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Thread: An Ilur in PA

  1. #176
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Still waiting on my order of bronze rudder gudgeons and pintles from Classic Marine.
    Apparently these are cast to order... and they are still waiting for the foundry.

    I am reluctant to complete the rudder assembly because the gudgeons are supposed to be bolted to the rudder head and that should be a lot easier to do before the assembly is screwed shut.

    John feel free to chime in


    Yesterday it was warmer and I could open my garage door so that I would have enough in-feed space on my little contractors table saw to saw my mast component logs. Each one will need to be scarfed and glued to mast length before the actual glue up can begin.

    In the meantime I pretty much finished the boom. Some pix to follow.

    I'll probably hold off with oiling and finishing of the boom until I actually start to rig the boat and see where exactly fittings for the main-sheet blocks and reefing will go. Planning to set up a slab reefing system and a very simple lazy jack system which will double as a quasi topping lift (when needed) so that I can reef without dropping the sail (and boom). Vivier designed only two reef points for the lug/sloop main because (1) the sail is smaller than on the other rig options and (2) part of the sail reduction is the dousing (or furling) of the jib. With a furler it will be possible to furl partially and thereby ensuring continued balance of effort.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Boom with half-jaw... the half jaw serves to prevent the boom from drifting forward.
    The luff of the sail is tensioned via a down-haul that runs through a hole (and around the actual boom) near the leading edge of the jaw close to the boom.
    The tack line of the sail runs into the grove at the very tip of the boom underneath it and into a bee hole. This will ensure that the jib sheets can't somehow get caught on the leading tip of the boom.



    The boom is to port and jaw on starboard. The top of the boom is intentionally flat and not completely round... as are the "flattish" sides.



    The jaw is glued to the boom and secured in addition with two 10mm dowels and two #10 counter sunk bronze screws capped with thickened epoxy.
    Last edited by cmosheh; 01-12-2017 at 04:30 PM.

  3. #178
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Puttering around with some horn cleats I expect to be needing... Sapele and Maple


  4. #179
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    ...figuring out how best to cut the scarfs on the 17' mast components



    ...then using the wedge to duplicate the correct angle on the counterpart



    It worked out pretty well...


  5. #180
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    That's a neat trick.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Making progress on the mast top now that the sheave and various bronze items arrived from Classic Marine.
    Still waiting for the second pintle.



    I opted to put a mast band at the top. This will make it a lot easier so set up a topping lift, possible lazy jacks and an attachment for the jib halyard.
    I had to work myself to a snug fit micro millimeter by micro millimeter.





    Last edited by cmosheh; 02-14-2017 at 10:20 PM.

  7. #182
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    The oar lock pads are about 1/2 as tall as prescribed since I am not making the traditional oars designed by Vivier. With the bronze oar locks in place the pads will just add a little more strength to the gunwale. Using the same Eucalyptus Grandis I laminated for the false stem. It is a very hard wood and provides a contrast to the Sapele gunwale.



    Last edited by cmosheh; 02-14-2017 at 10:19 PM.

  8. #183
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Looking great: love all the bronze gear.
    PeterW

  9. #184
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    I agree, looking really really nice.

  10. #185
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Hi, Chris--
    The boat is looking just lovely.....very nice work all 'round. To reply to post #176, yes, it would be well nigh impossible to attach the hardware to the rudder once you have closed up the rudderhead. When I did the final assembly of Waxwing's, I used a non permanent fixative (can't remember if it was sikaflex or 4200) and a few well placed screws so that I could disassemble the rudderhead for maintenance if need be.

  11. #186
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thanks John! I am following your lead. I'll take some pictures as I go.

    Once I have the gudgeons installed, I'll epoxy the cheek with the pivot disk and then use a multi-caulk sealant (a West Marine product) which they say is a little easier to work with (for removing) than 4200. I am drilling through the pivot disk and run through it a 5/16 SS carriage bold which can be easily tightened on one side with a star knob. The top assembly will also be attached with the caulk and screws.

    I am still considering some type of retainer to keep the tiller securely attached.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    I think how it's designed is the rudder pivot disc is not glued to anything. Its held by four screws: two wood screws placed from each side of the rudder head at 90 degrees to miss each other. To remove the rudder for refinishing, you just unscrew the four screws, and the rudder with the wood bearing drops out.

    Are people not finding that it works?

