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Thread: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    That one looks like the solution, then. But I thinking of Pocket Change and here I found it, at the bottom of a discussion about lug rigs:

    http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boat...-lug-rigs.html

    And the description:

    Pocket Change, a proposed "budget" version of PocketShip, is also a lugger, with a yawl rig. Scarcely any sailing hardware at all is needed. This one would give PocketShip a real fight once in awhile. [Update January 2015: This little sketch of "Pocket Change" has generated a startling amount of email. I think it's a design worthy of completion. But alas, quite a bit of development work remains and there is currently no timeline for a release. Click on the image for more detail.]

    --- But I guess this would also be for a single-hander now that I review its design again: 16.5 feet by 5 feet 8 inches, and double-ended. In planform It reminds me a bit of the Payson "Windsprint" sharpie but Pocket Change has plumb topsides, deeper hull, and water ballast (I was given a Windsprint hull and have fantasized about a small "reclining headroom" cabin for it. -- Wade

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Some of you may know that my other craft is that of a singer. "Autum Leaves" is one of my favorite numbers and as such, I would have hoped that the boat of that name would be enchanting to the mind and eye as well. Sadly, although the deck plan is appealing in its form and layout, alas the hull with its flat sides and bottom are an insult to the laws of hull form hydrodynamics! This will be a miserable boat to put to sea in! The motion will be extremely negative as will be the sound of the hull slap!
    Jay

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Jay, that's a very negative view indeed. My friend was very happy with his Matt Layden Paradox, a very similar hull shape.


  4. #39
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Maybe people are more excited about LongSteps?

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    I would have to agree. Longsteps is a very exciting prospect indeed.

    Brian

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Sorry guys I can't buy it! Going to weather in a chop will be the noisiest and wettest point of sail for this boat. The motion will be miserable as well.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-14-2016 at 02:29 PM.

  7. #42
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    Having just plunked down the money for Welford's Long Steps design, l get the appeal of building it but the curiosity of how well Autumn Leaves would sail drives my imagination wild and I love the salty looks and the nod towards Bolger's work. LS would be much lighter, have less wetted surface for easier rowing, and an unstayed rig that can be struck and the masts stored. AL would feel more solid and ship like with its 600 lbs. of lead and self-righting abilities. I like both designs very much but they really do have very different personalities.


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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    The narrowness will mitigate some cranky habits of this hull form but won't help her ultimate stability.

  9. #44
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    What about the 600 lbs. of lead? That sure will.


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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    That's a very handsome design by Mr Harris. Square boats aren't all bad, but probably the longer and leaner the better. I've always been intrigued with Bolger's "Economy Seagoing Cruiser."


  11. #46
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Another "square" boat....the 510!


  12. #47
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    ^ flat bottom?

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    ^ flat bottom?
    Arc

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    The International 510 was an off shoot of the 110s and 210s which are popular boats in Marblehead and other ereas of the East Coast. They are poplular one design racers. Only one 510 was ever built. Some seven hundred or more have been built of the 210 and smaller 110 boat designed by Ray Hunt back in 1939. It proved to be popular because it was simple to loft and build using plywood and therefore inexpensive. Due to lack of deadrise, and the wall topsides, the hull has virtually no stability in its hull form, depending on an external ballasted fin keel and human weight shifting plus trapeze work to remain upright. I skipper raced one in S. Ca back in the early sixties and noted that it was a bit touchy in wind gust balance and pounded annoyingly in our Pacific Chop. Being narrow of beam and with low wetted surface, it went like stink but was also a very wet boat to sail. We had one in Port Townsend for a while that was in need of repair so I was never able to take her for a sail. I think it succumed to plyrot.
    To my thinking 110 and 210 boats fall into the category of a star boat which is a vehicle for acrobatically inclined sailing, fun but a bit of a workout! I actually prefer a Finn, Internatinal 14 or Thistle as it will plane and is more fun and no more taxing as to human energy to sail.

    Since only one 510 was ever built I am guessing that the motion and hull slap was a bit too much for the idea of making a pleasant overnight racer cruiser of that design.
    One has to admit that the sheer plan of these boats is really nice even if the rest of it is square. Remember that pretty is not always a factor for popularity or the VW Bug would not have taken on so well.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-15-2016 at 02:16 PM.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Interesting possibly,practical maybe, but how anyone can say that is lovely is beyond me!

