country, under-reporting both total cases and deaths it’s suffered from the disease, the U.S. intelligence community concluded in a classified report to the White House, according to three U.S. officials.


    The officials asked not to be identified because the report is secret and declined to detail its contents. But the thrust, they said, is that China’s public reporting on cases and deaths is intentionally incomplete. Two of the officials said the report concludes that China’s numbers are fake.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Imagine that! Why am I not surprised?

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    I’ve read that people in Wuhan are saying 40,000 to 50,000 dead just in Wuhan. There are photos of 5,000 urns being delivered to one of the seven crematoriums. Official deaths are around 2,500.

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    Default

    Who has not been dismissing China's numbers for quite some time?

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    And who has been comparing the US's numbers to the fake Chinese numbers to gloat over the failure of Trump and the federal response?

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    And who has been comparing the US's numbers to the fake Chinese numbers to gloat over the failure of Trump and the federal response?
    Nobody has been gloating. That's a despicable thing to suggest and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself. What a foul display of character.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    Nobody has been gloating. That's a despicable thing to suggest and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself. What a foul display of character.
    Gosh. You'd think you personally were accused of gloating.

    The satisfaction with which some members of this forum have reported the rising number of US cases and perceived failures of federal response is quite obvious.

    Own it.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    Gosh. You'd think you personally were accused of gloating.

    The satisfaction with which some members of this forum have reported the rising number of US cases and perceived failures of federal response is quite obvious.

    Own it.
    I think you need to own your own despicable projecting. Get real!
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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    The satisfaction with which some members of this forum have reported the rising number of US cases and perceived failures of federal response is quite obvious.
    They aren't "satisfied", they are dissatisfied (and appalled) at the incompetence of your president. And rightfully so.

    What are you doing about it?




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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Not gloating; highly concerned. The Administrations response has been abysmal; criminal, even. That's not gloating. That's recognizing poor leadership.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    I see the US count is now over 205K. Very dismal and unfortunate.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    China lied before with SARS. Same people were in charge then are still. It was due to the WHO and American leadership along with the CDC that turned it around.

    The people of Wuhan have had enough. 5000 funeral Urns arrived with another 10,000 next week. Many people who live in Wuhan province want to leave as soon as possible to escape the disease.





    Meanwhile - China Has Been Shipping Wuhan Coronavirus Tests to Europe...And They Don't Work.

    And even still, China screws up. A good chunk of those Wuhan coronavirus tests they’ve doled out doesn’t work. In the Czech Republic, some 80 percent of the tests are worthless (via Taiwan Times):

    A Czech news site on March 23 revealed that 80 percent of the much-touted traunch of Wuhan coronavirus (COVID-19) rapid test kits "donated" from China are faulty, forcing healthcare workers to rely on conventional laboratory tests.
    On March 18, as is the case with many of its other quasi charitable acts, Chinese state-run mouthpieces used the verbs "supplied" and "delivered" to give the impression that the communist regime was donating 150,000 portable, rapid COVID-19 test kits to the Czech Republic. In fact, the central European nation's Health Ministry paid some 14 million crowns (US$546,000) for 100,000 test kits, while the country's Interior Ministry footed the bill for another 50,000, reported Expats.cz.
    However, Czech news site iROZHLAS on Monday revealed that local healthcare workers have discovered that up to 80 percent of the Chinese kits give false results. During a crisis staff meeting held for the Moravian-Silesian Region by regional hygienist Pavla Svrcinova, the error rate for the test kits was found to be 80 percent, prompting officials to suggest they only be used for those persons who are nearing the end of their quarantine and never previously tested positive.