    Second question, I see Francois has a deeper rudder for the Yawl version and the Ilur kits come with this one CNC cut out. He says to cut it down for other versions. Would the other rigs benefit from a deeper rudder to reduce a bit of weather helm, or are they perfectly balanced with the shallower 'original' size rudder? I can't see myself taking a jigsaw to that perfect CNC round and cutting it down even for the misainier.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Edward, you are correct about the design of the pivot disc. As I was dry fitting the assembly, it seemed to me to be fussy--there is a certain (critical) amount of friction required from the rudder head cheek pieces on the rudder blade to let it pivot without binding, but with enough resistance so that the shock cord system will be enough to hold the blade fully down. It was actually a bit fidgety to get all of that working well.....I wound up epoxying the disc to one half of the rudder head assembly, and drilling a hole on-center, which houses a stainless bolt with a nylon cored stop nut--this lets me fine tune the friction more easily than with the four screws FV designed, though as you sussed, it will make dis-assembly for maintenance a more involved process. Not surprisingly, the shock cord tension is critical to holding the blade fully down when underway, and a non stretch hoisting line to get the raised blade as far out of the water as possible when the blade is up are also things which took tweaking over a couple of iterations before everything worked optimally. Additionally, there may a need at some point to access the bolts attaching the gudgeons, which nudged me to the assembly choices I made.

    With regard to the deeper blade, I have only sailed my lug yawl version of Ilur--it has a gentle and reassuring bit of weather helm which can be fine tuned with the mizzen; this past season, I added a Huntingford helm impeder so that I can be more relaxed when going forward to adjust snotter tension, coil a line, or rummage for a biscuit. In steady state conditions, with only minimal tension on the impeder, the boat will sail itself....mizzen trimmed for optimal helm balance, helm impeder lightly tensioned, and main eased to the point where it is thinking about wanting to luff--there is an area below the yard, above and behind the throat where the sail telegraphs her intentions......and she'll still round up in a puff if my hand is not on the tiller.
    as far as I know, there is as yet only one other Ilur that has splashed in this country. She is owned by Peter Mumford in the Boston area, and has the misainer rig and longer rudder blade. If he is following the thread, perhaps he can add his impressions....

  14. #189
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thank you John for your response to Ed. Obviously I had studied your thread in detail as I was thinking about the rudder assembly.

    I concur with Edward as well... the pivot disc shows to be attached with two screws 90 degrees off-set on each side of the cheek. This would make fine-tuning the fitting of the slight rudder friction inside the box quite difficult. I read the French instructions about the assembly which came with my plans and those were from an early iteration of the design (2009) whereas the technical drawings were from 2014 (showing the screws). In the 2009 version, nothing is glued together (other than the top unit) and instead each piece is screwed together. The 2014 drawings show only screws and no instructions about epoxy.

    I basically don't want to screw anything into plywood that's going to be exposed to a lot of water without first using the drill-fill-drill method. Trying to do that with the pivot disc and 4 screws and cheeks seemed excessively fussy. I did a nice big drill-fill-drill on the disc and two cheeks for the carriage bolt. I hope that it'll make the fine tuning later a lot easy. I guess I'll find out once everything is actually assembled.

    As for the larger rudder blade, I checked about that with Vivier and he suggested that I could use the larger version on my lug/sloop. So, that's what I am doing for now. If I find that the balance of the boat is off, I can always reduce the size of the blade later.

    I am definitely going to install a Huntingford helm impeder which is why I am leaving the tiller rather chunky and squarish underneath.

    Pictures before too long.

  15. #190
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    meanwhile, I finished the mast head.




  16. #191
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA



    Drill an oversized hole, and fill with thickened epoxy.
    Then re-drill to fit carriage bolt



    and preparing the rudder foil


  17. #192
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    This the super warm temperatures around Western PA in the past days I thought it might be timely to give the seat and floor boards an opportunity to soak in some lovin' Deks Olje:




  18. #193
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    looking great!

  19. #194
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Finally received the second pintle! The longer one will go at the bottom. Presumably to make it easier for the rudder to be mounted.


  20. #195
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    A couple of weeks ago I picked up the trailer. I specified the two wider keel rollers. It's been my experience with other boats that this types of rollers make it a lot easier to center the boat during retrieval. There she sits patiently awaiting her calling.


  21. #196
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Finally, two days ago I receive the lug and jib sails beautifully cut and finished by Douglas Fowler. The color is 'Creme' invoking the look of Egyptian Cotton. I'll have pictures once they are bent on. Right now I don't want to fully spread them out.

