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Thread: An Ilur in PA

  1. #1
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    Default An Ilur in PA

    A year after having decided to build a glued-lapstrake boat and that it would be an Ilur I am finally getting ready to get on with it.

    I must give credit to John Hartmann's fabulous thread on this Forum about his build of an Ilur in Vermont and Geoff Kerr's excellent video series on Off Center Harbor about building a Caledonia Yawl. In fact, it was Geoff Kerr's review of John Hartman's build for the WoodenBoat's 2015 Small Boat Edition that initially piqued my interest in Francois Vivier's design. Exactly a year ago I received the superbly executed plans from F. Vivier.

    By way of a quick introduction, I have been sailing smaller racing dinghies and larger boats for many years but was tempted to build a wooden boat when I first glimpsed an extraordinary Ness Yawl named Goldberry, built by my friend Garth Jones. Without experience or tools I dismissed the possibility of actually building a boat. However stopping by the Chesapeake Light Craft booth at the Annapolis Sailboat Show, watching a demo S&G build and picking up a brochure got me seriously thinking again... so, I built my first boat (a Passagemaker Dinghy) in 2010/11 and subsequently built two Hybrid Kayaks, Nick Schade's Night Heron and Eric Schade's Shearwater Sport (for my wife) and finally a Petrel in a full cedar strip version.

    Anyone wishing to read a bit more about why it took me a year to get going with Ilur is welcome to visit my blog which I had started when I built the PMD.

    Anyway, my PMD has been sold and I have made room to commence Ilur. The kit arrived at a warehouse in Pittsburgh this Monday. It is quite amazing how compact it is. I am hoping to have it transported to my garage by this weekend.

    In terms of glued lapstrake building I am obviously a total novice and expect to learn a lot by trial and error as much as by shared experience from Forum members.

    Anticipation is a sweet thing!


    NOTE: I tried to upload two pictures and even though I made them much smaller than their original I still get the message that it exceeds my quota. Never having uploaded anything on this Forum I am not quite sure how to fix this. For each of the two pic that quota was calculated differently so it does not even make sense.
    Last edited by cmosheh; 04-10-2016 at 09:06 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    welcome Cmosheh, Nice choice of boat and looking fwd to a thread. To post photos here you need to download them to a photo hosting site. Then you can connect them with the URL when you are replying (adding ) to a thread. In the "reply to" window you select the third icon from right ( withh tree) which brings up a box and you post URL there ( in url tab ) and deselect "Retrieve remote file........". That should get you pretty close. Its messy but after 396 goes youll get the hang of it.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thanks andrewpatrol for the tip on linking pics to another upload site.
    I tried linking a picture from Picasa (google+) and so far no luck.
    Google+ seems more like a "minus" if it does not allow to share pics across platforms.
    I'll figure out something else.
    C.
    Last edited by cmosheh; 02-25-2016 at 08:43 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Another Ilur! This should be good. John Hartmann lives close by, so I got an upclose look at his build. The kit is amazing in it's design. Everything goes together like a well crafted puzzle.
    Posting pictures can be a pain, but once you figure it out, it's not too bad. In the reply to thread box, you click on the fourth icon from right (insert image). Click on "From URL" and cut and paste from photo site. Then uncheck "retrieve remote file". Should work.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Using Tumblr I had no trouble at all. - So I had these wonderful plans for a year. Now they'll be put to constructive use.

    Last edited by cmosheh; 02-25-2016 at 05:44 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Subscribed to this thread, and very much looking forward to your build.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Right Rich!

    I had been using the correct icon. It apparently was simply the fact that google+ does not permit sharing across platforms. Highly annoying because editing the pictures in Picasa and uploading and using them on my blog is so easy.

    And yes, the ingenious design of the kit made me think that I could embark on this project without having attended any courses at the WoodenBoat School.
    Geoff Kerr's Video series is also excellent because I can get back to any segment if the steps get fuzzy.

    More when I actually get going!
    C.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Google is killing Picasa and folding it into Google Photos, so it's a good time to migrate elsewhere. http://googlephotos.blogspot.com/201...om-picasa.html Google likes to take things in, but has issues with sharing.

    You chose a lovely design. Looking forward to more photos.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Awesome! It'll be interesting to compare notes on "Kit" vs. "Classic."
    You'll probably pass me soon though!