    In Spain, they bought 640,000 of those Chinese testing kits.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Can't trust a word that comes from Xi Jinping. Or Putin. Or Trump. Imagine a world where the three most powerful people are so evil.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine. – Rudolph Spielmann

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Play the opening like a book, the middle game like a magician, and the endgame like a machine. – Rudolph Spielmann

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by kgr1 View Post
    And who has been comparing the US's numbers to the fake Chinese numbers to gloat over the failure of Trump and the federal response?
    You have a weird spin on this news. Trump does not respect basic facts or experts who work with them. Across the board Trump does this and has done it during the run up of the pandemic. It’s what he does. Pointing that out and the instances it leads to poor performance is not gloating. So here we are and the numbers are undeniable. Unlike Puerto Rico where he said only 17 died the disease hits him and his peers hard.
    He can’t lie about this. The numbers aren’t beautiful, the best, perfect.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    #12, what he said………….

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    misc.

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/0...cult.html#more

    As for the number of urns delivered to funeral homes in Hubei after the quarantine was lifted one has also to consider the number of regular death. Hubei province has some sixty million inhabitants. The regular mortality rate in China is 726 per 100.000 inhabitants per year. The regular expected number of death from January 1 to March 31 in Hubei province without the epidemic was 108.900. In Wuhan, which has 14 million inhabitants, the expected number was 25.410. Photos that show the delivery of a few thousands of urns to large funeral homes in Wuhan are thereby not a sign for a higher Covid-19 death rate. To claim such is propaganda nonsense.

    There is no reason to criticize China for publishing incomplete and a times confusing numbers. That is normal during any epidemic and the U.S. will certainly do likewise. The real problem with the various numbers flowing around lies elsewhere.

    People do try to make predictions about how many will get infected and die from the virus. These models are needed to prepare ones resources. But prediction is extremely difficult to do as the various models react very sensitive to the input data. A model that works in country A may give the wrong results when it used for country B. Cities and towns are different. Local circumstances can make huge differences. With the real infection numbers and the real death rate unknown during an outbreak we can only hope that our epidemiologists, who are trained to make and interpret such models, get it right.

    To claim that China deceived the U.S. and the world about its numbers or that China tried to make it look as if the epidemic was not as serious as it is makes no sense at all.

    China took extreme and drastic measures at high economic costs to prevent a larger outbreak. It did not do that to deceive anyone but because it saw the seriousness of the problem. It acted in the global interest and to defeat the virus.

    China gave the world time to prepare for the pandemic. Unfortunately that time was not used well. One reason that the U.S. will now experience a very large outbreak is that it is not willing to follow the Chinese example. If one declares that gun shops and shooting ranges are critical businesses that must stay open during a lockdown one is not serious about fighting the epidemic.

    To blame China for that is simply nonsensical.

    The real number of casualties the SARS-CoV-19 outbreak will cause will only be known when it is over and when we compare the new death statistics to those of previous years. One thing is assured. The "excess death" numbers will be lower in those countries that did use the time China gave them and prepared for what was coming at them.

    Posted by b on April 1, 2020 at 18:45 UTC | Permalink

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Lee, it is extremely implausible that China got their numbers of community spread cases down to zero. Very low, maybe, but zero points to a cover up. Also, there is the BS about not counting "asymptomatic" cases that test positive.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Yep, it is. But, this clamour is based on `a US intelligence report to the White House'. Why on Earth would anyone imagine that THAT would have any more integrity than the numbers released by the Chinese government? This is the mob that gave us WMDs in Iraq, that apparently comprehensively ignored years of advice about Al Quaeda and that has been ramping up anti-Chinese rhetoric for years! I'd be amazed if the figures coming from the Chinese government were even close to accurate but I'd be astounded if the referenced quote from `US intelligence' is anything other than gobbledegook.

    China is a very wired-up place. Social media and all forms of e-communication are everywhere in China, especially across the more industrialised areas, like Hubei. There is no way that if the deaths in Wuhan were massively greater than the reports, as opposed to significantly greater, that information wouldn't be flooding out of China. Imagine how the people of Hong Kong would be reacting!

    Tests: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/h...-kits-cdc.html

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 04-02-2020 at 04:51 AM.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post

    China is a very wired-up place. Social media and all forms of e-communication are everywhere in China, especially across the more industrialised areas, like Hubei. There is no way that if the deaths in Wuhan were massively greater than the reports, as opposed to significantly greater, that information wouldn't be flooding out of China. Imagine how the people of Hong Kong would be reacting!
    Yes there is. If no one compiles the figures, no one knows the totals. You may know of deaths among your contacts, but you won't know they are part of a national trend.