    BTW, Douglas had previously cut two other Ilur sails and he recently mentioned to me that he actually cut an extra Ilur Misainier lug sail. So, any current Ilur builders who are planning for the Misainier rig: he has one readily available.

  22. #197
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Quote Originally Posted by cmosheh View Post
    Finally, two days ago I receive the lug and jib sails beautifully cut and finished by Douglas Fowler. The color is 'Creme' invoking the look of Egyptian Cotton. I'll have pictures once they are bent on. Right now I don't want to fully spread them out.

    BTW, Douglas had previously cut two other Ilur sails and he recently mentioned to me that he actually cut an extra Ilur Misainier lug sail. So, any current Ilur builders who are planning for the Misainier rig: he has one readily available.
    will your Ilur be putting in an appearance at the Small Reach Regatta this year on Blue Hill Bay? just got an E-mail last call for entrants, 55 small craft signed up at the moment.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Yes, I am planning to make the trip provide my application is accepted. I signed up a number of weeks ago.
    I guess there is some type of confirmation process. I did not yet receive the packet with details.

    I believe that there will be at least one and possibly two other Ilurs in the mix.

    By then I hope to have all of the basic rigging options such as (precise location of blocks, fairleads and cleats) worked out.

    Just two days ago I tried to install the bow iron and one cheek cracked.
    I already sent it to the folks who made it and I trust they'll be able to fix it promptly.



    Mostly I am now preparing to reach the point where it makes sense to put the boat on its trailer. By early April I should be ready.
    Yokes for the mast during transport and storage as well as optimum system of securing the boat on the trailer occupy my thinking.

    Also, the rudder still awaits final assembly. I held off because while the boat is still sitting low to the ground, it was much easier to work out where exactly the pintles needed to be located using the rudder head without the pivoting blade.

  24. #199
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    ouch! thats not supposed to happen... does that fitting take all loads imposed on the bowsprit or just side loads... is there a bobstay?

    I dont think the SRR team has sent return info on the applications yet, I havnt gotten any either... and your well ahead of me as far as having your boat ready... I still have all foils to make, deck and hardware to put on and sails to make... and all the painting to do!!!
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 03-25-2017 at 04:49 PM.

  25. #200
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Well, Daniel, get busy and finish your boat then. What are you building? Is there a thread I can follow on your project?

    There is no bobstay on the sprit. It certainly would not be difficult to rig one but I don't think that it would be necessary so long as the bow iron does its job. At the fracture I noticed that the bronze was quite porous and brittle so I think that they'll need to use higher quality (very dense) bronze cheeks. I think they should be able to figure out what needs to be done. In the meantime I asked them what it would take to make an identical fitting in SS (as a backup).

    The sprit has a strong attachment at the boom but the bow iron will bear the brunt. The jib is not huge and I am installing a small boat furler to get it out of the way quickly. I've seen pictures of some Ilurs with the lug/sloop rig that have the jibe just flopping around on the deck and quite frankly after 11 years of have been spoiled by a furling jib on my Johnson18, I'll stick with that solution.

    Chris

  26. #201
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    So, yesterday I finalized the primary mast partner setup for the lug sloop configuration.
    These bronze rods are very beefy and will easily hold the mast where it belongs.
    They may also double as belaying pins as the case may be.

    I also just completed the leather on the mast to that deck and mast will be happy with minimal friction.
    I readily attest that John Hartmann's solution is probably the prettiest and saltiest mast partner I have seen but even if I had had a foundry near by to work with, I am doubtful that I could have pulled off such a beautiful job. So, instead I opted for the minimalist solution which is similar to F. Vivier's design.



  27. #202
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Between last night and today I installed the two pintles.
    For the top pintle I simply seated the pintle itself and the three bolt with Dolfinite. This provides a secure seal.
    On the bottom pintle I did not feel sufficiently comfortable with that arrangement so I did the following:
    Drill three smaller holes for the pintle and make sure I had a good fit with the rudder gudgeons.
    Happily my measurements were accurate and it all proved to be well aligned right away.
    I then removed the bolts and pintle and redrilled significantly larger holes.
    There we then filled with thickened epoxy.



    Subsequently I redrilled the bolt-size holes into the epoxy and then seated the two bolts and one screw with Dolfinite.

    Presumably this will be a solid arrangement with reduced likelihood of failure...
    ...sorry, I could have save readers the trouble and just said that I used the drill fill drill method.