    We'll have to get to work planning the East Coast Vivier Messabout.

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Falcon1,
    I don't think I'd have what it takes to do what you are doing. Hats off to you!!

    In the meantime, I can't wait to get on the boat and sail it.
    In due course, a Vivier Messabout would be great!

    Of course, Pittsburgh is not exactly "East" and by disposition the average 'burgher is definitely not East Coast.
    Just drive in the 'burgher traffic and you'll know for sure that you have left Philadelphia

    But as someone who came from the other side of the Atlantic I suppose can be counted as being from the East.
    C.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Preparations:

    One of the many things I did in preparation for Ilur was to construct a Manning Bench as recommended by Geoff Kerr and specified in "The Workbench Book". From time to time this bench will be an extension of my workbench. I don't have room for two as might be more ideal.

    Another thing accomplished just today was to upgrade the lighting in my boat building work space, i.e. formerly known as "Chris's side of the garage". From past experience working on long kayaks I remember how very deficient my space was in that respect and Ilur gave me an excellent reason to remedy this situation.

    Weather permitting the kit will come home tomorrow.
    After that a first trip to Mars Lumber will be on my agenda.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA


    On Vivier's site.

    Can we talk transom construction for just a minute on the Ilur kit built design.

    Studying the drawings, the ply transom gets a top/ trim/ cap wood piece for the sculling oar cut out articulation, and this is edge butted with glue to the main transom plywood piece. There is a plywood part you can see in the middle that overlaps the transom and an inch or so of the top wood piece. This reinforces the joint on the inside face. The topside planking I guess holds the top piece side on too.

    Given, there might be some racking forces through a vigorous sculling oar use, are we all happy that this is defo strong enough and there is no sign on the back of the transom of the joint opening up? It's the about the only part/ fitting/ arrangement that I've slightly questioned: but he's quite capable of calculating forces on wood, more than I, so it must be fine. Maybe the transom angle is putting the glue line into compression with the sculling oar. Dad had some elm planks open on his transom on his IO Gannet a bit that he'd bought (simple edge butted and glued planks) though Elm does move alot. No doubt I'll just build it to plan, but what do others think? Worth trying to fit a piece of ply into a routed groove between parts? Certainly a place for epoxy fully reinforced with microfibers after fully presaturating the wood with resin. John is Lapwing's transom joint looking absolutely fine on the outside face now you've sculled her around?

    John's Waxwing. You can see the glue line I'm talking about on the back of the transom.



    Ed
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-26-2016 at 06:40 AM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Definitely strong enough:



    Transom is holding up just fine, I used Spanish Cedar for the capping piece on Waxwing, and presaturated with neat epoxy before glue up, as you suggested.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thanks, good to know John. One other question, did Mr V fully sign off on Waxwing's lift off aft thwart, no mods necessary with all the pre-existing bracing. It seems like such a good idea. This feature attracted me alot to 'new' kit Ilur. Did you talk it over with him?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Actually, that was the one thing that I did without asking his permission as I set the boat up for my own uses. I had Mssr. V design the lug yawl rig so that he would be happy with it, and showed him several iterations of the molds for the mast clasp to get his input as I worked toward a final pattern for it. I am not an experienced boat builder, and it was very important to me to build the boat to a level that honored Vivier's design intent...my thinking about the lift out thwart was that the major stresses on the CB case would be concentrated at the forward end, where the front thwart is permanently fixed, and the foredeck supports the CB case to within a couple of inches of it's full height...At the after end of the CB case, the bulkhead which also forms the frames for the upper strakes is also the front surface of the side benches, and is a seriously rigid bit of marine ply; where it forms the ring to support floorboards, it supports the aft end of the case at about mid height. I had built the case very robustly, with dynel and epoxy lining the interior faces, and all the non ply was very tight growth black locust or larch, so I figured the case was stiff enough, and the support from the bulkheads fore and aft ample enough to set up the thwart to lift out. Makes a delightfully large space for lounging when I am camping in the boat. Francois has not ever scolded me for taking that liberty, so either I guessed well, or he is very polite....