  16. #51

    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Peter
    I was wondering if you had any more info on Theresa II. Judging on the sail area she maybe bigger than what I am looking for but she is beautiful.
    ShorelineJohn

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    The International 510 was an off shoot of the 110s and 210s which are popular boats in Marblehead and other ereas of the East Coast. T...
    --- Just for interest ...., I have a friend in Texas who had a 110 and loved it (somehow not going aground in all that shallow water). He loved it so much that decades later he designed a sailing canoe-ish boat for the Everglades Challenge that was an expression of the 110 hull. It ended up being ~19 feet and having a slight arc bottom with closed-cell foam glued inside the bottom for flotation (I think he used Andersen Bailers to clear the hull), and double leeboards. It was a usefully deep hull (20 inches?) about 40 inches wide, and worked well with just intelligent meat ballast on the side decks. -- Wade

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    It is up to the user to decide if a certain boat fills his or her needs. He who listens to too much good advise runs the risk of making other peoples mistakes.
    My own observation of the 110 and 210s other than the ability to build a simple and economic vessel is that it performs best in conditions that are suited for its design. It is a fast sailer on a broad or close reach but a bitch to weather unless you enjoy being drowned by every fifth wave and slam banging home again!
    Jay

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    "... lack of love ..."

    I think it a truism that all cruisers look/are slabsided alongside or at a mooring - and not to their detriment!

    This one's rig and topsides will have aficionados coming from all over.

    Sure she may be a bit awkward working to windward in a thrashing sea - but who will be there to notice - and the skipper will be preoccupied. I am a fan of jib-headed rigs for effectively getting to weather. Provided the hull has the power and the foils work ok, I think she will surprise some.

    She'll not lack for love imo.

    frank

  20. #55
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    Frank, I think you're on to something. I love the look of Autumn Leaves and she' such a solid little thing. People seem to completely miss the fact she's carrying 600 lbs. of lead in her belly plus a bunch of foam. That will certainly smooth out her motion quite a bit. It will also give her the momentum and stability to punch through a chop effectively. On the flip side, it does make it a bit difficult to push off the beach for the start of the Everglades Challenge so that's why I'll be building Welsford's Long Steps. Every boat is a bundle of compromises. You just have to figure out which bundle works best for you. Heck, for $50 it's still a great deal for a plans junkie like me. And who knows, I may end up building it someday.


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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Pocket Change


  22. #57
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    Sorry to be so negative about Pocket Change but it manages to delete everything I like so much about Autumn Leaves - the twin offset boards, the forward anchor well, and especially the self- righting lead. Ya know, a guy might be able to roll a heavy boat off a beach if he pried the bow up with a laminated spruce mast worthy of the task, and then threw some of those big yellow boat rollers underneath. That could solve Autumn Leaves problem


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  23. #58
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    With starting the Everglades Challenge.


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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    I really don't see Autumn Leaves as comparable to beach boats like Pocket Change or Long Steps. The layout and ballast mark it out more as a tabloid cruising yacht for one, that could bob contentedly on a mooring and be used for a bit of solitude like a garden shed or fishing shelter. The fact that it would probably sail quite handily is a pleasant bonus.

  25. #60
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    You're right of course as that's it's intended purpose. I was just trying to point out that if you could overcome that first initial obstacle of getting it off the beach, it would be a fun boat to do the Everglades Challenge in because it could certainly handle the thin water well and knowing that it would pop up again all on its own after a knockdown would be a comforting feeling especially if you figure out a way to board the boat from the outside. A SCAMP boarding sling would probably work well on Autumn Leaves or maybe you could climb the rudder. Being a Florida guy, I can't help but think of how well a boat design could do the Everglades Challenge and there is a whole bunch of thin water solitude available in the Florida Keys.




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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Plans are now available from CLC, $49.....

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl


  28. #63
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl


  29. #64
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Thats amazing rendering on that picture....wish i could bring my ideas to life like that.

  30. #65
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    This boat is sort irresistible for a Bolger fan. At $49, how can you go wrong? Love the way it's built in the finest "Instant Boat" tradition. And yes the renderings are incredible.


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  31. #66
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Bumping the thread here. One Autumn Leaves is well under way, and a second has been started. I'm planning on putting one together next year, but with a balanced lug cat-ketch rig. I've read all the criticism's listed above, and don't disagree much. But I expect to be exploring well sheltered backwaters most all of the time, where the extreme shoal draft pays off and the chop doesn't build enough to get annoying. The lack of a need for a motor is the final selling point for me. The Long Steps comparison is interesting, but I think the two boats are quite different and intended for very different styles of cruising. Long Steps for covering ground, Autumn Leaves for local gunkholing.
    -Dave

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    My opinion (for what it;s worth) is this ...

    You buy or build a yacht or boat because you fall in love with how it looks. With the best will in the world, the slab sided design looks like it was designed and built by a six year old. This is unjust and unfair but that is the first impression.