    China has a long history of suppressing the death toll of disasters. And they want people to go back to work even if some will die. As long as they keep hospitals from being overwhelmed it can work.

    China may be draconianly efficient, but they can't beat biology. The most likely reality is that after building lots of hospitals, they are letting it burn through at a controlled rate to get to herd immunity, and suppressing the news of the death toll.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Lee, it is extremely implausible that China got their numbers of community spread cases down to zero. Very low, maybe, but zero points to a cover up. Also, there is the BS about not counting "asymptomatic" cases that test positive.
    I guess I react to blanket characterizations like “fake” as it tends to color all reporting as fake. There’s a lot of unknown data that will take time to collate.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Once again, I am with George. It's likely that China is under reporting for political reasons. I don't think the cell phone data reflects COVID-19 cases, but it is very likely that their transmission rate is higher than zero. The Chinese political system is organized in a way that encourages under reporting. The US intelligence report is vague, but almost certainly correct in its over all direction.
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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Also, remember that Trump is a threat to Xi's leadership because of his erratic behavior. It's already clear that Xi is trying to use the pandemic to China's advantage. His strategy would be working well if it were not for the fact that the test kits he donated are defective. He could certainly be controlling the flow of information in ways that are designed to damage Trump.
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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    Yes there is. If no one compiles the figures, no one knows the totals. You may know of deaths among your contacts, but you won't know they are part of a national trend.

    China has a long history of suppressing the death toll of disasters. And they want people to go back to work even if some will die. As long as they keep hospitals from being overwhelmed it can work.

    China may be draconianly efficient, but they can't beat biology. The most likely reality is that after building lots of hospitals, they are letting it burn through at a controlled rate to get to herd immunity, and suppressing the news of the death toll.
    I think it's a pretty heavy accusation to make George, without evidence. The numbers being thrown around would have overwhelmed the hospitals in Wuhan and, I think, across Hubei. That would be a difficult scenario to hide, especially in China. As I said, I'm sure the figures released are very unlikely to be accurate but figures of 40 - 50 000 deaths in Wuhan? I don't believe it.

    Rick

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I think it's a pretty heavy accusation to make George, without evidence. The numbers being thrown around would have overwhelmed the hospitals in Wuhan and, I think, across Hubei. That would be a difficult scenario to hide, especially in China. As I said, I'm sure the figures released are very unlikely to be accurate but figures of 40 - 50 000 deaths in Wuhan? I don't believe it.

    Rick
    I agree. In my experience of living in China, people there love to spread rumours, because they all know that the officially sanctioned media are likely to be "doctored", and of course rumours have to be spectacular to be worth spreading!

    I remember that when I was living in Beijing in 1998 a bomb was found ay Beijing Central Station (it was defused). Within a few hours, my taxi driver was assuring me that ten bombs had detonated across the city...
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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Yep, it is. But, this clamour is based on `a US intelligence report to the White House'. Why on Earth would anyone imagine that THAT would have any more integrity than the numbers released by the Chinese government? This is the mob that gave us WMDs in Iraq, that apparently comprehensively ignored years of advice about Al Quaeda and that has been ramping up anti-Chinese rhetoric for years! I'd be amazed if the figures coming from the Chinese government were even close to accurate but I'd be astounded if the referenced quote from `US intelligence' is anything other than gobbledegook.

    China is a very wired-up place. Social media and all forms of e-communication are everywhere in China, especially across the more industrialised areas, like Hubei. There is no way that if the deaths in Wuhan were massively greater than the reports, as opposed to significantly greater, that information wouldn't be flooding out of China. Imagine how the people of Hong Kong would be reacting!

    Tests: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/12/h...-kits-cdc.html

    Rick
    I'm confused as to the distinction you're making between "massively greater" and "significantly greater". Which would it be if, say, the numbers were off by a factor of five?