  16. #16
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thanks John, there is alot of reinforcement at the case, and the plywood is thicker than it could be on every part to make her robust and the correct displacement and with all the framing, intrinsically very stiff. It is an excellent feature to be able to walk forward unhindered. I'll ask him about it nearer the time, I shall wear a crash helmet as I open the email to be safe. Traditionally Frenchmen are no sticklers for tradition in yacht design, i reckon he'd like it. Its definately something he should engineer in.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 02-26-2016 at 02:25 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Nice Video, John. I had not seen that one before.

    Regarding the removable thwart, Mr. Vivier is obviously open to evolving innovation and improvements as proven in so many instances of the Ilur design. John's request to build a yawl rig is a major example.

    On a smaller scale, I am planning to build the lug/sloop rig and just recently FV improved the design of the bow sprit in two respects. (1) It no longer attaches to a samson post and instead now attaches to a quick disconnect at the mast and (2) it now runs through a newly designed bow iron. (bronze). This set-up allows you to remove the sprit in a jiffy.

    Another example is the new design of the puzzle joints of the strakes which presumably eliminate the potential alignment problem John had reported on his thread.

    Today I brought the kit home to my garage. Gosh, I am so glad that I did not have it delivered to my house directly. And I am doubly-glad that I had a helper to slide each panel off of the pickup truck and inspect. The strong-back and building jig are no longer cut out of MDF. Hewes & Co now cuts these panels out of Advantech structural sheeting. Apparently this is much stronger stuff and from what I can tell is extremely solid.



    Tomorrow I will head to Mars Lumber to see about some wood for all of the early tasks (while still upside down)
    For the keelson, one wood that came highly recommended was Cypress.
    Apparently it is relatively easy to work with, available in high quality and very rot-resistant.

    C.
    Last edited by cmosheh; 02-26-2016 at 06:16 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    I'd say that John's centerboard case is plenty strong enough. He sails on some big water with no problems. Also, I witnessed his capsize test where he flipped the boat several times, standing on the centerboard to get her upright. The C/B case held up fine.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Nice pick cmosheh. I've been drooling over the Ilur for a few years now. At this point, I just want to finish my current boat so I can get starter on her. It will be fun to watch your progress.

    Have you seen the Ilur in Ireland blog on Tumblr? Awesome blog. He takes great pictures of his boat and sailing adventures around Ireland. It's a work of art really.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Yes, I certainly am familiar with the Ilur in Ireland blog.

    Just came back from Mars Lumber. Got a nice piece of Sapele for the transom and the false stem lamination.
    However I struck out on what I wanted for the keelson and false keel.
    Usually - so I am told - they have a wonderful supply of Cypress but they did not on this occasion.
    The supply of 4/4 Sapele was limited to 12' lengths. I really don't want to scarf that piece.

    They might get a new supply of either by the time I get to the point when I'll actually need it.
    For now I'll be busy for a while with taking the pieces of the kit apart.
    Obviously that is a piece of cake in comparison to cutting them yourself.



    My gosh, FV is not called Naval Architect for nothing. The utilization of the sheets of plywood is astounding.
    I have a hard time imaging that I could cut out these forms with that kind of efficiency.



    Right now my biggest challenge is managing my garage space.
    Back to business!

    Tomorrow with temps in the 60's (in Pittsburgh !!!) I might go out for a paddle.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Very cool! Thanks for showing the pix of the sheets before you took 'em apart. This seems well worth the extra dough, and should get you on the water sooner.
    It also may remove a bit of the anxiety one often gets when one is unsure of the designer's intent for a certain piece or measurement-that fear that "if I do this this way now, will it bite me in the butt later?"

    Have fun paddling!

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

  22. #22
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    When it comes to sailing I do get out on the water on my Johnson 18... this is a Roger Martin designed modern racing dinghy with open transom and retractable bow-sprit and asymmetrical chute. It is a fabulous design. I can single hand and have crew - but definitely not a third person. I have sailed this boat for 10 years and will be ready to sell it once I've finished Ilur. So I figure I've got one more summer with the JN-18.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Probably worth the cost of a couple of sheets of ply having the bits nested like that Cmos. Very neat

  24. #24
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Extracted 40 1/2 planks


    This proved to be a very handy tool:


  25. #25
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Erected the strong-back / girder... following John Hartmann's lead and installed casters to make my limited space more flexible:


  26. #26
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    The octagonal strongback supports are for tipping it to 45 degrees to get inside easier for clean up. I've not seen anyone doing that yet, but it does sound like an idea...Also of note, look how that self jigging strongback has the correctly spaced cut outs for the frames and molds to slot in, so they are perpendicular and spaced correctly. Mr Vivier has put an extra thought into every little piece.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 03-01-2016 at 12:40 PM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Edward, I suspect that the tipping to either side would be more easily done without the casters.
    I tried it without anything on it yet and indeed it does work when I stop the wheels.
    Not sure how I'd feel once the frame is set up.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Among the various tasks that should be done before erecting the station molds is the lamination of the false stem.