    Chris

  28. #203
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Quote Originally Posted by cmosheh View Post
    Well, Daniel, get busy and finish your boat then. What are you building? Is there a thread I can follow on your project?

    There is no bobstay on the sprit. It certainly would not be difficult to rig one but I don't think that it would be necessary so long as the bow iron does its job. At the fracture I noticed that the bronze was quite porous and brittle so I think that they'll need to use higher quality (very dense) bronze cheeks. I think they should be able to figure out what needs to be done. In the meantime I asked them what it would take to make an identical fitting in SS (as a backup).

    The sprit has a strong attachment at the boom but the bow iron will bear the brunt. The jib is not huge and I am installing a small boat furler to get it out of the way quickly. I've seen pictures of some Ilurs with the lug/sloop rig that have the jibe just flopping around on the deck and quite frankly after 11 years of have been spoiled by a furling jib on my Johnson18, I'll stick with that solution.

    Chris
    Nice! I'll look for you at the SRR!
    I'm building Centennial.

    I am not very familiar with european style watercraft, is the bow sprit on your Ilur a "reefing bowsprit"? those that I have seen have a bob stay that simply goes slack as the sprit is retracted and comes tight when it is deployed.

    there is likely to be a fair amount of force on the bowsprit even with a small jib, I would be concerned about getting acceptable luff tension with out a bob stay... but I don't know the details of the Ilur design, do the sloop rigged boats seem to manage fine without?

    I am currently agonizing over my own bow sprit, which will have a light gauge chain bob stay... the original boat appears not to have side stays on the sprit but I am considering setting a larger jib than the tiny flying jib on the original boat, I would like to be able to fly a nice big reaching jib for off the wind work but wonder if my sprit will be up to the side loading of a big jib flogging when the wind picks up.

  29. #204
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Really enjoying your build so far. Such a beautiful design and excellent craftsmanship. In your picture on post #198 showing the bow iron crack it looks as though you used oval countersunk head style screws? I would think that may partially explain the failure as well as the porosity you noticed. I'm thinking, and maybe someone else may have a better suggestion, perhaps use a through bolt with a nut and washer. It may not be as clean looking, however it would avoid the lateral force on your hole caused by that counter sink angle on the back of the screw head. It has the added advantage of not relying on the threads into wood for strength. Compressing the whole stem head in a sandwich of bronze. Just a thought. Otherwise, I'm in awe. John

  30. #205
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Yes, John, you are right that I should have used a different screw style and a bold is definitely an option as well. However, I really had not yet torqued the screw and it just cracked. So, I am quite sure that the main reason for the failure was in the brittle consistency of the bronze cheek. All of my other bronze pieces are countersunk screw "sockets" so quite frankly I just did not think it through. On the other hand, I am glad it broke at this point rather then while in use.

    Daniel, the rig is unstayed. No shrouds and no separate forestay. The jib used dyneema for a luff "wire". I could picture a dyneema bobstay if I feel that I need to increase the luff tension. This is the newest iteration of the Ilur design and based on everything I have seen in the precision of the plans and the experience with many of these boats sailing some pretty rough waters of the Bretagne, I trust that the designer knows exactly what he is doing.

    This is obviously not a high tension rig except for the luff of the lug sail. Even so, by all accounts, the boat can get pretty close to the wind.

    Once I have her in the water I will certainly report on my experience with this rig.




  31. #206
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Today with the help of two dear friends, Clarisa was hoisted onto her wheels. After some minor adjustments, she settled into her new home quite nicely.






  32. #207
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Here is a closer look at the rudder
    For now I am leaving some of the Dolfininte squeeze out around the pintles.


  33. #208
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    This was the first time I had an opportunity to step the mast.
    Everything seemed to fit perfectly.
    I'll still have to determine a mast lashing pattern and style before I trim the lashing.
    The halyard temporarily runs through the block near the foot of the mast.
    This block will be part of the downhaul assembly which is controlled via a purchase system along the port side of the CB trunk.


  34. #209
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Awesome! Getting really close now. I found working on the rigging pretty fun. Makes you feel like a real sailor!

    Congrats!

    Mike
    "near it, a small whale-boat, painted red and blue, the delight of the king's old age."

  35. #210
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    Default Re: An Ilur in PA

    Thanks Mike!

    Yes, I really look forward to the rigging part. I am waiting for the bow iron and I'd really like to have my mainsail bag before I take the drive to the lake an hour away. With any luck I might be able to do it this next weekend. I'll take pictures and report back.

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