    Cunningly painting the vessel and/or putting rubbing strakes on it will barely disguise the slab sides. I actually like the concept and dote on double enders (yep - I'm as biased as the next guy but know that I am and where this love of the double ender derives from) but ultimately, trying to sell it will be frustrating and you will be hard pressed to recover any sort of return on your investment.

    Couldn't a LITTLE bit flare be worked into the bows and stern to make her look like a boat, not like a concrete lighter barge conversion?

    Note - Phil Bolger frustrates and excites me in equal measure. He has designed some beautiful boats and also some ones that defy categorisation. Intellectually and from a practical point of view, those boats are superb solutions to the problem but I come back to my first point - you fall in love with a boats looks and then, if you are halfway sensible, rationalise the decision. This will, I suspect be an ugly duckling that will be overlooked for other sexier sisters.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    So you dislike your square I phone, your rectangular TV or your modern square box house? Probably not. Maybe ask yourself why that might be?You're conditioned to see those products in that field as modern and aspirational.



    Aesthetically is it a matter of curves or good proportion? The Greek temples are monuments to rectangular proportion quite different to the form of a gothic arch. We looked at balance and proportion again with Edwardian and Georgian houses.

    You can generate a similar curve of areas with a Bolger box as you can with something curvy. Stability can also be a matter of beam and immersed bilge profile (in this regard box boats can be maximal). Dryness a matter of small entry angle. Flare can make a boat pitch more and slower. The bottom rocker on these boats can make them turn fast. Speed can come from length to beam to displacement ratio's (the most important factors) - look at a 'Bolger box' from above and you'll see it's long and thin. A pounding flat bottom - maybe not if its mostly immersed, maybe not again if its narrow, rockered and tapered. Uncomfortable in a seaway - maybe not of its a double ender with symmetrical fore and aft buoyancy - it will be more comfortable than putting a transom on it and having assymetrical fore and aft buoyancy.

    Build a long thin boat and things like LCB and prismatic matter less: they have less effect on speed. That also means in turbulent wave conditions they boats slow less as these variables dynamically change. Historically 4ft wide boards of timber were not available, so we are not conditioned to them thats all. It's probably harder task, and takes greater skill from a NA to design an effective 'box boat'. You should study Bolger's Micro - the rear drain well, the self righting, ventilation, how the wide planks/ sheets are reinforced in just the right position, the self draining, the inverted instability that makes that 16ft boat (still) remarkable. Its mostly historical conditioning that we believe western sail and power boats should be relatively short, fat and round. Without taxation on length things would be much different - look at the south america long thin low power but efficient motor boats up the Amazon for example. They don't need NA to make a short fat boat hydrodynamic because they know what 's more important - length to beam to displacement ratio. Its our naval architecture that's shackled to a market (middle class?) that's relatively conservative. Perhaps with a more powerfull sea, it's a mental evolutionary thing - better to retain the familiar and understood in case we get into trouble out there. So good 'box' boats like Micro's, Bobster's or this Autumn Leaves from CLC...I salute 'em.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 11-08-2017 at 04:59 AM.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Nice post Ed. I can only say that not all boxes are equal, and some may work better than others. Having owned a Waterwitch, i can say that i do not find Autumn Leaves ugly, or as someone wrote, something like a 6 year old kid would draw, i think that shows some people do not understand how difficult it is to design a successfull box.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Autum Leaves - CLC Canoe Yawl

    Usually boats look more svelte in the flesh than one expects after studying the plans. But when I've seen Bolger's sharpies on the water, they actually look more ungainly than they do on paper. They appear to sit on the water rather than in it, and they are generally not very beamy in relation to the height of their slab sides. They look like a good kick would flop them over. But I still like them, as one can come to like a flat-faced and overweight mutt.

    I suspect Autumn Leaves will not suffer from this visual shift when she goes from paper to water. The 3-D renderings show this, and her proportions are more to tradition than the more extreme Bolger boxes. Autumn Leaves has a point up front, for starters, and no big square transom on the back end. The rail at center is just 24" above the waterline, which extends for 18 feet. And the beam is a full 5 feet. Despite the slab sides, these are not proportions to make a boat look top heavy or chunky.

    But those slab sides do raise the paint scheme question. Battleship gray to reduce all appearances at any distance? Steam punk, covered with fake rivets and faux brass and copper? Could this be the inspiration?



    Naw, I don't think so. I'll stick with John Harris' plan, but perhaps a dark green in place of the austere black.
    Rig.jpg
    FYI, here's the rig I'll be putting on her:
    -Dave

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