    Step 1 - glue up the inner stem made up of two outer 18mm and one inner 9mm part - my boat will have two mast steps so that I have the option of sailing the boat with a single balanced lug or as a lug sloop rig. However I did not glue in the mast steps since they might interfere with the glue up of the lamination.


    Step 2 - cut 14 50mm x 4' slivers - 3mm thick (1/8") - I took an intermediate step using steam heat by dry-fitting smaller number of slats in order to pre-bend them such that they might be more willing to submit to the curvature



    Step 3 - use taped up inner stem as the jig to laminate the false stem



    and finally the messy part - oy, and is it ever messy!
    Since I used the strong back as my platform for the glue up, I wrapped it in stretch wrap so that I would not have any dookey schmutz messing up the set up of the station molds later.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Just a quick update... still working on preparatory steps using the as yet open strong-back.

    Fabricating the CB trunk was one of those tasks. I decided to line with carbon fiber tape the slot into which the bronze 1/2" CB pivot rod will slide... some abrasion insurance if you will.

    Unfortunately I had at first ordered a 5/8" thinking that it was close enough to match the 14mm pivot rod called for by FV. Well, not so. Once I received the 1/2" rod all was good and it sat in the pivot slot snug as a bug.


    I made sure of that before gluing up the two sides of the CB trunk. I also followed John Hartmann's example and epoxy filled the inside of the truck with graphite for additional abrasion insurance.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Making the transom including the upper section was another job I just finished. Found a nice piece of sapele which I am planning to finish bright along with the sheer strake. We'll see how it all looks before I make a decision on this. For now that's my thinking...
    Last edited by cmosheh; 04-09-2016 at 09:42 PM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Looks like the Ilur is the new Sooty Tern. Very popular.
    The strongback being part of the kit is pretty cool.
    Good luck with your build.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Another task that's been keeping me busy is the gluing up of of strakes. It is noteworthy that FV has changed the design of the puzzle joints from the type that was still in use when John Hartmann built his Ilur. Perhaps his comments had something to do with this evolution of the design. The joints have a very snug fit and really don't leave any wiggle room.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    I glued them up in pairs to verify that each set had the matching curvature. So far each strake set has been spot on. The lower five strakes are being reinforced over the joint with a fiber glass patch which will face inboard.



    Last edited by cmosheh; 04-10-2016 at 04:50 PM.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Chris, very tidy work so far--nice going. I am not surprised to see changes like the finger joints in your planking. Vivier is relentless about circling back through designs to tweak and improve......sometimes for function on the water, sometimes for ease or consistency of build.....I know that the mast step is also configured a little differrently in your boat than in mine, to more easily allow the rig to be set with different mast rakes depending on what sails are being deployed.....

  35. #35
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Right John. If you recall our earliest communication when I was still considering to build Vivier's Minahouet instead of Ilur... aside from the obvious difference you pointed out one aspect that was most meaningful to me: The Ilur design has been around for a long time and over the years Vivier has drawn up a great number of changes, enhancements and improvements... in other words, this is a very mature and evolved design. The second mast steps (further back) is for the lug/sloop version. The kit came with both steps and I installed both so that I can then easily move the mast forward. I'll have to give the deck configuration careful thought. For the lug/sloop configuration, the deck goes a bit further back and the mast essentially fits into the deck much like yours, just further back. So Vivier's plans essentially would have me set up a second (round) slot for the simple balanced lug configuration (sans jib and sprit) which means that if I want to use the simple single sail, I'll have to lift the foot of the mast above the height of the deck in order to drop and step it. I could envision doing this slightly differently but for now I am not worried about those choices. I am just trying to get all of the task finished so that I can start to set up the station molds. Right now these are populating my basement in every nook and cranny.

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