    As to the US testing kits, I won't attempt to defend the shambles of the situation in the states. However, an internally developed kit that had problems at the beginning (more or less) of the outbreak in the US is a far cry from a kit that is being made available abroad as "aid" by a country that has supposedly turned the corner on the virus.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I think it's a pretty heavy accusation to make George, without evidence. The numbers being thrown around would have overwhelmed the hospitals in Wuhan and, I think, across Hubei. That would be a difficult scenario to hide, especially in China. As I said, I'm sure the figures released are very unlikely to be accurate but figures of 40 - 50 000 deaths in Wuhan? I don't believe it.

    Rick
    My evidence is:

    - the implausibility of the current official numbers;

    - the fact that they have manipulated the numbers before in this pandemic;

    - China's long history of consistently undercounting casualties, from earthquakes to Tienanmen Square;

    - the CCP's stated goal of getting people back to work once they "decreed" that the virus is under control.

    I am not saying they are hiding millions of corpses. All I am saying is that they probably flattened the curve enough so that there are still new cases and deaths, but no more than the system can handle. That is the goal for all countries. New infections near zero is just not possible at this point.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    i've talked to people that get paid to know more than we know. the numbers out of china are fake and deliberately so.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Hmmm.... sounds like a conspiracy....
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by George. View Post
    My evidence is:

    - the implausibility of the current official numbers;

    - the fact that they have manipulated the numbers before in this pandemic;

    - China's long history of consistently undercounting casualties, from earthquakes to Tienanmen Square;

    - the CCP's stated goal of getting people back to work once they "decreed" that the virus is under control.

    I am not saying they are hiding millions of corpses. All I am saying is that they probably flattened the curve enough so that there are still new cases and deaths, but no more than the system can handle. That is the goal for all countries. New infections near zero is just not possible at this point.
    What? Our govts may not have our individual needs and happiness in mind when they make these decisions? Inconceivable!
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Maybe, as a first approximation, apply the same multiplier required to get from the 'official' tally of hurricane Maria deaths in Puerto Rico to the actual number reached by subsequent research. IIRC that would be about 50x

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    I have been wondering who it is in China who decides how many new cases they report each day. Would live to know his thinking, 40, 35, 50,20, etc. Just wondering why a country that size would not just say zero, does he actually think these are more believable?

    And I heard today North Korea has reported 1 case u o to thus point. Again, why 1? They were reporting zero until a few days ago,IIRC. What makes them get up one miring and say, "what the heck, let's tell the world we have our first case."?

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by pandelume View Post
    I'm confused as to the distinction you're making between "massively greater" and "significantly greater". Which would it be if, say, the numbers were off by a factor of five?

    As to the US testing kits, I won't attempt to defend the shambles of the situation in the states. However, an internally developed kit that had problems at the beginning (more or less) of the outbreak in the US is a far cry from a kit that is being made available abroad as "aid" by a country that has supposedly turned the corner on the virus.
    If people actually read reports of faulty tests and equipment. they'd see that supplies donated by the Chinese government were actually okay. Supplies ordered from some Chinese companies, however, were faulty or not up to standard. It's a far cry from suggestions that the Chinese are dumping faulty gear on the US as a strategy.

    I think the distinction between significantly and massively is pretty simple. 5x would be massively when we're talking about thousands. It's one thing to suggest that China might not be releasing accurate figures. It's quite another to suggest they're covering up many thousands of deaths just in one province, let alone one city. I don't believe they could do that and I can't see any point in them trying to.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 04-02-2020 at 03:31 PM.

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    Default Re: China Coronavirus Numbers Are Fake

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Can't trust a word that comes from Xi Jinping. Or Putin. Or Trump. Imagine a world where the three most powerful people are so evil.
    The important words coming from Trump are from the professional people around him, Brix, Fauci and the rest of their team, you don't trust them? does he ad lib occasionally?, absolutely. If you don't think he knows what's really going on in China and their reports, think again.

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